interesting email from REA
earlycalguy
Posts: 1,247 ✭✭
recieved this today from robert edwards
Dear joel,
Every once in while (OK, more than once in a while), REA likes to communicate
about issues that we think deserve attention but for some reason are receiving
little or no attention. There are several topics that we would like to bring to
the attention of buyers today, in the hopes of educating buyers and maybe saving
someone money.
1) Practically every day we are seeing fake items. Fake printed items. Posters
that are actually reproductions of vintage posters. Stand-up cardboard counter
displays that are not real. Babe Ruth Candy wrappers that are not real. Fans
that picture baseball player portraits that are reproductions. Photographs that
appear to be old but are not vintage. There is no limit to what can be made with
computers, especially with printing equipment available today that is very
economical and which years ago did not even exist. These items are being
intentionally made to fool people into parting with their money for worthless
items. These items are being made to cheat buyers. Many of these items are somehow reproduced from books and auction catalogs,
often enlarged from small quality illustrations to their correct original size.
With computers these days, it is possible for some criminals to produce very
real-looking reproductions and also to produce “fantasy pieces” (defined as
those items that are not actually reproductions, as there is no original, but
are made to look old to fool buyers). This is a BIG problem. These items are
offered to us practically every day, and they are being offered to us by
collectors who themselves are victims. Most of the sophisticated fake items of
this type that we have seen appear to have one thing in common: They were
purchased by sellers in the state of Ohio. It is obvious to us that the
individual(s) responsible for most or all of these imaginative quality fakes is
located in the state of Ohio, though these items are now circulating throughout
the country. It is easy for us to tell in almost all cases whether an item is
real or not, often just from a scan. We understand from experience that not everyone can, including
the numerous victims who have sent us these recently produced fake items which
at a glance appear to be vintage items. If you think that you have purchased a
fake item of this type and would like our opinion, we will be happy to be of
assistance. Please write and/or send scans.
2) In recent weeks we have received a number of consignments of graded cards
that has motivated us to adopt a formal policy regarding altered professionally
graded cards that we have not previously seen a need to articulate. The altering
of cards is so widespread, and “card doctors” so brazen, that REA has actually
been receiving cards submitted for auction to us that are the very same cards
that have been sold by REA previously – in some cases just months earlier – and
which, since purchase, have been significantly altered, reholdered, and now
grade higher according to the grading label. In some cases a given card has
changed hands and the new consignor was not even aware it was a seriously altered card. It is our policy
that when we are aware of such a problem, and we ARE looking, we will be happy
to auction the card in question - but insist on providing all information
describing the alterations which have occurred to the card of which we are
certain. So far, the potential consignors of such cards have elected to have
these cards returned rather than have a proper description provided by REA. Last
week we returned a $10,000 card. The consignor couldn’t believe it was the same
card that we had just sold (in a lower grade and looking quite different) in a
previous auction. Only after being provided with images of the card as it
appeared when we previously sold it was the consignor finally convinced.
We’re not guessing here. We are talking about cards that we know for a fact are
problems. The fact that we have to address situations such as this at all
suggests a greater underlying problem than is generally recognized. And while it
is bad enough that the altering of cards is an epidemic, it is particularly disturbing that some
of the most sophisticated “work” on cards (including the previously mentioned
$10,000 card) has actually been executed by employees of auction houses that
also deal in cards. We have to ask ourselves “What is going on here?” Turning a
blind eye to this issue, in our opinion, has far greater and more significant
negative potential consequences than our calling attention to it and promoting
discussion. We all know that there is a subjectivity to grading and that
sometimes there is an honest difference of opinion regarding a grade, or
sometimes even an honest mistake. We’re not talking about honest mistakes here.
Active and sophisticated collectors, dealers, and auction houses know that this
is a problem. They just don’t talk about it, except among themselves. In the
end, the collector loses. We want to be clear that we think the major grading
services do a valiant job and we can’t imagine what the landscape of the
marketplace would look like without them. That doesn’t mean there are no problems. At the end of
the day, we have this advice: “Buy the card, not the holder.”
3) REA highly recommends reading the just-released book “Operation Bullpen, The
Inside Story of the Biggest Forgery Scam in American History”. If you collect
autographs, or have an interest in the field in any way, (or just like a great
crime-related book), this book is required reading. This is a great book that we
think every collector should read. You can order the book online at
www.OperationBullpen.com or call Southampton Books at (707) 747-4705.
