Where's the beef?

cladking

OK, we've got a fantastic '19-S nickel and a steak vs sizzle thread right at the top. We've got a
couple pretty sorry modern bashing threads not too far down. And a TPG bashing thread.

A lot of this really has a pretty common theme; a coin can't be desirable or rare just because it,
or ones like it, are common. The '19-S nickel is special because collectors know that they aren't
usually found in unc with nice strikes.

Why do so many collectors believe that a coin has to have a tiny mintage to be worth a lot of money?
1916 dimes are quite common in unc and were saved because they are a first year issue. Many mil-
lions were produced and they can be acquired quite reasonably today. But the same coin with a tiny
little D mint mark on the reverse is worth thousands in unc and tens of thousands if gem. The difference
between a typical '19-S nickel and a well struck coin is many multiples of the difference between the '16
and '16-D. If you scraped off enough metal from the buffalo to make it look like a typical coin you'd have
enough metal to make dozens of little mintmarks. So why is the premium justified for the rare date but
not for the rare grade?

If a collector desires a coin in unc because he doesn't like wear then there will usually be a big premium.
Why shouldn't there also be a premium if he wants one that isn't beat-up? Why does a flat buffalo with
an overdate constitute steak while a buffalo that is fully formed is mere sizzle?

CarlWohlforth

I don't know.

I have a condition and date rarity that is only 5 times the price that a 2006-D Lincoln recently brought. I think this forum is reacting to people who pay so much for a coin where the condition rarity hasn't even been established yet...

Leiana

Because overdates are 'cool' and people like them. Also, an overdate is usually more appreciable by someone who does not study a particular series.

The fact that 1919S Buffaloes are virtually unknown with great strikes might not be very impressive to a non buffalo fan, because there are so many that are available with decent strikes with minimal searching.

-Amanda

cladking

<< <i>Because overdates are 'cool' and people like them. Also, an overdate is usually more appreciable by someone who does not study a particular series.

The fact that 1919S Buffaloes are virtually unknown with great strikes might not be very impressive to a non buffalo fan, because there are so many that are available with decent strikes with minimal searching.

-Amanda >>



The same attributes in a modern coin and a price of 10% of the buffalo will
have many questioning the sanity and parentage of the buyer. Is the diff-
erence just age then?

Leiana

<< <i>The same attributes in a modern coin and a price of 10% of the buffalo will
have many questioning the sanity and parentage of the buyer. Is the diff-
erence just age then? >>



Age of the coin?

-Amanda

cladking

<< <i>

Age of the coin?
>>




It seems to be a cut off where earlier gem coins are beef and later gems are just sizzle.

Leiana

<< <i>

<< <i>

Age of the coin?
>>




It seems to be a cut off where earlier gem coins are beef and later gems are just sizzle. >>



I don't really follow the steak and sizzle metaphor, but any coin that is dazzlingly gorgeous deserves talking about.

-Amanda

buffnut

All this talk about steak makes me hungry...

tradedollarnut

<< <i>

<< <i>

Age of the coin?
>>




It seems to be a cut off where earlier gem coins are beef and later gems are just sizzle. >>



The difference in my eyes is twofold:

1) the pyramid of available specimens is drastically broader in moderns. An MS60 1919-S buffalo is still relatively scarce and desirable whereas an MS60 modern is pocket change.

2) the difference in quality for a modern becomes microscopic at the very top end of the grade spectrum whereas the difference in quality for a classic coin is usually about eye appeal. Moderns at the top end look the same - blast white [or blast red] and you need a microscope to tell the grades apart.

RedTiger

There have been and continue to be bashers and trolls on both sides. Why the need to beat the dead horse? Live and let live, enjoy what you collect and hope that it remains shunned, unpopular, and unwanted (until the year you sell, and then hope it becomes nuclear red hot and hyped by veterans and newbies.)

Yes, there are those that buy moderns for huge markups from major magazine ads that would be lucky to sell for 25% of what they paid. However, for every one of those there are ten collectors buying overgraded or dipped out raw classic coins from ads in the same magazine, or buying common widget certified coins for a 100% markup over wholesale value from sweet talking dealers.

Worse than both of those are those that meet the smooth talking "investment" advisors with the pitch of the day. Historically, this last group of buyers ends up with 10 cents on the dollar, and sometimes that happens from a court settlement, not from any value in the coins. Worse than those are those that think the opportunities are so good that they borrow money to buy those special investment coins.

I say let people collect what they want. Not every is going to like the coins I buy, or my points of view. Of course they don't. The more that they don't like it, the better it is for finding those coins.

cladking

<< <i>

The difference in my eyes is twofold:

1) the pyramid of available specimens is drastically broader in moderns. An MS60 1919-S buffalo is still relatively scarce and desirable whereas an MS60 modern is pocket change. >>



This isn't universally true. There are lots of coins like 1916 dimes and a '19-S nickel
is not so much less common. There were more than 7,000,000 made and people did
save a few coins in those days. There are numerous moderns that are less common
in unc (most if not all are varieties) but typically these will be described as sizzle.

If you consider that condition rarity is just as real as absolute rarity then you're left
with many more moderns that are as scarce as the condition rare '19-S. This coin real-
ly can be picked up for a quarter and nice AG's will bring only a couple dollars despite
the great demand for buffalos. Hardly sounds like much beef there, eh?


<< <i>
2) the difference in quality for a modern becomes microscopic at the very top end of the grade spectrum whereas the difference in quality for a classic coin is usually about eye appeal. Moderns at the top end look the same - blast white [or blast red] and you need a microscope to tell the grades apart. >>



This is simply untrue. It may have some truth for some specific moderns, but "modern"
encompasses a very large universe now days. If you think there's no difference in top
grade moderns then you're not looking at '69 quarters or '82-P dimes. If you think there
is a nice neat distribution of grades and all you have to do is pick one from the top-end
then you're not looking at '70-S nickels.

You can talk about eye appeal in classics but when you go looking for a '74 Ike you'll
quickly learn that it doesn't matter if they are all unc when they almost all have unat-
tractive surfaces. There are a lot of preconcieved notions about moderns and the simple
fact is that they are all erroneous. The only common characteristic of moderns is that
they're, well, modern. But even here you can't get general agreement on what's modern
and what isn't and some people even have different dates for different denominations.

BlindedByEgo

<< <i>Because overdates are 'cool' and people like them. Also, an overdate is usually more appreciable by someone who does not study a particular series.

The fact that 1919S Buffaloes are virtually unknown with great strikes might not be very impressive to a non buffalo fan, because there are so many that are available with decent strikes with minimal searching.

-Amanda >>



So what you are asserting is, fundamentally, collector ignorance. Seems apt.