Russ, you forgot to add that grading was (either):
tight so new coins were being "made", and dealers were grumpy.
or
finally accurate so new coins were being made, so dealers could go home and sell them to their sucke...er...well-heeled clients, who were clamoring for fresh merchandise.
Okay, I think we now have a complete report. The dealers who happen by this thread can form it in to paragraphs and post it on their sites. Oh, and in Laura's case, after a few words are mangled.
Russ, you forgot that add that true collectors are really supporting this market, unlike bull markets from the past.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Don't forget all the buy backs on dealer retreaded coins. There seemed to be a lot in the ANR sale. You could spot the really fresh coins that brought plenty, esp old rattlers. I noted the PCGS MS67 1877cc 25c fetching $20,000 and the 1854-0 half in PCGS MS66 reaching $28,750. Both pretty strong prices. The half didn't look to be an upgrade (based on the field tics in the photo)....not sure on the quarter though. Some of the gold prices were well above sheet. I almost wonder how they brought that much considering bids are way lower. This applied from $1's thru $20's. 10-20-30% over bid for a number of the generics gold coins. I was away for much of this week and it appears that slabbed gold took a nice jump, whether sheets reflect it or not.
I bought the half. It fetched over $20k at the Oliver Jung sale ... I didn't mind giving the owner a small profit over a few years. Where ya gonna find another that looks like this?
In general, approximately 70% of auction lots are selling at the major auction houses, about 30% are buybacks / not sold. This is the approximate number I have heard from several sources.
I am in Baltimore, in between spending the day on the enormous bourse floor, and waiting for the evening session of the auction tonight. The bourse floor was as big as any I can remember. Endless cases to look at, but the increase in quantity was mostly at the lower end to average material. No excess of new high end material, that's for sure ... and most of that material goes the auction route anyway. In fact, with all the auction lots (even at 70% sold, it is a huge number of lots), it's amazing to me that there can still be a large and active bourse. Dealers seemed to be saying that they were having a decent show. The market was mmore quiet at Long Beach, and is a little better now.
I didn't find much to buy on the bourse floor, and thesheer volume of stuff was daunting. I usually walk the floor very methodically, making sure I see every table and display case at least once, to make sure I don't miss anything. But this time that represented quite a task !! And I have never seen the PCGS table so busy as this morning ... they weren't even taking any more $100 show submissions ... you had to go for the $200 submission to have a guarantee of getting your stuff back here in Baltimore !!!
I did ask about True View ... the word at the table was that it is being discontinued, but that Phil will remain in their employ. I think it will continue to be available on a very limited basis. Apparently it wasn't working out from a logistical standpoint; it was screwing up the flow of orders through their operations pipelines. I would suggest that supporters of the imaging service should continue to send e-mails to David, Ron, and B.J. Searls.
Some of the usual suspects were seen on the bourse floor, but as I don't know a lot of the faces from here, I can't give you a list of board members that I encountered, although I bet there were quite a few.
I cannot comment from a dealer's stand point but I sure can from a collectors stand point. It was a really good show for me. Attendence seemed about average and I was blown away by the number of submissions at PCGS and NGC. In fact, just before I walked out at noon, NGC announced over the intercom that they are no longer accepting submissions at this show. Sucks to be you if you are planning to submit to NGC on Saturday or Sunday!
I spent about 45 minutes at the PCGS booth doing a very large TrueView submission (50 coins) right when the doors opened at 10:00. Then I was off to see Andy Skrabalak at Angel Dees. With the exception of Wayne Herdon, Andy is the only one who consistently has a large selection of high-end PCGS lincolns at shows (at least in Baltimore). After drooling over several coins that are way out of my league, I was fortunate enough to pick up a super PQ 1909 VDB in PCGS 66 for my lincoln set.
I have to say, PCGS was very accomodating to me at the show. The guy that helped me with my submission even let me add the 1909 VDB to the same submission when I came back an hour later. I really tried to voice my opinion about keeping the TrueView service but I'm afraid it fell on deaf ears. The guy was sort of laughing at me like the decision has already been made...it's a done deal after this show. I asked him WHY they were cancelling the service and he told me that the main reason is because it is holding up the flow of coins through PCGS. I guess we have to remain optimistic and hope that PCGS can come up with a way to still offer the service but not bog down the flow of submissions thru their doors.
