Going to the darkside....BVG?

ndleo

Since my PSA membership ran out, I'm a "free agent" when it comes to grading companies. Beckett sent me an email on a grading special that I'm thinking about trying out.

Has anyone used BVG lately? Are their standards similar to PSA? I have a stack of vintage in SGC holders that I'm thinking about crossing over.

Griffins

Why would you consider crossing them over? Depending on your definition of vintage Beckett is irrelevant as a grading company, and SGC is very solid.
FWIW, when you calculate the cost of PSA membership vs. the free grading it's just about a wash- throw in the Mastro book they are giving out now, the pop report and SMR and it would seem to be a giveaway, providing you actually use the free submissions.

cardfan07

My only (and I mean only) experience with BVG was having a 39 playball BVG 8 of Joe Dimaggio. It was GREAT. So much so, that I sent it to PSA for a shot at a 9. To my surprise, they not only didn't think it was a 9, but the border had apparently been erased or whitened in some way. Needless to say, that was a shock. I'm not saying this was/is indicative of this company as I believe everyone lets some percentage of cards into holders that shouldn't be, over/under graded, etc. But this is a pretty high profile card with several thousand dollars of value...especially if deemed to be 9 worthy.
That's my 2¢.

blindflyer

do an ebay search for BVG vintage cards. Then search PSA.

That should be all you need to know.

If you're going to be keeping them as collectibles with no intention of ever selling, than go with whoever you want. But PSA is going to hold more value over the long run in my opinion and is the "industry standard."

-t

lawnmowerman

DONT DO IT!!! I had a friend once that did the same thing that you are thinking of doing. He did it and over time his behavior became more erratic and stranger by the day.

Here is how he looks today



The poor guy now is relegated to walking local malls wearing skirts and pom-poms in his hair. All because he went with BVG instead of renewing his membership with PSA. So my advice to you is STAY away form BGS/BVG. The rewards are just not worth the risks.

Matt

Overrated

Your I.Q will drop at least 60% be carefull!

schr1st

I'd send cards to GAI (if they are even still in business) before I'd send them to Beckett.

KyleBicking

If you're looking to submit to PSA, I'll do it for you, and so will many other board members. All you gotta do is ask!
-Kyle-

Southerncards

If you already have SGC slabs and you are a free agent, why not go with SGC? SGC is awesome.

Courvoisier

BVG is not pimpin'! PRO would give BVG a run for their money. Leave 'em alone playa.

Pimp On...

baseballfanatic

<< <i>DONT DO IT!!! I had a friend once that did the same thing that you are thinking of doing. He did it and over time his behavior became more erratic and stranger by the day.

Here is how he looks today



Is that Jackie Rogers Jr from the show $100,000 jackpot wad?

XanaduNow

ndleo,

Go down to your local Target. In their card aisle they'll have a few shelfs of retail wax boxes. Mixed in with those wax boxes are boxes that contain a professionally graded card but you don't know who. It's a garbage scam and they're making money hands over fist by selling complete trash in a slab.

Guess who supplies the graded cards for that poop show? Uh-huh. BVG

I'll second the notion someone previously mentioned that with all of the stuff you get (including the free subs) when you join the Collector's Club the fee is a wash. In fact, I'll go so far as to call it a deal. If you're buying graded cards on the internet the pop report and SMR online (for some stuff ) are invaluable.

Arthur

fandango

<< <i>Why would you consider crossing them over? Depending on your definition of vintage Beckett is irrelevant as a grading company, and SGC is very solid.
FWIW, when you calculate the cost of PSA membership vs. the free grading it's just about a wash- throw in the Mastro book they are giving out now, the pop report and SMR and it would seem to be a giveaway, providing you actually use the free submissions. >>





If BVG has the same graders as BGS, i would say your are crazy........yet another crossover PSA submission yielded TRIMMED SLABBED BGS cards...its amazing how many trimmed slabbed cards BGS has!!!! They either dont look for this, or they give all cards 1mm leway...some sellers on ebay (wont name) all they do is sell high end graded stuff that is trimmed....they know BGS doesnt catch it so they buy raw, trim, submit, sell, bingo huge profit....i am in the process of selling trading, crossing over to PSA.....I have invested many thousands in BGS only to be more dissapointted by them every day....the stuff they grade now (serial number 4000000's) is a joke, everything is a 9.5 or 10....they turned the value of bowman chrome pujols bgs from $12000 to $7000 by slabbing too many trimmed 9.5.s.....

i believe PSA will separate themselves even more as time goes by..................check out my Pujols rookie collection regitsry. PSA PSA PSA

Brian48

BVG is a different group of graders. These guys are generally more qualified and careful. They are also not located in the same place.

