Manhattan Project Silver Melt...are we being duped?
WoodenJefferson
Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭
Manhattan Project Silver Melt
I have always heard in the past and still hear to this date that US silver coins were melted down to provide wiring and buss bars for now famous Y-12 Plant located in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. It has always been the assumption that because of the vast amount of silver required to produce the U-235 Uranium used in first Atomic Bomb that the Numismatic hobby was permanently and altered there after.
I have yet to read where actual silver coinage from the U.S. Mint was involved to make the electrical components of the Y-12 Plant. My research does reveal that silver bullion was transferred from the US Mint to the project, used to assist the then involved Scientist in completing equipment for this historic event.
Can anyone out there confirm the actual use of coins melted for this project?
The amounts of silver from the US Mint are mentioned in the following articles. Interestingly, the silver was returned back to the US Mint (see last article)
Electromagnetic Separation of Uranium 235
Operator: Tennessee Eastman Company (Kodak)
February 18, 1943
Silver is the best electrical (and thermal) conductor, and is prized for electrical contacts in volatile environments because it will not arc or spark, even when tarnished. This makes it valuable in spacecraft and aircraft. During WWII, the Manhattan Project built an enormous processing facility in Oak Ridge, Tennessee called Y-12 to enrich uranium. Since the weapon-form isotope of uranium (U-235) is chemically similar to the much more common non-fissile variety (U-238), and is intermingled with it in nature, physical means are required to separate the two. The Y-12 facility contained several large racetrack-shaped electromagnetic separators or "calutrons," giant electromagnets that deflected the slightly heavier stream of charged U-238 particles into one collector and their slightly lighter U-235 cousins into another. Normally the windings for these would be made of copper wire, but copper was needed for war munitions. So the scientists borrowed 14,700 tons of pure silver from the Treasury to fabricate the wire and bus bars for the enormous magnets.
Credit: http://www.chicagosilver.com/silver.htm
Groundbreaking for the Alpha plant took place on February 18, 1943. Soon blueprints could not be produced fast enough to keep up with construction as Stone & Webster labored to meet Groves' deadline. The Beta facility was actually begun before formal authorization. While laborers were aggressively recruited, there was always a shortage of workers skilled enough to perform jobs according to the rigid specifications. (A further complication was that some tasks could be performed only by workers with special security clearances). Huge amounts of material had to be obtained (38 million board feet of lumber, for instance), and the magnets needed so much copper for windings that the Army had to borrow close to 15,000 tons of silver bullion from the United States Treasury to fabricate into strips and wind onto coils as a substitute for copper. Treasury silver was also used to manufacture the bus bars that ran around the top of the racetracks.
Credit: http://www.childrenofthemanhattanproject.org/HISTORY/H-06b2-1.htm
Not well known is a contribution made by the U.S. copper industry to the Manhattan Project during World War II. There was an urgent need for copper bus bars for the Uranium 235 extraction facility in Oak Ridge, Tenn. Because all available copper was being directed to the conventional war effort, a substitute material with comparable electrical conductivity was needed. (The electrical conductivity of silver is rated at 104% IACS, whereas copper is rated at 100% IACS, which made it a suitable substitute.)
Some 700 million troy ounces of pure silver (equivalent to today's ASTM B413 (Specification for Refined Silver) Grade 99.95 (UNS P07015)) were borrowed from the U.S. Treasury and shipped to the U.S. Metals Refining Company (USMR) in Carteret, N.J., re-melted and cast into pure silver wire bars. The wire bars were then shipped to Phelps Dodge's Elizabeth, N.J., facility for rolling into bus bars (equivalent to today's ASTM Specification B187, for Copper Bar, Bus Bar, Rod and Shapes). In the late 1970s, the silver bus bars were removed from service, returned to USMR for melting, refining, and casting as 1,000-troy ounce ingots and returned to the Treasury.
credit: http://www.copper.org/innovations/1998/11/astm.html
One of the Manhattan Project's Oak Ridge calutrons, which used several billion dollars' worth
of silver wire and connecting bars made from bullion borrowed from the US Treasury
Edit title: from Coinage vs Bullion to> Ever hear of this>Have we been duped?>are we being duped?
I have always heard in the past and still hear to this date that US silver coins were melted down to provide wiring and buss bars for now famous Y-12 Plant located in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. It has always been the assumption that because of the vast amount of silver required to produce the U-235 Uranium used in first Atomic Bomb that the Numismatic hobby was permanently and altered there after.
I have yet to read where actual silver coinage from the U.S. Mint was involved to make the electrical components of the Y-12 Plant. My research does reveal that silver bullion was transferred from the US Mint to the project, used to assist the then involved Scientist in completing equipment for this historic event.