Fun show to attend. As always, I can't be cooped up in there for more than about two hours!
You would have loved that 54-0 half even more in the Goldberg June 2002 LB sale (lot 2271) when it fetched a lowly $10,250. Had I not been saving my ammo for 2 halves that followed that one in 2002 I would have made the buyer (Jung? or Joe O'Connor) pay more like $12K for it. The coin did have a wonderful to look to it. Michael Riordan had a nice grouping of beautiful seated stuff in the sale and it was the worth the trip. When I saw how much that 54-0 brought in Jung I was kicking myself for letting it get sold so darn cheap. Once I saw it was bid at $20K via internet last week I knew I was out on it. I didn't remember it as the Jung coin or ex-Riordan collection until I just looked it up today. Funny that it didn't click with me to check before. Imagine, a near 3X increase in only 4+ years, not bad for a 5 figure type coin where a typical 65 is up maybe only 10-20% in the same period (and lower end coins are probably worth less now).
Personally PCGS should only offer the TruView service when the coins are NOT at PCGS for grading.
It should be a separate service and the coin cracked out only for picture taking purposes only. Then reslabbed in the same grade. A PhotoView service should be made available for coins that owners do not want to take out of the slab.
Prices are too low. Prices have to be raised to make sense. It is labor intensive and involves a lot of handling.
TDN and RR, That is a cool 54-O. Great look and frost+color. I was at the 2002 sale as well; thought the coin brought a good price for the time, and was saving the rest of my money for upcoming lots and Longbeach Sales/Show. A GREAT auction. Like you RR (did not know you were in the room!), bought a few nice coins that evening. Seems like a lot longer than four years ago .....
Premium quality fresh material was strong. Average material was weak. Attendance was average.
Russ, NCNE >>
Actually, I don't have any specific attendance numbers to report, but the show appeared to be more crowded than usual before I took off at about 1:30 today.
It was a great show... it looked as if business was good because I couldn't even get to some of my favorite dealers tables other than to say a quick hello... I did not buy a US coin today... I only sold them. that went fine. I bought afew world coins and that would be considered OT here so I will stop with that subject.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Personally PCGS should only offer the TruView service when the coins are NOT at PCGS for grading.
It should be a separate service and the coin cracked out only for picture taking purposes only. Then reslabbed in the same grade. A PhotoView service should be made available for coins that owners do not want to take out of the slab.
Prices are too low. Prices have to be raised to make sense. It is labor intensive and involves a lot of handling.
Those are my observation. >>
apparently, they heard you, oreville
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Keep your pants on. I'm going to write one after dinner. >>
too late... I'm already in comfort mode...
now hurry up with the Bic Mac and get to writing
edited to add... please excuse my rudenesss... I forgot to say please ....
mmm coins mmm good coins...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Youse guys are in Balamer now; please learn to speak the native tongue.
Go to war Miss Agnes, did you see all them pretty coins today hon. There was thousands of them; I thought I was gonna have a heart attack and they were gonna have to call an amblance for me hon. There were so many people I thought I was at an O's game, but then I membered it was winter and the Ohreeoles don't play during the winter hon. Otherwise we could go downey oshin for some good times right hon. The dealers seemed to be doing a right smart bit of bidness; I heard one yell "Ain't the beer cold". He musta sold a purdy penny to be that happy hon. The poleece were on hand to make sure no pockeybooks were snatched; that wouldda been turble for a torst to be apart of the vollince in the harbor doncha know hon. I walked the floor awhile takin in the sites and takin some pixtures till lunch time; I found a worshroom sews I could wrench my face and hands in the zink befor eatin a corm beff sammich hon. Afta lunch I gabbed with smore dealers and found them to be nice, not one was ignint to me ya know hon. All this made me tarred so I went back to my partment on Norf Abnew to rest.