Prior to me become a PSA subscriber, I had used Beckett a few times. The BGS group was very inconsistent and deserved the lumps they are taking, however I've found the BVG group to very strict. They rejected a '68 Orr and Parent rookie I sent in as trimmed. These two cards were subsequently given a grade of 8 and 7 respectively by PSA.

tedh111

It is very funny how so many people bash beckett for grdsing trimmed cards, yet fail to mention how many supposed card trimmers are also using PSA..... You think Beckett is alone? I would bet that PSa actually has more Trimmed cards or other restored cards in holders right now then beckett does....

Overrated

Use beckett, to reckett it.

nhcardhunter

Take out the registry set hype and PSA wouldn't be any more highly sought after than BVG, SGC, or GAI. Just my 2 cents.

Best,

Jim

Boopotts

<< <i>ndleo,

Go down to your local Target. In their card aisle they'll have a few shelfs of retail wax boxes. Mixed in with those wax boxes are boxes that contain a professionally graded card but you don't know who. It's a garbage scam and they're making money hands over fist by selling complete trash in a slab.

Guess who supplies the graded cards for that poop show? Uh-huh. BVG

I'll second the notion someone previously mentioned that with all of the stuff you get (including the free subs) when you join the Collector's Club the fee is a wash. In fact, I'll go so far as to call it a deal. If you're buying graded cards on the internet the pop report and SMR online (for some stuff ) are invaluable.

Arthur >>



I don't follow the connection between this and the quality of BVG's services.

Griffins

When the registry first started PSA was way ahead of the pack, with SGC a distant 2nd. Beckett was doing well on modern cards, but nothing pre '80.
GAI didn't exist, as Baker and Rocchi were still running PSA.
Fast forward 5 years and SGC has closed the gap a bit, but Beckett is arguably worse off, and GAI is hanging on, barely.

fdnyladder7

Well, at least I USED TO prefer blondes.

XanaduNow

<< <i>

<< <i>ndleo,

Go down to your local Target. In their card aisle they'll have a few shelfs of retail wax boxes. Mixed in with those wax boxes are boxes that contain a professionally graded card but you don't know who. It's a garbage scam and they're making money hands over fist by selling complete trash in a slab.

Guess who supplies the graded cards for that poop show? Uh-huh. BVG

I'll second the notion someone previously mentioned that with all of the stuff you get (including the free subs) when you join the Collector's Club the fee is a wash. In fact, I'll go so far as to call it a deal. If you're buying graded cards on the internet the pop report and SMR online (for some stuff ) are invaluable.

Arthur >>



I don't follow the connection between this and the quality of BVG's services. >>



Then there's nothing I can do for you.

Arthur

Boopotts

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>ndleo,

Go down to your local Target. In their card aisle they'll have a few shelfs of retail wax boxes. Mixed in with those wax boxes are boxes that contain a professionally graded card but you don't know who. It's a garbage scam and they're making money hands over fist by selling complete trash in a slab.

Guess who supplies the graded cards for that poop show? Uh-huh. BVG

I'll second the notion someone previously mentioned that with all of the stuff you get (including the free subs) when you join the Collector's Club the fee is a wash. In fact, I'll go so far as to call it a deal. If you're buying graded cards on the internet the pop report and SMR online (for some stuff ) are invaluable.

Arthur >>



I don't follow the connection between this and the quality of BVG's services. >>



Then there's nothing I can do for you.

Arthur >>




Thanks for clarifying.

Are we to assume, then, that when PSA was providing graded cards for Coll. Choice that their services should have been disregarded from that point on as well?