Can anyone out there confirm the actual use of coins melted for this project?
The amounts of silver from the US Mint are mentioned in the following articles. Interestingly, the silver was returned back to the US Mint (see last article)
Electromagnetic Separation of Uranium 235
Operator: Tennessee Eastman Company (Kodak)
February 18, 1943
Silver is the best electrical (and thermal) conductor, and is prized for electrical contacts in volatile environments because it will not arc or spark, even when tarnished. This makes it valuable in spacecraft and aircraft. During WWII, the Manhattan Project built an enormous processing facility in Oak Ridge, Tennessee called Y-12 to enrich uranium. Since the weapon-form isotope of uranium (U-235) is chemically similar to the much more common non-fissile variety (U-238), and is intermingled with it in nature, physical means are required to separate the two. The Y-12 facility contained several large racetrack-shaped electromagnetic separators or "calutrons," giant electromagnets that deflected the slightly heavier stream of charged U-238 particles into one collector and their slightly lighter U-235 cousins into another. Normally the windings for these would be made of copper wire, but copper was needed for war munitions. So the scientists borrowed 14,700 tons of pure silver from the Treasury to fabricate the wire and bus bars for the enormous magnets.
Credit: http://www.chicagosilver.com/silver.htm
Groundbreaking for the Alpha plant took place on February 18, 1943. Soon blueprints could not be produced fast enough to keep up with construction as Stone & Webster labored to meet Groves' deadline. The Beta facility was actually begun before formal authorization. While laborers were aggressively recruited, there was always a shortage of workers skilled enough to perform jobs according to the rigid specifications. (A further complication was that some tasks could be performed only by workers with special security clearances). Huge amounts of material had to be obtained (38 million board feet of lumber, for instance), and the magnets needed so much copper for windings that the Army had to borrow close to 15,000 tons of silver bullion from the United States Treasury to fabricate into strips and wind onto coils as a substitute for copper. Treasury silver was also used to manufacture the bus bars that ran around the top of the racetracks.
Credit: http://www.childrenofthemanhattanproject.org/HISTORY/H-06b2-1.htm
Not well known is a contribution made by the U.S. copper industry to the Manhattan Project during World War II. There was an urgent need for copper bus bars for the Uranium 235 extraction facility in Oak Ridge, Tenn. Because all available copper was being directed to the conventional war effort, a substitute material with comparable electrical conductivity was needed. (The electrical conductivity of silver is rated at 104% IACS, whereas copper is rated at 100% IACS, which made it a suitable substitute.)
Some 700 million troy ounces of pure silver (equivalent to today's ASTM B413 (Specification for Refined Silver) Grade 99.95 (UNS P07015)) were borrowed from the U.S. Treasury and shipped to the U.S. Metals Refining Company (USMR) in Carteret, N.J., re-melted and cast into pure silver wire bars. The wire bars were then shipped to Phelps Dodge's Elizabeth, N.J., facility for rolling into bus bars (equivalent to today's ASTM Specification B187, for Copper Bar, Bus Bar, Rod and Shapes). In the late 1970s, the silver bus bars were removed from service, returned to USMR for melting, refining, and casting as 1,000-troy ounce ingots and returned to the Treasury.
credit: http://www.copper.org/innovations/1998/11/astm.html
One of the Manhattan Project's Oak Ridge calutrons, which used several billion dollars' worth
of silver wire and connecting bars made from bullion borrowed from the US Treasury
Edit title: from Coinage vs Bullion to> Ever hear of this>Have we been duped?>are we being duped?
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Comments
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
This coincidence made me respond to my own thread:
I just heard Robert Chambers @ 12:54 PM CST (games no on yet) refer to the Manattan Project where they (the US Government) melted 40,000,000 silver dollars when they were hawking Morgan Silver Dollars. (He did not say what silver dollars were melted, only that they were)
I'm not trying to push this issue, I relize it's Sunday and you need to relax, watch the game, but Did the Mint have on hand Morgan/Peace dollars, other coinage available in 1943 for this project?
CSI: I wanna know?
ty Mr. Kelso
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Why do we keep hearing about all these melts to hype Morgans/Peace...or any 90% silver minted coinage?
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Although I never saw silver, my grandfather who worked at Oak Ridge during the war did tell me that there were tons of silver being used for electrical purposes at the plant. It's interesting that while he was a mathematician and worked with the refining of uranium, he claims he never had a clue what the purpose of the plant was. That is until after the bomb dropped.
memory serves. It was used either at the predecessor of the Fermi lab or at a fac-
ility in the far southern Chicage suburbs.
