So was it pine tar?

morgansforever

Kenny Rogers claims it was a combination of dirt and rosen. The pics and videos show a dark smear on the base of the palm, tough to tell. I'm split on my decision. Give me your thoughts. Rules I copied from Fox:



Rule 3.02 states that, "No player shall intentionally discolor or damage the ball by rubbing it with soil, rosin, paraffin, licorice, sand-paper, emery-paper or other foreign substance."

Rule 8.02 states that a pitcher "shall not" even deliver a ball that he defaces with spit or a foreign substance or by rubbing the ball on his glove, person or clothing.

80sJunkie

I love how our attitude in sports has changed to guilty untill proven innocent

and if there is no proof there still guilty in everyones opinion

Axtell

I find it funny that even after washing whatever it was that he had on there, he went out and dominated for 7 more innings.

Maybe if the cards were more focused on swinging the bat instead of whining about the pitcher, they wouldn't have looked helpless out there for 8 innings.

softparade

<< <i>I find it funny that even after washing whatever it was that he had on there, he went out and dominated for 7 more innings.

Maybe if the cards were more focused on swinging the bat instead of whining about the pitcher, they wouldn't have looked helpless out there for 8 innings. >>



That is not what happened. The Cardinals made no official complaint. LaRussa is big time friends with Leyland. Yes they alerted the umpires to the dark color on his pitching hand (which they have every right to do) but it is the MEDIA which has taken this and ran with it. Not the Cardinals. LaRussa down played this ALOT in the post game ....

stown

<< <i>That is not what happened. The Cardinals made no official complaint. LaRussa is big time friends with Leyland. Yes they alerted the umpires to the dark color on his pitching hand (which they have every right to do) but it is the MEDIA which has taken this and ran with it. Not the Cardinals. LaRussa down played this ALOT in the post game .... >>





That's exactly how it played out.

WinPitcher

Yup, homers Buck and Timmy created news instead of just reporting it.

my first impression was that it was red clay from the mound.


Steve

Hyperion

I heard they went back to video from the other games he's pitched, the same spot was there (660 AM WFAN NYC).

seems to me no better way to get a grip on the ball in order to snap off a nasty breaker than having a bit of extra friction.

interesting...

kcballboy

SI.com has quoted a coach as saying that it was pine tar and he was probably using it for extra grip. He says that when it is warmer, pitchers usually use shaving cream or sunscreen, and pine tar in the cold.

Pine tar

Edited to add - Either way it's not legal

stown

Without a doubt in my mind, he was using pine tar.

And who said cheaters never win?

ToppsCo1lector

Apparently, that same "smudge" was on his hand during every one of his starts this postseason.

frankhardy

<< <i>Yup, homers Buck and Timmy created news instead of just reporting it.

my first impression was that it was red clay from the mound.


Steve >>




I hate to differ, but the broadcasters rarely have any control over what is shown on the screen. The producers do. In my opinion, they were just reporting it. Probably one of the sideline reporters heard the Cardinals talking about, then the sideline reporter probably notified the producers. I am no expert on telecasts, but that just seems logical to me.

On Buck and McCarver: Everybody seems to be down on Joe Buck, especially. As a Cardinals fan, I think he may even over do it the opposite way to the point where he doesn't get as excited when the Cardinals do something as opposed to the other team. I for sure don't see him as a homer. Just my opinion.

jerster

Cardinals Fans: WHAhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaa

BobaFett72

bottom line is this: with or without the smudge on his hand he dominated the Cardinals all night long.

joestalin

How pathetic was ESPN trying to make this out to be a big deal? I mean, was it really worth 40 minutes of converage on sportscenter? How
many times did Dusty Baker have to say this wasn't a big deal? I guess him saying nothing minus nothing is nothing cleared it up.
I mean I know that sports writers have a vendetta against this guy, but all this is just bush league. The guy has just been dominate...dirty
hand or clean hand. You think any ump with half a brain is going to throw out the starting pitcher from the home team in the world
series??

JS

Axtell

The players were the ones who alerted Larussa and said he had something on his hand.

And, as was mentioned before, it's not the announcers who are calling what video to come up, that's all the producer's job there. They simply comment on it.

The stories don't add up (Rogers saying no one told him to go wash his hands, Leyland saying the umps told him Rogers had to go remove it); throw in identical smudges on his hand in multiple starts (even one as far back as July - disproving the 'cold weather' claims), and you have a great deal of suspicion.