REA has never been shy about calling attention to what we think are significant
problems and issues facing the field. It is our hope that openly communicating
about issues which deserve attention, which are so important to so many people,
will help us to come up with better ways to address these issues, and in the
long run will have a positive impact. That’s how progress is made. Your ideas
and suggestions are always welcome.
Sincerely,
Robert Edward Auctions LLC
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com
Dear joel,
Every once in while (OK, more than once in a while), REA likes to communicate
about issues that we think deserve attention but for some reason are receiving
little or no attention. There are several topics that we would like to bring to
the attention of buyers today, in the hopes of educating buyers and maybe saving
someone money.
1) Practically every day we are seeing fake items. Fake printed items. Posters
that are actually reproductions of vintage posters. Stand-up cardboard counter
displays that are not real. Babe Ruth Candy wrappers that are not real. Fans
that picture baseball player portraits that are reproductions. Photographs that
appear to be old but are not vintage. There is no limit to what can be made with
computers, especially with printing equipment available today that is very
economical and which years ago did not even exist. These items are being
intentionally made to fool people into parting with their money for worthless
items. These items are being made to cheat buyers. Many of these items are somehow reproduced from books and auction catalogs,
often enlarged from small quality illustrations to their correct original size.
With computers these days, it is possible for some criminals to produce very
real-looking reproductions and also to produce “fantasy pieces” (defined as
those items that are not actually reproductions, as there is no original, but
are made to look old to fool buyers). This is a BIG problem. These items are
offered to us practically every day, and they are being offered to us by
collectors who themselves are victims. Most of the sophisticated fake items of
this type that we have seen appear to have one thing in common: They were
purchased by sellers in the state of Ohio. It is obvious to us that the
individual(s) responsible for most or all of these imaginative quality fakes is
located in the state of Ohio, though these items are now circulating throughout
the country. It is easy for us to tell in almost all cases whether an item is
real or not, often just from a scan. We understand from experience that not everyone can, including
the numerous victims who have sent us these recently produced fake items which
at a glance appear to be vintage items. If you think that you have purchased a
fake item of this type and would like our opinion, we will be happy to be of
assistance. Please write and/or send scans.
2) In recent weeks we have received a number of consignments of graded cards
that has motivated us to adopt a formal policy regarding altered professionally
graded cards that we have not previously seen a need to articulate. The altering
of cards is so widespread, and “card doctors” so brazen, that REA has actually
been receiving cards submitted for auction to us that are the very same cards
that have been sold by REA previously – in some cases just months earlier – and
which, since purchase, have been significantly altered, reholdered, and now
grade higher according to the grading label. In some cases a given card has
changed hands and the new consignor was not even aware it was a seriously altered card. It is our policy
that when we are aware of such a problem, and we ARE looking, we will be happy
to auction the card in question - but insist on providing all information
describing the alterations which have occurred to the card of which we are
certain. So far, the potential consignors of such cards have elected to have
these cards returned rather than have a proper description provided by REA. Last
week we returned a $10,000 card. The consignor couldn’t believe it was the same
card that we had just sold (in a lower grade and looking quite different) in a
previous auction. Only after being provided with images of the card as it
appeared when we previously sold it was the consignor finally convinced.
We’re not guessing here. We are talking about cards that we know for a fact are
problems. The fact that we have to address situations such as this at all
suggests a greater underlying problem than is generally recognized. And while it
is bad enough that the altering of cards is an epidemic, it is particularly disturbing that some
of the most sophisticated “work” on cards (including the previously mentioned
$10,000 card) has actually been executed by employees of auction houses that
also deal in cards. We have to ask ourselves “What is going on here?” Turning a
blind eye to this issue, in our opinion, has far greater and more significant
negative potential consequences than our calling attention to it and promoting
discussion. We all know that there is a subjectivity to grading and that
sometimes there is an honest difference of opinion regarding a grade, or
sometimes even an honest mistake. We’re not talking about honest mistakes here.
Active and sophisticated collectors, dealers, and auction houses know that this
is a problem. They just don’t talk about it, except among themselves. In the
end, the collector loses. We want to be clear that we think the major grading
services do a valiant job and we can’t imagine what the landscape of the
marketplace would look like without them. That doesn’t mean there are no problems. At the end of
the day, we have this advice: “Buy the card, not the holder.”
3) REA highly recommends reading the just-released book “Operation Bullpen, The
Inside Story of the Biggest Forgery Scam in American History”. If you collect
autographs, or have an interest in the field in any way, (or just like a great
crime-related book), this book is required reading. This is a great book that we
think every collector should read. You can order the book online at
www.OperationBullpen.com or call Southampton Books at (707) 747-4705.
