Ending Auctions early?

MorrellMan

There's a thread over on the registry board and one of the sub-issues is ending auctions early. Rather than jack that thread, I thought I'd start a new one to get a feel for our sentiments on this issue.

If an auction has at least one bid, I would only end it early if there was something suspicious going on with the bidding pattern, and I would try very hard to avoid taking that action.

I don't feel the same about auctions with no bids. I don't think anybody has the right to squack about a seller closing an auction that has no bids. If a buyer wants the item that badly that he would complain if it went down, he should place a freakin' bid. I don't think there is any obligation for a seller to maintain an auction solely for the purpose of snipers.

What do you think?

ldferg

i will end an auction early only if there are no bids. just my 2 cents.

mikeschmidt

<< <i>
I don't feel the same about auctions with no bids. I don't think anybody has the right to squack about a seller closing an auction that has no bids. If a buyer wants the item that badly that he would complain if it went down, he should place a freakin' bid. I don't think there is any obligation for a seller to maintain an auction solely for the purpose of snipers.

What do you think? >>



I disagree. Once you start an auction, you are making a contractual that you intend to sell the card to the highest bidder. You set the timeframe of the auction, and you are implying above that you would show favoritism to those bidders whom bid early, despite the fact that you said your auction would be open for a specified period of time.

You also very much risk a slippery slope. If you are willing to break your contractual rules and end an auction early because it has no bids, should you not then also be allowed to end your auction early if it has not received the bid amounts that you otherwise wanted?

I place bids on items whereby the final bid amount is sometimes a HUGE function of the bid with an hour to go. 2x, 3x, 5x and even 10x what it was before. Sellers should love snipers who are willing to place ridiculous bids on their item at the end of the auction. The buyer gets something they want for an amount they bid, and the seller often realizes a huge multiple than what they otherwise may have.

An auction is precisely that - an auction. Both sellers and buyers are bound to the rules of an auction. If you don't like the rules of an auction - it is very easy to have fixed-price listings. However, if you are trying to reap the benefit of fixed prices listings [e.g. you get to end whenever someone reaches your target price] and the benefits of an auction [e.g. specified period of time, but it goes to the highest bidder, no matter how high the bids go], you are essentially taking away a benefit from bidders. All in all, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you want to end early, then just do fixed price auctions. But DO NOT be a seller who breaks their contractual promise of holding an auction.

~ms

lawnmowerman

Imo, you can end an auction whenever you want. If it has bids or no bids. Its your item.

I know that some get upset if an auction is ended early ( I know I have) but we dont know the circumstances or the reasons why.

matt

ArchStanton

I don't think there is a moral or legal dilema if there are no bids. However, I have never ended an auction early. Every time I have had an offer to end an auction early, the final selling price was better than any offer. I am not talking about lowball offers either.

MorrellMan

<< <i>I disagree. Once you start an auction, you are making a contractual that you intend to sell the card to the highest bidder. You set the timeframe of the auction, and you are implying above that you would show favoritism to those bidders whom bid early, despite the fact that you said your auction would be open for a specified period of time.

You also very much risk a slippery slope. If you are willing to break your contractual rules and end an auction early because it has no bids, should you not then also be allowed to end your auction early if it has not received the bid amounts that you otherwise wanted?

~ms >>



Marc - you raise the perfect counterpoint, and I agree almost fully with what you say. However, picture a live auctioneer. He has brought up an item, started the bidding, looked out to the audience, and he sees Mt. Rushmore. Does he have an obligation to keep the auction open until he finally has a highest bidder? I don't think so.

The only part of your points I disagree with is the favoritism. I don't see it as favoritism; I see it as recognizing someone has an interest in the item. In my experience, I've set snipes for auctions with previous bids and had the snipe not go off because the seller decided to bring the auction down for lack of interest, or for whatever reason. I get angry, upset, frustrated, you name it, but I always figure it's my own fault for not registering a bid. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would never send a message to a seller asking him how dare he close an auction for which he had no bids for almost 7 days, when I was hiding in the bushes ready to pounce at the last minute. To me, that's the price I pay for sniping and I wouldn't do it/have it any other way.

XanaduNow

I'll second what Matt said. I don't sell much but when I did I never ended an auction early. I have been a part of some odd auction-ending behavior on the buyer end.