Why wasn't Larussa more animated? Why didn't he have the umps out there checking out Rogers' hand?

stown

<< <i>Why wasn't Larussa more animated? Why didn't he have the umps out there checking out Rogers' hand? >>



Because his pitchers do/did the same thing, just never got caught.

frankhardy

Here is what I find real weird. I didn't really think anything about the "incident" until I heard his post game comments. He contradicted himself with a matter of about 10 seconds.

He said, "It was a big clump of dirt. I didn't know it was there until afterwards until they told me and then I took it off. No big deal."

Then a question was asked, "Did anyone complain or approach you?"

Answer - "No, I just saw it."

Question, "so the umpires didn't approach you?"

Answer, "No."



Big contradiction. First, he basically says that he didn't notice it until someone told him. Then, he says nobody approached him, he just saw it.

Here is the link to the post game comments.

ESPN post game comments

Boopotts

Here's what I heard from Keith Olbermann on The Dan Patrick show today:

The stuff on his hands is called 'gum benjamin', a tacky substance that's used by certain musicians (like harpists) to make their fingers slightly sticky. When you put too much of it on it turns that color we saw on Rogers' hand last night. Once you wash it off it turns a very faint charcoal color, but-- and here's the thing-- it remains sticky for about a day or so. Apparently Kenny was using it because it was cold out and this stuff allows you to get a better grip on the ball.

Here are the conclusions that Olbermann came to.

1) Yes, Kenny Rogers was cheating.

2) Everyone involved-- Larussa, the umps, Leyland-- knows that virtually every pitcher uses something like this in cold weather, even though it's banned. The 'silent code', as it were, is to go ahead and use it but don't make it obvious, since if you do that everyone is going to look bad. Kenny broke this second rule.

3) Leyland spent enough time around the Cardinals staff that Larussa would be reluctant to drop a dime on Rogers, since Leyland could come back at some point in a future game and bust one of the Cards' pitchers. So, Larussa decided to try and get the whole issue to drop.

You'll notice that nobody involved who was interviewed today-- LaRussa, Cardinals pitchers, and so on-- wanted to talk about it any more. To them, apparently, the matter was closed. I would think the Cards would have moved heaven and Earth to have Rogers ejected for the entire WS, but apparently that's not how these things work.

A761506

Let's not kid ourselves here... of course it was pine tar (or a similar tacky substance). LaRussa did the right thing letting it go, it wound up having zero effect on the outcome of the game, as the Cards had their best chance off Rogers in the first inning when it was on his hand, and the media has turned it into a big circus.

If anyone honestly believes that Kenny Rogers is the only active pitcher trying to cheat to get any sort of added edge, they are only fooling themselves.

The sadest thing about this whole story - it was the top of the headline news while the suspension of one of the best defenders in the NFL for the use of performance enhancing drugs was nearly swept under the rug.

Axtell

Merriman's being swept under the rug?

I said this before, I'll say it again - I don't see that happening. Now, perhaps if this were an elite QB or WR, or some established name on defense (urlacher, for example), then I think it'd be a bigger story. But I don't think many people outside SD or really deep NFL guys even know who Merriman is.

Still, I've heard and seen his suspension and subsequent apology for 2 days now....I really don't think there's any 'sweeping' going on.

stevek

A pitcher "cheating" by scuffing up the ball? Noooooo!

80sJunkie

I agree oh my god a pitcher is cheating. he was just the 1 in a million to actually get caught

IrishMike

If it was pine tar then he would need somewhere to hide it on his uniform. Coincidentally Rogers has a black under covering on the bill of his cap and no other Tiger has. As also has been reported since July he has had the same dark smudge in the same place on his hand. It's just a coincidence I am sure.

hardcorehockeyfan

What I understand is that Rogers is so old now, that he had to start wearing Depends. I suppose, in adjusting his diaper, he had some pooh leak out. I also understand, that is why he dives all over the place to make defensive plays, so he can get dirty from the "brown" ground, so nobody will laugh at him, should some leak out on his uniform, since he cannot control his bodily functions! I read it in an AP story or something!

Edited to add: or he just had Taco Bell before the game and it hit him at the wrong time, he must live by me, cause I get the wicked liquids at times too, after consuming nature's perfect food. Taco Bell is perfect, no nutritional value whatsoever, but it fills you up until the dam breaks!