REA has never been shy about calling attention to what we think are significant
problems and issues facing the field. It is our hope that openly communicating
about issues which deserve attention, which are so important to so many people,
will help us to come up with better ways to address these issues, and in the
long run will have a positive impact. That’s how progress is made. Your ideas
and suggestions are always welcome.
Sincerely,
Robert Edward Auctions LLC
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com
0
Comments
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>I got that as well. I think there is a large enough body of evidence to suggest that the card doctors ability to get cards graded undetected has surpassed the grading companies ability to catch them at it. >>
Ditto and yup.....
<< <i>I got that as well. I think there is a large enough body of evidence to suggest that the card doctors ability to get cards graded undetected has surpassed the grading companies ability to catch them at it. >>
I don't know-- and at first blush, I'm inclined to disagree.
I could be wrong, and I'm 100% prepared to meet that possibility. But there's something about this article that doesn't smell right. For instance, just what kind of alterations could be taking place that the graders at PSA/SGC/GAI couldn't detect but the stoners at REA can? Are the guys at REA that much better at spotting alterations? Maybe they are, but that just doesn't 'feel' right. And second, I have trouble swallowing the idea that REA is going to forego a $1500 commission on an auction by insisting that a graded card receive some kind of murky qualifier in an auction description.
This looks to me like a calculated attempt to boost consumer confidence in REA-- not an attempt to preserve the integrity of the hobby. But, God knows I've been wrong before, and I could be wrong now.
Oh, and I suspect that the crook behind the repros and fantasies coming out of OH is connected to those who produced the fake Star cards in Capitol and Gem Elite holders not too long ago.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>REA takes numerous high-resolution pictures of each card that is a lot unto itself. Even alterations will not, in most cases, remove certain distinguishing marks of a card. I see no reason to believe that they would not be better able than a grading company (who may never have seen that particular card before - and even less likely that the grader would have) to detect that a particular card which they are familiar with has been altered.
Oh, and I suspect that the crook behind the repros and fantasies coming out of OH is connected to those who produced the fake Star cards in Capitol and Gem Elite holders not too long ago.
Nick >>
Interesting. What kind of alterations could possibly be going on that would be undetected by a major grading company? I can't believe that you could build up the corners of a card, for instance, and not have a grader detect it, but maybe this disbelief is just a function of my ignorance on the subject or the result of a lack of imagination.
<< <i>
<< <i>I got that as well. I think there is a large enough body of evidence to suggest that the card doctors ability to get cards graded undetected has surpassed the grading companies ability to catch them at it. >>
I don't know-- and at first blush, I'm inclined to disagree.
I could be wrong, and I'm 100% prepared to meet that possibility. But there's something about this article that doesn't smell right. For instance, just what kind of alterations could be taking place that the graders at PSA/SGC/GAI couldn't detect but the stoners at REA can? Are the guys at REA that much better at spotting alterations? Maybe they are, but that just doesn't 'feel' right. And second, I have trouble swallowing the idea that REA is going to forego a $1500 commission on an auction by insisting that a graded card receive some kind of murky qualifier in an auction description.
This looks to me like a calculated attempt to boost consumer confidence in REA-- not an attempt to preserve the integrity of the hobby. But, God knows I've been wrong before, and I could be wrong now. >>
You know the people at REA, at least Rob, has had quite a few years in examaning and selling cards. We had a post not too long ago about wcsports1 buying cards on Ebay and turning around and getting full bumps on them. Buying PSA graded cards from scans on an ebay auctions and submitting them and getting full bumps. If you take a few of the numbers between the numbers of the gaded cards, you'll find 5-6 cards that were rejected for being trimmed. That just tells me that he was able to get 20 bumped and 5 rejected. Not too bad of an average if you are taking a card you paid 300.00 for and turning it around and getting 2,000.00 for it. I would like to know, not just PSA but SGC GAI and BGS as well, exactly who is grading the cards and what the qualifications are for becoming a grader? Until some of this info is made public, how does anyone know that they arent hiring people off of the street and just giving them a crash course in grading so they can pay them 15.00 per hour and dump 800 cards in their lap until lunch?
When you get into some of the higher dollar cards that are changing hands, most of the time you can follow its lineage from the last 5-10 years.
A lot of this is really disturbing because its hard to keep coming up with high grade vintage for the 100 or so high grade auctions held every year by the larger auction houses (REA, Mastro, MileHigh, Heritage, Huggins & Scott, etc etc) so when you start tracking a couple of cards, because you know there are only 5 of them out there, and they come up for auction 9 times in 2 years, its pretty easy to see where they are going and where they have been.