<< <i>Youse guys are in Balamer now; please learn to speak the native tongue.
Go to war Miss Agnes, did you see all them pretty coins today hon. There was thousands of them; I thought I was gonna have a heart attack and they were gonna have to call an amblance for me hon. There were so many people I thought I was at an O's game, but then I membered it was winter and the Ohreeoles don't play during the winter hon. Otherwise we could go downey oshin for some good times right hon. The dealers seemed to be doing a right smart bit of bidness; I heard one yell "Ain't the beer cold". He musta sold a purdy penny to be that happy hon. The poleece were on hand to make sure no pockeybooks were snatched; that wouldda been turble for a torst to be apart of the vollince in the harbor doncha know hon. I walked the floor awhile takin in the sites and takin some pixtures till lunch time; I found a worshroom sews I could wrench my face and hands in the zink befor eatin a corm beff sammich hon. Afta lunch I gabbed with smore dealers and found them to be nice, not one was ignint to me ya know hon. All this made me tarred so I went back to my partment on Norf Abnew to rest.
<< <i>I bought the half. It fetched over $20k at the Oliver Jung sale ... I didn't mind giving the owner a small profit over a few years. Where ya gonna find another that looks like this?
A few hours ago , a buyer that works for a somewhat prominent coin company , dropped by our B&M on his way home from Baltimore . We talked a few minutes about the coin market in general , and I asked what was hot at the show . His answer was , ' Old US gold . Not the bullion so much , as all the Saints , Libertys , Indian and, classic designs in all denominations .
<< <i>A few hours ago , a buyer that works for a somewhat prominent coin company , dropped by our B&M on his way home from Baltimore . We talked a few minutes about the coin market in general , and I asked what was hot at the show . His answer was , ' Old US gold . Not the bullion so much , as all the Saints , Libertys , Indian and, classic designs in all denominations . >>
I saw little quality on the floor today, particularly in classic commems.
However, I have to take issue with you. I saw gold and silver bullion FLYING out of the place. Almost every dealer involved with them were reporting very heavy sales and I, personally, witness 10k and higher purchases from public customers.
Most dealers were holding firm on prices. A few were running scared. Cases in point.... I got an NGC MS 70 Early Release Buffalo for $1160. and a 10 ounce Silvertowne silver bar for $175. It was a matter of asking and looking. Opposite the place I got the Buffalo, a competitor was selling the MS69 for $1195.
Generic gold and silver, as I saw everywhere today, were the biggest movers and shakers at the show.
The show sounds like a real dud. Bullion? zzzzzzzzzzzzz. What about coins? If i want bullion I go on a website and buy it. Who needs a "coin" show for that. Glad I decided not to go.
<< <i>The show sounds like a real dud. Bullion? zzzzzzzzzzzzz. What about coins? If i want bullion I go on a website and buy it. Who needs a "coin" show for that. Glad I decided not to go. >>
I agree. It sounds like numismatic coins that don't depend on bullion for their value are of little interest to buyers.
<< <i>The show sounds like a real dud. Bullion? zzzzzzzzzzzzz. What about coins? If i want bullion I go on a website and buy it. Who needs a "coin" show for that. Glad I decided not to go. >>
I agree. It sounds like numismatic coins that don't depend on bullion for their value are of little interest to buyers. >>
We didn't bring any bullion, didn't buy any bullion and sold a bunch of coins.
<< <i>The show sounds like a real dud. Bullion? zzzzzzzzzzzzz. What about coins? If i want bullion I go on a website and buy it. Who needs a "coin" show for that. Glad I decided not to go. >>
I agree. It sounds like numismatic coins that don't depend on bullion for their value are of little interest to buyers. >>
We didn't bring any bullion, didn't buy any bullion and sold a bunch of coins. >>
I didn't bring any Bullion, buy any bullion and did buy some nice Barbers
Bear's "Growl of Approval" award 10/09 & 3/10 | "YOU SUCK" - PonyExpress8|"F the doctors!" - homerunhall | I hate my car
"We didn't bring any bullion, didn't buy any bullion and sold a bunch of coins." Glad to hear that. I would think most people on the coin board would rather talk about coins over bullion. Thanks
Reply to tcmitssr -- after reading your post , I can agree . What I should quantify , is that Delaware Valley prefers to buy old US gold and type coins .