I believe it was mostly silver dollars and was returned to the mint after the war.
Edited to add: Just looked at that picture and based on the position of certain things I think that was the calutron I actually did walk around.
If I get enough argument on this point, I will e-mail Robert Chambers of Coin Vault and ask him to expound on his statement in reguards to these type of silver melts.
I looked on ShopAtHome web page, Robert Chambers e-mail has been removed, I'll have to call SAH or e-mail Elliot to see if I can get is, he's still up there as a show host.
More info needed.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
TD
Silver is an excellent conductor--better than gold or copper. But they apparently weren't looking for improved conductivity but just a substitute for war-demand copper. Also, by using silver wires and bussbars, they sent a message to the personnel working on the project how important it was.
--Jerry
I'm not a nuclear engineer but I'd love to have one as well because I still love OR even though it got $$$$ed by Pete Domenici in the 80s and 90s. I do have some samples of the first in situ vitrification done in OR, though.
To comment on another thing, the people working on the floor didn't know what was going on because they were trained for only one task and one task only and they did it exceedingly well. They knew it was important but very very few people knew more than a few steps. In a way it is similar to how the currency plates are made. It takes several people to produce them and no one person involved in the process knows or is a master of all the steps.
casting as 1,000-troy ounce ingots and returned to the Treasury.
1000 troy oz = 1097.1428 oz /16= 68.57 lbs That's a big ingot of silver! I've seen and held the 100 oz bars, this would be awesome!
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i><AS project. Manhattan the from returned silver of Ingot an have to like would I engineer, nuclear a> casting as 1,000-troy ounce ingots and returned to the Treasury. 1000 troy oz = 1097.1428 oz /16= 68.57 lbs That's a big ingot of silver! I've seen and held the 100 oz bars, this would be awesome! >>
IF silver were still $5/oz I'd be ready to jump on one..... --Jerry
Although some of the silver was used to strike coins (note the large increase in coin production from 1934 onward) most was in bars as backing for paper currency.
dime
1930-P 6.7 mil
1931-P 3.1 mil
1934-P 24.08 mil
1935-P 58.8 mil
Quarters
1932-P 5.4 mil
1934-P 31.9 mil
halves
1933-S 1.7 mil
1934-P 6.9 mil
dollars
1928-P 360,000
1934-P 964,000
1935-P 1.5 mil
It appears this has creedence, I used Philadelphia "Mother Mint" for quantity minted, except for '33 Walker (Frisco)
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I'm afraid I'm not following your thoughts on this.
Any coins that might have been melted for the Manhattan Project wouldn't have been in collectors' hands in the first place. Can you expand on what you think the impact was?
Personally, I think the more relevent impacts on collecting have been the Treasury releases of millions of silver dollars in the early 60s and the presumed mass melting of silver coins in '79 and '80 (of course, that followed the mass melting of silver dollars in 1918).
IMHO, the ShopAtHome clowns will say anything in an effort to get the rubes to buy - doesn't make what they say either true or relevent.
Also, of course the mintage of silver coins increased after 1935 - the economy was recovering from the Depression and there was more need for coins in the economy.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
I have been in this hobby since 1965 and it has always been my contention, via word of mouth/newspapers/Numismatic magazines (all the media of the times, not much to go by... the internet has just had a positive boom to coin collecting) that there were several melts of silver coinage.
~Pitman Act of 1918 when 270,232,722 silver dollars were melted.
~Manhattan Project, tons and tons of silver used.
~The great melts in 1979 and 1980
and other melts within this century
I keep hearing/seeing this term Manhattan Project and that untold tons of silver from the US Treasury was melted in order for the production of Uranium.
I envisioned (1965) dump trucks full of silver coins being dumped into a smelter and reduced to ingots. What a loss to the Numismatic community, but it was for a good cause i.e.; the atomic age turned the edge in the war with Japan in the Pacific.
I keep hearing this terminology Manhattan Project used again, and with the internet you have instant access to all sorts of information. Well, I can't find a single thing linking coins being melted (which would have had an adverse effect on this hobby, if the Government did it once, they will do it again) and that it appears that it was nothing more than already acquired silver bar bullion that was used for this project. (most, the bus bars, of the bullion was returned to the Treasury, did not know that either)
I was happy that no coinage was used, but dismayed that we are still being led down the wrong path, history wise by or present day spokes people and media.
My point for starting the thread was to just get to the bottom of this "Urban Legend" once and for all..thanks for your contribution.
~Woody~
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Unfortunately, urban legends are always with us - especially when they serve some salesman's purpose.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
Listen to others who know, follow those that know, then you too can be one of those that know.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>IMHO, the ShopAtHome clowns will say anything in an effort to get the rubes to buy - doesn't make what they say either true or relevent. >>
I couldn't have said it better.