Everyone knows the path the Gretzky Wagnerhas taken in the last 15 years. When you keep handling high grade vintage and watch it come up for auction over and over, its just as easy to follow the same thing with a lot of other cards.
Its just a shame, but its something you knew was happening but was hoping it wasnt..........
<< <i>
<< <i>I got that as well. I think there is a large enough body of evidence to suggest that the card doctors ability to get cards graded undetected has surpassed the grading companies ability to catch them at it. >>
Ditto and yup..... >>
<< <i>Interesting. What kind of alterations could possibly be going on that would be undetected by a major grading company? >>
You're kidding, right? Check the pop report for Herspolheimers. These are one of a kind cards, and every one has writing on the back. Yet the pop reports on some show 2, and there is no MK qualifier like there should be. Any Herspolheimer that doesn't have the pencil mark on the back is doctored.
Just the tip of the iceberg- did you read the recent thread on Net 54? How about the flier that was passed out at the National?
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting. What kind of alterations could possibly be going on that would be undetected by a major grading company? >>
You're kidding, right? Check the pop report for Herspolheimers. These are one of a kind cards, and every one has writing on the back. Yet the pop reports on some show 2, and there is no MK qualifier like there should be. Any Herspolheimer that doesn't have the pencil mark on the back is doctored.
Just the tip of the iceberg- did you read the recent thread on Net 54? How about the flier that was passed out at the National? >>
I'm sorry, but no-- I'm not kidding. I've never figured out how to get to the Net54 boards, I wasn't at the National this year, and until I read your post I'd never heard of a Herspolheimer.
I can see how you can soak and press a card, or trim off .02 inches, and not have it detected, but I can't see how a card could undergo a major alteration and not have it detected. I'm not saying that it DOESN'T happen, just that I don't know enough about advanced card doctoring techniques to know how this COULD happen.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>This looks to me like a calculated attempt to boost consumer confidence in REA-- not an attempt to preserve the integrity of the hobby. But, God knows I've been wrong before, and I could be wrong now. >>
And you are.
<< <i>
<< <i>This looks to me like a calculated attempt to boost consumer confidence in REA-- not an attempt to preserve the integrity of the hobby. But, God knows I've been wrong before, and I could be wrong now. >>
And you are. >>
A board member PM'd me and explained that you have a unique perspective on this issue, so obviously I'm going to assume your opinion is more informed then mine. And I think everyone here would appreciate it if you would go into some specific detail explaining how you came to adopt this viewpoint.
<< <i>I got that as well. I think there is a large enough body of evidence to suggest that the card doctors ability to get cards graded undetected has surpassed the grading companies ability to catch them at it. >>
Anthony - I don't think that is specifically the case. I think it is more that:
A) Collectors have continued to push down grading fees [grading fees today are significantly less than they were 5-7 years ago].
C) As a result of both of the above, sophisticated alteration techniques are not examined with the level of precision that they could be.
All of this is compounded by:
D) Many/most collectors seem to think certain 'alterations' are okay. Whatever that slippery slope may be, it could be simply scrapbook removal, to ink/pencil removal, to more sophisticated techniques. As a result, if collectors are 'okay' with it, PSA/SGC don't seem to concern themselves with it as much.
E) Despite every talking a big game, I don't quite see any major grading company stepping up to increase their review of cards along with a 50% increase in grading fees.
~ms
Grading prices have gone way down. Because of this the same amount of time can't be spent on each card. And that one would assume that the pay for graders isn't what it once was (and in no way do I mean to get into a discourse over what they make, as it's nobody's business) and the turnover would be higher. Add it to that the emergence of another grading company during that period, further thinning the pool of trained graders.
A lot more is known by more people of how to do simple things that will get a 1-3 grade bump, and the fact that a bump of that amount has great rewards, and you have a potentially volatile situation. This may be heresy here, but I believe grading fees are too low for what we expect them to achieve, with the exception of T3's.
The discussion of what level of restoration or doctoring is acceptable is a controversial one that raises the passion and anger of many, but I think it's one that needs to be continued. Is erasing a pencil mark ok? Is "presenting" a card for grading by laying down a corner and flattening it before submission acceptable? How about soaking in water? Bleaching, and then toning back?
Perhaps the time has come for a separate grading category- restored. It's common in comic books, and doesn't even raise an eyebrow in the art world.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
I bought "Sky Fallin" insurance.
mike
Prior to identifying this card, there was an ironic statement made on that 54 Thread:
"That's why I don't collect vintage cards in the "super grades". I'm perfectly happy with my PSA 4's and below"
The problem is that these sub-PSA 5 cards are just as easy, if not easier to bump up (ie from a 1 or 2 to a 3 or 4).