<< <i>Reply to tcmitssr -- after reading your post , I can agree . What I should quantify , is that Delaware Valley prefers to buy old US gold and type coins . >>
Unfortunately, I've never found the high end quality, toned, PCGS classic commems I look for from Delaware Valley. No knock on them, but I don't think of them as serious players in the high end toned PCGS classic commem market. They may be very nice guys, and I may be wrong (if so, I'm sorry) but they also don't tend to put much of their merchandise out and I don't choose to sit and look through boxes. When I've visited their site, I haven't seen the grade/quality I'm looking for in terms of my set and the registry.
291fifth
Posts: 23,945 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Premium quality fresh material was strong. Average material was weak. Attendance was average.
Russ, NCNE
CG
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
tight so new coins were being "made", and dealers were grumpy.
or
finally accurate so new coins were being made, so dealers could go home and sell them to their sucke...er...well-heeled clients, who were clamoring for fresh merchandise.
Russ, NCNE
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Retail and wholesale sales were terrific, but we had a tough time buying new coins.
Sales were off, so we spent most of our time buying new merchandise.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
1877cc 25c fetching $20,000 and the 1854-0 half in PCGS MS66 reaching $28,750. Both pretty strong prices. The half didn't look to be an upgrade (based on the field tics in the photo)....not sure on the quarter though. Some of the gold prices were well above sheet.
I almost wonder how they brought that much considering bids are way lower. This applied from $1's thru $20's. 10-20-30% over bid for a number of the generics gold coins. I was away for much of this week and it appears that slabbed gold took a nice jump, whether sheets reflect it or not.
roadrunner
I am in Baltimore, in between spending the day on the enormous bourse floor, and waiting for the evening session of the auction tonight. The bourse floor was as big as any I can remember. Endless cases to look at, but the increase in quantity was mostly at the lower end to average material. No excess of new high end material, that's for sure ... and most of that material goes the auction route anyway. In fact, with all the auction lots (even at 70% sold, it is a huge number of lots), it's amazing to me that there can still be a large and active bourse. Dealers seemed to be saying that they were having a decent show. The market was mmore quiet at Long Beach, and is a little better now.
I didn't find much to buy on the bourse floor, and thesheer volume of stuff was daunting. I usually walk the floor very methodically, making sure I see every table and display case at least once, to make sure I don't miss anything. But this time that represented quite a task !! And I have never seen the PCGS table so busy as this morning ... they weren't even taking any more $100 show submissions ... you had to go for the $200 submission to have a guarantee of getting your stuff back here in Baltimore !!!
I did ask about True View ... the word at the table was that it is being discontinued, but that Phil will remain in their employ. I think it will continue to be available on a very limited basis. Apparently it wasn't working out from a logistical standpoint; it was screwing up the flow of orders through their operations pipelines. I would suggest that supporters of the imaging service should continue to send e-mails to David, Ron, and B.J. Searls.
Some of the usual suspects were seen on the bourse floor, but as I don't know a lot of the faces from here, I can't give you a list of board members that I encountered, although I bet there were quite a few.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
I spent about 45 minutes at the PCGS booth doing a very large TrueView submission (50 coins)
I have to say, PCGS was very accomodating to me at the show. The guy that helped me with my submission even let me add the 1909 VDB to the same submission when I came back an hour later. I really tried to voice my opinion about keeping the TrueView service but I'm afraid it fell on deaf ears. The guy was sort of laughing at me like the decision has already been made...it's a done deal after this show. I asked him WHY they were cancelling the service and he told me that the main reason is because it is holding up the flow of coins through PCGS. I guess we have to remain optimistic and hope that PCGS can come up with a way to still offer the service but not bog down the flow of submissions thru their doors.
Fun show to attend. As always, I can't be cooped up in there for more than about two hours!