I don't ever ask a seller to end an auction early. As a buyer I see it as being somewhat rude and inappropriate. Recently, a seller had a few auctions up for raw cards with opening bids of $24.99 each and BIN prices of $34.99 for three auctions. I had been watching them all week but the opening bids were just a tad high for what I was willing to pay. All three auctions ended without a bid and I had won another auction from that seller around the same time those three ended. I sent the seller a message stating that, if he'd like, I'd be happy to include an extra $60 with my payment for the three cards that went unsold.

He responded that it's against eBay policy and, therefore, wouldn't participate. I told him that I both understood and respected his stance. He relists the three items and they immediately get an opening bid from a new member with virtually no feedback. The bottomline is that he's the seller and therefore has complete autonomy as to what he sets the opening bid at but I just couldn't understand why he wouldn't just relist with an opening bid of $20 each and give the market another week to chew on them.

Another time I messaged a seller about a set he had in his store. I asked for scans for the four ket cards in the set. I never got a response and the item was removed 6 hours later.

In both cases I never understood the behavior on the part of the seller but I don't feel slighted or that they acted inappropriately. They're the owners and can choose to do what they wish with their items.

Arthur

Boopotts

<< <i>Imo, you can end an auction whenever you want. If it has bids or no bids. Its your item.

I know that some get upset if an auction is ended early ( I know I have) but we dont know the circumstances or the reasons why.

matt >>



Well put.

mikeschmidt

<< <i>
Marc - you raise the perfect counterpoint, and I agree almost fully with what you say. However, picture a live auctioneer. He has brought up an item, started the bidding, looked out to the audience, and he sees Mt. Rushmore. Does he have an obligation to keep the auction open until he finally has a highest bidder? I don't think so.
>>



MorrellMan - I think it depends. Imagine that the auctioned item has an Opening Bid of $50. I would envision the auctioneer looking around the room saying "Do I have $50? $50 opening bid?" "No bids at $50? Anyone want in at $50?" and then finishing with "$50, no bids? Any takers? Going once! Going twice! Gone - no sale"

Whereas I see your 'ending early scenario' having the auctioneer stop after "Going Once" and then moving on to the next item.

I think it is somewhat disingenuous to compare live auctions to Internet/Telephonic auctions. But what would you [or anyone else] do if Mastro stopped 5-10% of their auction items a week before the closing date because they had not received any bids? I am sure that all hell would break loose, if not lawsuits.

~ms

MorrellMan

<< <i>I think it is somewhat disingenuous to compare live auctions to Internet/Telephonic auctions. But what would you [or anyone else] do if Mastro stopped 5-10% of their auction items a week before the closing date because they had not received any bids? I am sure that all hell would break loose, if not lawsuits.

~ms >>



MS - I don't think there's anything disingenuos or crafty in comparing live auctions to internet auctions, since live auctions really are the only model one could base comparisons on anyway. Certainly there are differences - a live auctioneer who gets no bids at $50 often has the flexiblity to drop his opening and ask if he has any bidders at $25? or $10? or $5? I think it's a bit ingenous to compare a 7 day ebay auction to a Mastro auction, with $75 registration fees, mass catalog mailers and promotion that garners the attention of the entire collecting universe. Although I see your general point, the examples you use are too far removed from the kinds of auctions or scenerios I'm referring to.

jaderock

I think most of the times, people end listings early because they want ot avoid the closing fees...anyway here are some stats from the month of September in comparison to last September. All stats are for the Sports card/memorabilia section of ebay.

53 % increase in Auctions ended with NO BIDS

12 % Decrease in auctions started!

Overall sales stats down 27 %

A Jordan autograph #/23 sold $1059.00 in Spet 2005, while this year a card similar sold at $643.

an Alarming stat..
16 % increase in auctions ended early!


Another alarming stat
Just from Sports trading card Category
1.9 % of all auctions started were taken down and removed by EBAY at the request of other members.

NickM

Comparison to Mastro or any other consignment auction is inapt IMO. They have a specific responsibility to all consignors not present in the case of an eBayer auctioning his own items.

I agree with Mark rather than Marc. While it's true that Once you start an auction, you are making a contractual that you intend to sell the card to the highest bidder. , nobody has yet bothered to accept by making a bid.