It seems that one's aversion to Beckett services, as a rule, tends to correlate inversely to how often one has used their services-- or at least that's the feeling I get from people on these boards. But, I could be wrong.

fandango

ah do you frequent ebay? i havent seen any bigtime sellers selling newly graded psa stuff...they sell newly graded (400000 serial number) BGS stuff....these recently graded cards are usually "highest graded yet" or "only graded this high" or "impossible grade" thats because these trimmers have found a method and they stick with it.....how come i have never had a PSA card come back "trimmed" by BGS, but have had over 20 BGS cards come pack "trimmed" from PSA...

i dont think you cant be more wrong saying psa has as many trimmed cards as BGS..the dichotomy between PSA and BGS grows every day.....i have over 500 psa cards and not one of them seems to be trimmed (i knowthis cause i measured every one) yet out of my 300 BGS pujols rookies about 30 measure up short???? you live and you learn, you wont see me bidding on BGS cards anymore!

XanaduNow

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>ndleo,

Go down to your local Target. In their card aisle they'll have a few shelfs of retail wax boxes. Mixed in with those wax boxes are boxes that contain a professionally graded card but you don't know who. It's a garbage scam and they're making money hands over fist by selling complete trash in a slab.

Guess who supplies the graded cards for that poop show? Uh-huh. BVG

I'll second the notion someone previously mentioned that with all of the stuff you get (including the free subs) when you join the Collector's Club the fee is a wash. In fact, I'll go so far as to call it a deal. If you're buying graded cards on the internet the pop report and SMR online (for some stuff ) are invaluable.

Arthur >>



I don't follow the connection between this and the quality of BVG's services. >>



Then there's nothing I can do for you.

Arthur >>




Thanks for clarifying.

Are we to assume, then, that when PSA was providing graded cards for Coll. Choice that their services should have been disregarded from that point on as well?

It seems that one's aversion to Beckett services, as a rule, tends to correlate inversely to how often one has used their services-- or at least that's the feeling I get from people on these boards. But, I could be wrong. >>



Everyone can always be wrong. I'm basing my opinion on my personal submissions and the cards that I have seen, in hand, already graded. I simply used that story as a metaphor instead of just chiming in with "Yay these people" and "Nay these people" and checking out.

Arthur

tedh111

Seriously, you dont see the high grade new cards being sold by the same people who also sell BGS graded cards??? comon on now, you really must not be looking.... And are we just talking about new cards or all cards? how many vintage cards do you think get through psa as trimmed, recolored etc?

tedh111

BTw, i use All of the 4 major grading companies for various things. I use psa for set registry type things and some autograph cards. I use GAi or SGC for autograph authentication, and i use Beckett for my rookie and my autographs. I follow the markets very cloely and the only preference i have between psa or bgs is what will sell better in what holder.. they all do a decent job, and each has their faults, but overall all of them do a decent job...

SoonerCowboy

SGC for vintage is the way to go. BVG undergrades and not very consistent. It's a roll of the dice with Beckett when it comes to older stuff. I've tried BVG and SGC. Was very pleased with SGC.

koby

If you are talking about vintage cards 1950 to 1970, you should not used any other grader other than PSA.

phreakydancin

<< <i> It is very funny how so many people bash beckett for grdsing trimmed cards, yet fail to mention how many supposed card trimmers are also using PSA..... You think Beckett is alone? I would bet that PSa actually has more Trimmed cards or other restored cards in holders right now then beckett does.... >>

In terms of raw numbers, I would agree. You grade 9 million+ cards and a few trimmed cards are bound to slip through. Percentage-wise, I would wager that BVG/BGS are heads and shoulders above the other 3 major grading services.

Beckett's official position on sheet-cut cards: "If someone is able to locate an uncut sheet and have it professionally cut down to size with consistent edges, it is no less authentic than the same card pulled from a pack, vending case or factory set." (Reference). I know sheet cutting and trimming are not the same thing, but personally I would not trust a grading company with such a carefree (careless?) attitude to be able to pick out a trim job.

XanaduNow

<< <i>

<< <i> It is very funny how so many people bash beckett for grdsing trimmed cards, yet fail to mention how many supposed card trimmers are also using PSA..... You think Beckett is alone? I would bet that PSa actually has more Trimmed cards or other restored cards in holders right now then beckett does.... >>

In terms of raw numbers, I would agree. You grade 9 million+ cards and a few trimmed cards are bound to slip through. Percentage-wise, I would wager that BVG/BGS are heads and shoulders above the other 3 major grading services.