The E95 Cobb that was on the 54 Board a year or two ago that was Fair in raw condition and then went to a GIA 3 then to a SGC 3 and finally a PSA 3 is another example of the doctoring that goes on at the low end of the card spectrum.
At the end of the day, the people who are doing these things NEED TO BE SOUGHT OUT AND PUBLICLY EXPOSED and brought to justice where the laws apply. The problem is that no one wants to get serious about it and as a result, it will always be business as usual.
One other comment. Saving high resolution scans of vintage cards is disk-space well used. This type of detective work is at least a starting point for solving these problems.
<< <i>One other comment. Saving high resolution scans of vintage cards is disk-space well used. This type of detective work is at least a starting point for solving these problems. >>
Amen brother.
<< <i>The problem is that these sub-PSA 5 cards are just as easy, if not easier to bump up (ie from a 1 or 2 to a 3 or 4). >>
Spot on with that point as well, Dan.
Good to see you back on the card forums.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
On the net 54 board, there have been many, MANY threads about PSA vs SGC, high grade PSA cards are trimmed, bleached, etc. I chimed in a few times under the handle, John_B_California, and evidently, I got banned from the board for daring to say something positive about PSA (shock, horrors!!), I have no idea why.
The Lajoie and REA email certainly aren't comforting, but I wonder...
-If fraud was truely hitting epidemic proportions, why aren't rare and low pop pre war cards going up? As a casual observer, everything pre war is on fire. Commons are reaching 20 k. We've had this incredible bull market, yet the numbers don't budge. Where are the '33 Goudey low numbers, the T206 PSA 9's, etc?
With sets like '38 Goudey, there's nothing. Where are all of them?
-There are some sets that have never been out there in high grade (George C Millers, T204's). Again, as a casual observer, I wonder, where are all of them if they can be created at will?
-Is it better or worse than the 80's and 90's as a total percent of cards out there?
-Is it isolated (WIWAG) or more in line with the autograph/memorabilia market in terms of severity?
<< <i>The E95 Cobb that was on the 54 Board a year or two ago that was Fair in raw condition and then went to a GIA 3 then to a SGC 3 and finally a PSA 3 is another example of the doctoring that goes on at the low end of the card spectrum. >>
Do you have more information on this E95 Cobb? I must have missed it. Any links and/or scans?
<< <i>-If fraud was truely hitting epidemic proportions, why aren't rare and low pop pre war cards going up? As a casual observer, everything pre war is on fire. Commons are reaching 20 k. We've had this incredible bull market, yet the numbers don't budge. Where are the '33 Goudey low numbers, the T206 PSA 9's, etc?
>>
My opinion is that it is not an epidemic, but enough cards are worked on that it worries a lot of people. No one wants to be a fool and get stuck with an altered card.
<< <i>On the net 54 board, there have been many, MANY threads about PSA vs SGC, high grade PSA cards are trimmed, bleached, etc. I chimed in a few times under the handle, John_B_California, and evidently, I got banned from the board for daring to say something positive about PSA (shock, horrors!!), I have no idea why. >>
I remember that. You can pretty much say anything there, but if it's controversial you have to put your name on it. I'm pretty sure you got tossed for not emailing Leon your info when he asked you to. If the moderator requests you email him you have to right away, or get tossed.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
You probably got the boot for posting under a handle and not a real name. They like you to use your real name on controversial subjects.
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
It was ironic that under one of those long PSA bashing threads (I think Yorktown, where any T206 over a 7 was met with great skepticism), Barry Sloate mentioned that nearly every find he's made has been a T206 collection. I just scratch my head.....ok guys.
Cmoking, those are some awesome '33 Goudeys you've got up for sale on ebay. When I see the '38 Goudey Bartell you sold and the rarity of these commons (with the numbers never moving as prices have exploded), it gives me at least a little piece of mind into the integrity of the system.
It'd be a great move for the hobby if PSA adopted higher pricing for vintage cards.
Does it make sense to pay the same price to evaluate a T206 as it does a '90 Upper Deck Sosa rookie?
You should try it again--there is a change going on. I have had several "discussions" on psa and graded cards in general there and there is a fair amount of support for graded cards and psa.
Several CU/LTS guys post there. The most serious card hobby discussions in the hobby take place on Network 54.
Jim
Also Leon is very fair and simply states that you must give your real name if you say something at all controvertial.