The US Mint actually INCREASED its consumption of silver in our US coinage as the nickels of late 1942 through 1945 had silver in them as opposed to the copper/nickel combo.
I do seem to recall a slight decrease in our mintage of silver coins in dimes, quarters and halves from 1942 to 1943 possibly to offset the increased consumption for the nickels.
But then 1944 and 1945 saw even greater mintages all around as the economy was growing due to the wartime effort followed by the returning soldiers from Europe in 1945 who had lots of money to spend.
Could someone do an analysis to confirm my contention?
San Diego, CA
It's entirely possible that the entire mintage of the 1895-P Morgans were sacrificed so we would have the A-bomb.
-David
<< <i>I just heard Robert Chambers @ 12:54 PM CST (games no on yet) refer to the Manattan Project where they (the US Government) melted 40,000,000 silver dollars when they were hawking Morgan Silver Dollars. (He did not say what silver dollars were melted, only that they were)
It's entirely possible that the entire mintage of the 1895-P Morgans were sacrificed so we would have the A-bomb.
-David >>
An obviously deceptive stretch of logic - perfect for the modern marketeer
A very thought provoking thread - thanks.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>The government would not have made the silver war nickels if silver for needed elsewhere in the war effort. >>
I understood oreville's question...I was waiting for a response to this question he posed:
~Could someone do an analysis to confirm my contention?~
I do not know how to do such an analysis to confirm those contentions.
There is a specific reason the War Nickels were minted from silver during that time period, the copper composition was more important to the war effort (curcuits on ships/planes/bomb fuses etc.) than it was for minting coins, hence the "Steel Cent" came into evolution. Silver was more plentiful (stocks already available in place in the US Treasury) so why not substitute in emergency situations. It takes an act of congress to change a design, but the Mint Dirrector can change the composition on his own, I'm sure with guidance of the Prez.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i><Any coins that might have been melted for the Manhattan Project wouldn't have been in collectors' hands in the first place. Can you expand on what you think the impact was?>
I have been in this hobby since 1965 and it has always been my contention, via word of mouth/newspapers/Numismatic magazines (all the media of the times, not much to go by... the internet has just had a positive boom to coin collecting) that there were several melts of silver coinage.
~Pitman Act of 1918 when 270,232,722 silver dollars were melted.
~Manhattan Project, tons and tons of silver used.
~The great melts in 1979 and 1980
and other melts within this century
I keep hearing/seeing this term Manhattan Project and that untold tons of silver from the US Treasury was melted in order for the production of Uranium.
I envisioned (1965) dump trucks full of silver coins being dumped into a smelter and reduced to ingots. What a loss to the Numismatic community, but it was for a good cause i.e.; the atomic age turned the edge in the war with Japan in the Pacific.
I keep hearing this terminology Manhattan Project used again, and with the internet you have instant access to all sorts of information. Well, I can't find a single thing linking coins being melted (which would have had an adverse effect on this hobby, if the Government did it once, they will do it again) and that it appears that it was nothing more than already acquired silver bar bullion that was used for this project. (most, the bus bars, of the bullion was returned to the Treasury, did not know that either)
I was happy that no coinage was used, but dismayed that we are still being led down the wrong path, history wise by or present day spokes people and media.
My point for starting the thread was to just get to the bottom of this "Urban Legend" once and for all..thanks for your contribution.
~Woody~ >>
The federal reserve started withdrawing silver coins from circulation in mid-'68 using
inertial separators and continued through mid-'69 when there wasn't enough remain-
ing silver to warrant separating. This silver was eventually destroyed but probably
represented little more than 10% of the circulating silver coinage in 1961-64.
inertial separators and continued through mid-'69 when there wasn't enough remain-
ing silver to warrant separating. This silver was eventually destroyed but probably
represented little more than 10% of the circulating silver coinage in 1961-64. >>
Did not know this either...this thread is opening up all sorts of avenues. I bet people were efficent at gleaning silver from pocket change during that period of time (68/69)also. I was out of the country for 2 years (part of 66/67/part of 68) there was a scirmish in the Far East, but the 40% Kennedy silver half dollar in 65 got me started. I knew then something was up with the amount of silver in the US coins and had better get started. Franklins were still in circulation in '65 so it was easy pickins. Sort of picked up collecting again in 70 once I got my head back together and it's been fun ever since.
Thanks for your contribution.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Edit: Sorry. there is .7734 oz. in a dollar of silver coins. So it would yield only about 30¢ worth of silver per $1.00 face.