You would have loved that 54-0 half even more in the Goldberg June 2002 LB sale (lot 2271) when it fetched a lowly $10,250. Had I not been saving my ammo for 2 halves that followed that one in 2002 I would have made the buyer (Jung? or Joe O'Connor) pay more like $12K for it. The coin did have a wonderful to look to it. Michael Riordan had a nice grouping of beautiful seated stuff in the sale and it was the worth the trip. When I saw how much that 54-0 brought in Jung I was kicking myself for letting it get sold so darn cheap.
Once I saw it was bid at $20K via internet last week I knew I was out on it. I didn't remember it as the Jung coin or ex-Riordan collection until I just looked it up today. Funny that it didn't click with me to check before. Imagine, a near 3X increase in only 4+ years, not bad for a 5 figure type coin where a typical 65 is up maybe only 10-20% in the same period (and lower end coins are probably worth less now).
roadrunner
It should be a separate service and the coin cracked out only for picture taking purposes only. Then reslabbed in the same grade. A PhotoView service should be made available for coins that owners do not want to take out of the slab.
Prices are too low. Prices have to be raised to make sense. It is labor intensive and involves a lot of handling.
Those are my observation.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
That is a cool 54-O. Great look and frost+color. I was at the 2002 sale as well; thought the coin brought a good price for the time, and was saving the rest of my money for upcoming lots and Longbeach Sales/Show. A GREAT auction. Like you RR (did not know you were in the room!), bought a few nice coins that evening.
Seems like a lot longer than four years ago .....
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>Here's a Baltimore report.
Premium quality fresh material was strong. Average material was weak. Attendance was average.
Russ, NCNE >>
Actually, I don't have any specific attendance numbers to report, but the show appeared to be more crowded than usual before I took off at about 1:30 today.
Well put Oreville. Well put.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Personally PCGS should only offer the TruView service when the coins are NOT at PCGS for grading.
It should be a separate service and the coin cracked out only for picture taking purposes only. Then reslabbed in the same grade. A PhotoView service should be made available for coins that owners do not want to take out of the slab.
Prices are too low. Prices have to be raised to make sense. It is labor intensive and involves a lot of handling.
Those are my observation. >>
apparently, they heard you, oreville
<< <i>Where are the Baltimore reports? >>
Keep your pants on. I'm going to write one after dinner.
<< <i>
<< <i>Where are the Baltimore reports? >>
Keep your pants on. I'm going to write one after dinner. >>
too late... I'm already in comfort mode...
now hurry up with the Bic Mac and get to writing
edited to add... please excuse my rudenesss... I forgot to say please ....
mmm coins mmm good coins...
If anyone's meeting up for lunch or dinner It'd be nice to meet some forum members.
Go to war Miss Agnes, did you see all them pretty coins today hon. There was thousands of them; I thought I was gonna have a heart attack and they were gonna have to call an amblance for me hon. There were so many people I thought I was at an O's game, but then I membered it was winter and the Ohreeoles don't play during the winter hon. Otherwise we could go downey oshin for some good times right hon. The dealers seemed to be doing a right smart bit of bidness; I heard one yell "Ain't the beer cold". He musta sold a purdy penny to be that happy hon. The poleece were on hand to make sure no pockeybooks were snatched; that wouldda been turble for a torst to be apart of the vollince in the harbor doncha know hon. I walked the floor awhile takin in the sites and takin some pixtures till lunch time; I found a worshroom sews I could wrench my face and hands in the zink befor eatin a corm beff sammich hon. Afta lunch I gabbed with smore dealers and found them to be nice, not one was ignint to me ya know hon. All this made me tarred so I went back to my partment on Norf Abnew to rest.
Slong for now see ya tamarra.
<< <i>Youse guys are in Balamer now; please learn to speak the native tongue.