Nick

RipublicaninMass

I go to a lot pf property auctions and aside from the "plants" (shills form the banks) there is either a starting bid or an "absolute auction". Absolute means it will sell if the bid is a dollar.

I wont end auctions early, though my 1st ebay sale I did. Lot of 30 world wide gum commons vg-ex had no bids going intot he last day woth a LOW reserve and I had no feedback. I learned to grade them, sell them, establish feedback, then sell raw and graded. DONT SELL RAW IF YOU HAVE NO FEEDBACK!!!

djspann

I can absolutely understand why a seller would end an auction early with zero or few bids. Obviously, a lot of people snipe on eBay, and I've seen some cards/sets for which nearly everyone snipes, and there are no bidders until the last 10 seconds of the auction.

As a buyer, I nearly always submit a bid early, even if only a cheap one, just to show the seller that there is interest, and I'll probably snipe. Further, it helps me, because I can keep items on my bidding list, and not on my watch list that can sometimes be near capacity.

I don't know that there is a right answer to this question, and those of us with fewer sales on eBay are even more inclined to pull the auction if there are few bids. Still, even as a buyer, I like to see at least a few low bids on a card, just to see what I'm up against. Then, I set or don't set my snipe appropriately.


Doug

Estil

I always try to wait until the last few minutes to bid (snipe); I understand how "making an early bid to let the seller know there's interest" idea makes sense, but I'm always afraid that it'll only attract other bidders; not what you want to do if you want to get the set (eh, cards) for as low as possible.

rbdjr1

<< <i>Comparison to Mastro or any other consignment auction is inapt IMO. They have a specific responsibility to all consignors not present in the case of an eBayer auctioning his own items.

I agree with Mark rather than Marc. While it's true that Once you start an auction, you are making a contractual that you intend to sell the card to the highest bidder. , nobody has yet bothered to accept by making a bid.

Nick >>



If, what u say is true, " you entered into a contractual agreement" by listing on ebay.

Well, ebay does allow sellers to "end their auctions early" if they so desire (i.e., example: "item is no longer available").

So, in my opinion, by ebay allowing sellers to "end their listings early", would end any "so-called" contractual agreement between bidders or potential bidders, and the seller.

Still, "pissing off" buyers, may not be good for business, but I have to agree with matt, as long as ebay allows sellers to end their listings early, it is ok (and legal) to do so!

rd


Edit: If some sellers, feel a moral obligation to bidders or potential bidders not to end their listings early? Well then, so be it!

Estil

I think it's up to the seller themselves whether to end an auction early. Obviously no seller in their right mind is going to end an auction early if they're getting several good bids, but if they're clearly not going to receive any bids, then I see nothing wrong with a buyer offering to buy the set (I mean cards) for maybe a few dollars over the starting bid so they and the seller don't have to wait another 4-5 days or something for the auction to end, plus the seller saves on the final value fee too.

In the end, it's their stuff, not Ebays. And all that stuff about "It's against Ebay policy"; we all know that Ebay just says that so they won't miss out on their fees. Just like they say not to accept outside offers for stuff; bulllarkey. I've asked sellers all the time if they have other related stuff they don't have listed; most (if not all) are more than happy to help out if it means they get to sell more stuff than they expected, and the buyer is happy too because they get closer to completing their collecting projects for less shipping cost.

Remember folks, Ebay couldn't care less about "protecting buyers/sellers"; they're only looking out for number one (their fees); plain and simple.

mikeschmidt

rbdjr1:

If you end it early to sell the item offline, you are VERY CLEARLY circumventing Ebay's fee schedule [e.g. not paying Ebay their fair share of whatever you sell the card for that you would be charged if the sale occurred], and you are absolutely violating your contractual agreement with Ebay.

~ms

baseballfanatic

<< <i>rbdjr1:

If you end it early to sell the item offline, you are VERY CLEARLY circumventing Ebay's fee schedule [e.g. not paying Ebay their fair share of whatever you sell the card for that you would be charged if the sale occurred], and you are absolutely violating your contractual agreement with Ebay.

~ms >>




When Ebay allows shills to continue bidding for months after they have been reported, allows NARU users to come back over 200 times in one year with new ID's and allows them to continue after being reported, allows outright scam auctions to run to completion when they are reported and allowed to remain, this type of neglect for their own rules gives sellers every right in the world to bend the rules the same way. Ebay is just a blind eye money making machine for blind eye investors........