Beckett's official position on sheet-cut cards: "If someone is able to locate an uncut sheet and have it professionally cut down to size with consistent edges, it is no less authentic than the same card pulled from a pack, vending case or factory set." (Reference). I know sheet cutting and trimming are not the same thing, but personally I would not trust a grading company with such a carefree (careless?) attitude to be able to pick out a trim job. >>



So then how do they tell if a card has been cut from a sheet or if it's just trimmed?

Arthur

Boopotts

<< <i>

<< <i> It is very funny how so many people bash beckett for grdsing trimmed cards, yet fail to mention how many supposed card trimmers are also using PSA..... You think Beckett is alone? I would bet that PSa actually has more Trimmed cards or other restored cards in holders right now then beckett does.... >>

In terms of raw numbers, I would agree. You grade 9 million+ cards and a few trimmed cards are bound to slip through. Percentage-wise, I would wager that BVG/BGS are heads and shoulders above the other 3 major grading services.

Beckett's official position on sheet-cut cards: "If someone is able to locate an uncut sheet and have it professionally cut down to size with consistent edges, it is no less authentic than the same card pulled from a pack, vending case or factory set." (Reference). I know sheet cutting and trimming are not the same thing, but personally I would not trust a grading company with such a carefree (careless?) attitude to be able to pick out a trim job. >>




I would agree that BGS (but not necessarily BVG) has a higher % of trim jobs in holders, but that PSA is gaining fast. Why? Consider: Most of the cards that BGS grades are ultra modern cards, and these cards will retain all of their value even if they aren't slabbed. If you have a 2000 B.C Pujols, and you pay $3K for it raw, then decide to trim it and go for the big payday, you're still going to have a card that you can sell for about 3K even if your trim job is detected. People may not be willing to pay the full 3K if they KNEW it was trimmed, but you don't have to mention this sticking point when selling it (jkmbb may have something to contribute here). Also, a lot of people would buy that card with the intention of just keeping it raw, and would never even bother to measure it.

In other words, there isn't much of a down side to trimming modern RC's because in the worst case scenerio you'll still get out of the card roughly what you paid for it. Now this dynamic does NOT apply to 50's and 60's HOFers and so forth, since you are really taking a gamble if you crack a $300 PSA 7 or 8, give the card a haircut and resubmit it. You could hit paydirt, or you could end up with a cards that's rejected. And since that card raw will not sell for a fraction of what it would sell for slabbed there is a real risk involved in trimming it.

Note that in the above scenerio there is no mention of which grading company is 'better'. Only that PSA probably grades fewer trimmed cards because there is a bigger downside to trimming the stuff that PSA primarily grades. This used to hold true for commons as well- back when typical 1960's commons sold for $20-$30 in PSA 8 there was a real risk involved in trimming down a NMT-MT common. But now, with PSA 8's frequently selling for little more than the grading fee, there's less of a downside to trimming commons and submitting them. All of which may explain why there's been more 'surface noise' in the past year surrounding 'bulk submitters getting trimmed cards past the graders' then there has been in the past five years combined (at least that's how it feels to me).

Anyway, some food for thought. Either way it's been a good discussion.

briank1971

The whole BVG/BGS/BCCG mess combined with the overwhelming popularity of PSA makes me think you only have one choice. For what its worth, in my experiences buying graded cards, primarily '71 topps baseball, the early BVG graded cards with subgrades seem to be graded tougher than PSA cards: PSA 7 = BVG 6 or 6.5. However, thats all moot because ebay sales show that PSA sells better, and all the "free" stuff you get with membership makes it the best choice.

XanaduNow

Beckett is not without its use. If I were to stumble across some hot modern singles and wished to flip them for a profit I would send them to BGS. For some reason, BGS 9.5s for post-2000 RCs sell better than PSA 10s.

But as I've said before ... if I'm buying it or keeping it I want PSA.

Arthur

Boopotts

<< <i>Beckett is not without its use. If I were to stumble across some hot modern singles and wished to flip them for a profit I would send them to BGS. For some reason, BGS 9.5s for post-2000 RCs sell better than PSA 10s.

But as I've said before ... if I'm buying it or keeping it I want PSA.

Arthur >>



Everyone says this, so I'm at the point where I've just decided that I'm wrong when this topic comes up. But I've sold plenty of PSA and BGS slabs of post-2000 RC's, and for whatever reason the BGS's never get a premium for me over the PSA's.