Go to war Miss Agnes, did you see all them pretty coins today hon. There was thousands of them; I thought I was gonna have a heart attack and they were gonna have to call an amblance for me hon. There were so many people I thought I was at an O's game, but then I membered it was winter and the Ohreeoles don't play during the winter hon. Otherwise we could go downey oshin for some good times right hon. The dealers seemed to be doing a right smart bit of bidness; I heard one yell "Ain't the beer cold". He musta sold a purdy penny to be that happy hon. The poleece were on hand to make sure no pockeybooks were snatched; that wouldda been turble for a torst to be apart of the vollince in the harbor doncha know hon. I walked the floor awhile takin in the sites and takin some pixtures till lunch time; I found a worshroom sews I could wrench my face and hands in the zink befor eatin a corm beff sammich hon. Afta lunch I gabbed with smore dealers and found them to be nice, not one was ignint to me ya know hon. All this made me tarred so I went back to my partment on Norf Abnew to rest.
Slong for now see ya tamarra. >>
<< <i>I bought the half. It fetched over $20k at the Oliver Jung sale ... I didn't mind giving the owner a small profit over a few years. Where ya gonna find another that looks like this?
Bejing marketplace.
dropped by our B&M on his way home from Baltimore . We talked a few minutes
about the coin market in general , and I asked what was hot at the show . His answer
was , ' Old US gold . Not the bullion so much , as all the Saints , Libertys , Indian and,
classic designs in all denominations .
<< <i>A few hours ago , a buyer that works for a somewhat prominent coin company ,
dropped by our B&M on his way home from Baltimore . We talked a few minutes
about the coin market in general , and I asked what was hot at the show . His answer
was , ' Old US gold . Not the bullion so much , as all the Saints , Libertys , Indian and,
classic designs in all denominations . >>
I saw little quality on the floor today, particularly in classic commems.
However, I have to take issue with you. I saw gold and silver bullion FLYING out of the place. Almost every dealer involved with them were reporting very heavy sales and I, personally, witness 10k and higher purchases from public customers.
Most dealers were holding firm on prices. A few were running scared. Cases in point.... I got an NGC MS 70 Early Release Buffalo for $1160. and a 10 ounce Silvertowne silver bar for $175. It was a matter of asking and looking. Opposite the place I got the Buffalo, a competitor was selling the MS69 for $1195.
Generic gold and silver, as I saw everywhere today, were the biggest movers and shakers at the show.
<< <i>The show sounds like a real dud. Bullion? zzzzzzzzzzzzz. What about coins? If i want bullion I go on a website and buy it. Who needs a "coin" show for that. Glad I decided not to go.
I agree. It sounds like numismatic coins that don't depend on bullion for their value are of little interest to buyers.
<< <i>
<< <i>The show sounds like a real dud. Bullion? zzzzzzzzzzzzz. What about coins? If i want bullion I go on a website and buy it. Who needs a "coin" show for that. Glad I decided not to go.
I agree. It sounds like numismatic coins that don't depend on bullion for their value are of little interest to buyers. >>
We didn't bring any bullion, didn't buy any bullion and sold a bunch of coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The show sounds like a real dud. Bullion? zzzzzzzzzzzzz. What about coins? If i want bullion I go on a website and buy it. Who needs a "coin" show for that. Glad I decided not to go.
I agree. It sounds like numismatic coins that don't depend on bullion for their value are of little interest to buyers. >>
We didn't bring any bullion, didn't buy any bullion and sold a bunch of coins. >>
I didn't bring any Bullion, buy any bullion and did buy some nice Barbers
after reading your post , I can agree . What I should quantify , is that
Delaware Valley prefers to buy old US gold and type coins .
<< <i>Reply to tcmitssr --
after reading your post , I can agree . What I should quantify , is that
Delaware Valley prefers to buy old US gold and type coins . >>
Unfortunately, I've never found the high end quality, toned, PCGS classic commems I look for from Delaware Valley. No knock on them, but I don't think of them as serious players in the high end toned PCGS classic commem market. They may be very nice guys, and I may be wrong (if so, I'm sorry) but they also don't tend to put much of their merchandise out and I don't choose to sit and look through boxes. When I've visited their site, I haven't seen the grade/quality I'm looking for in terms of my set and the registry.