MorrellMan

<< <i>

<< <i>rbdjr1:

If you end it early to sell the item offline, you are VERY CLEARLY circumventing Ebay's fee schedule [e.g. not paying Ebay their fair share of whatever you sell the card for that you would be charged if the sale occurred], and you are absolutely violating your contractual agreement with Ebay.

~ms >>




When Ebay allows shills to continue bidding for months after they have been reported, allows NARU users to come back over 200 times in one year with new ID's and allows them to continue after being reported, allows outright scam auctions to run to completion when they are reported and allowed to remain, this type of neglect for their own rules gives sellers every right in the world to bend the rules the same way. Ebay is just a blind eye money making machine for blind eye investors........ >>



I gotta agree with Marc on this one. I was taught that two wrongs don't make a right. We forget that this is Ebay's venue. Without them, this lovely 24/7 card store with almost everything available for the asking would not be around as we know it. They are entitled to having their rules observed and their fees paid. Saying the cops don't catch every criminal is no reason to take the law in your own hands.

Boopotts

An auction is precisely that - an auction. Both sellers and buyers are bound to the rules of an auction. If you don't like the rules of an auction - it is very easy to have fixed-price listings. However, if you are trying to reap the benefit of fixed prices listings [e.g. you get to end whenever someone reaches your target price] and the benefits of an auction [e.g. specified period of time, but it goes to the highest bidder, no matter how high the bids go], you are essentially taking away a benefit from bidders. All in all, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. If you want to end early, then just do fixed price auctions. But DO NOT be a seller who breaks their contractual promise of holding an auction.

~ms




This may be true. However, it is the auction house that decides the rules for the auction, which means that if the auction house (in this case Ebay) allows for a seller to pull an auction early then no part of the contractual agreement has been violated by the seller.

In any case, I'm not sure how fruitful it is to try and introduce an ethical component to this argument. These are just auctions, after all, and it seems you could argue in circles on a subject like this. In the 'real world' I think the consequence for pulling an auction early is that bidders may be less inclined to bid on your goods in the future, which means there is a cost to pulling auctions early. If this cost outweighs the dollar cost a seller suffers from a poor hammer price then auctions don't get pulled. If it doesn't, then they do. In either case, the world moves on. I'm not sure how the construction of a normative argument helps move the debate along.

rbdjr1

<< <i>rbdjr1:

If you end it early to sell the item offline, you are VERY CLEARLY circumventing Ebay's fee schedule [e.g. not paying Ebay their fair share of whatever you sell the card for that you would be charged if the sale occurred], and you are absolutely violating your contractual agreement with Ebay.

~ms >>



I just read again, ebay's section about ending a listing early. If you are ending a listing with a reserve, there are rules about ending your listing listing early because the price was to low, that is called: reserve fee circumvention.

I see nothing about ending your action early that violates ebay rules, if the item is no longer available for sale, in fact that is all you have to tell them (ebay):

"THE ITEM IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE FOR SALE".

ebay does not ask you why the item is no longer available, all you have to do is tell them it is no longer available, period. that's it!

If you abuse ebay's rules, i would think that is a different story. For example, you had 50 listings and ended 40 of them early, and continued this type of selling behavior over and over, ebay may question a seller for abusing their selling rules.

But if a seller wants to end a listing early, again the seller needs to let ebay know one of the following:

The item is no longer available for sale.
There was an error in the starting price or reserve amount.
There was an error in the listing.
The item was lost or broken.


Remember, ebay still earned the listing fees for that item, even if the seller ended the listing early, so ebay still makes money on the item, no matter what.

rd



edit: P.S. What does it mean "the item is no longer available for sale"? As ebay does not ask for more information than that?

DerekD

<< <i>edit: P.S. What does it mean "the item is no longer available for sale"? ebay does not ask for more information than that. >>



This, I believe goes back to the early days on ebay. Ebay allowed (allows) the seller to still try to the sell the item outside of the ebay environment, ie, in a retail store, local newspaper ad, etc. Of course, it was not intended for people to find interest on ebay and then complete the deal outside of ebay and avoid fees. We all know that does happen, but I guess ebay doesn't want to eliminate the ability for a local sale.

They make it real easy, if you were to sell the item before the auction ended, you would put in the "item no longer available for sale" and that was it.

DD