Is it possible to collect coins without being a coin investor?

MrEureka

I don't see how. The whole debate over collector vs investor is nonsense. You buy a coin, you've "invested". You hold a coin, you're "collecting" it. End of story.

Leiana

I buy coins to enjoy them, and I really don't bother with how much they might be 'worth' someday.

'Worth' is relative, anyways.

-Amanda

ABC123

If you use your logic, when you buy a Garbage Can you are both a Collector and Investor---Don't think so !

Baley

I agree Andy.

However, by saying, "I don't invest, I collect," one gets to feel morally superior and act like money doesn't matter. (which is nice and ironic because the speaker is collecting money!

coinguy1

<< <i>I don't see how. The whole debate over collector vs investor is nonsense. You buy a coin, you've "invested". You hold a coin, you're "collecting" it. End of story. >>

Andy, I disagree.

If you "hold a coin" with the intent to sell it when/if it appreciates in value, you're an investor. If you buy a coin with the intent to enjoy it and keep it in your collection, regardless of its future value, you're a collector. Stop with the nonsense, already.

fcloud

I wonder how many collectors which have purchased the 3 pc gold anniversary set became investors, and how quickly some have sold them for huge profits?

Collectors try to act like that so they are not seen as greedy, but I think everyone has some greed in them.

Coxe

Most collectors on here are indeed investors. However, there are plenty of folks who buy coins, like they would a burger, as consumable spending of nonrenewable discretionary dollars. They might be getting products from the Mint, collecting from face value (change, bank rolls), working on highly illiquid material (odd tokens, ...), ... There can be serious money in the Mint stuff, but I have known folks who buy every new proof just to satisfy the OCD collector bug seemingly with complete disregard to potential proceeds from a future sale. Other than the occasional eccentric gazillionaire who just throws money out the windows and finds coins coming back, I think most of the others are working with small change.

Longacre

The two are not mutually exclusive, and comments that they are unique animals does not have a basis in reality.

RYK

What if I have my collection destroyed after my death? Other than considering me to be a whack-job, would that change your opinion of me as a "collector-investor"?

RYK

<< <i>

<< <i>I don't see how. The whole debate over collector vs investor is nonsense. You buy a coin, you've "invested". You hold a coin, you're "collecting" it. End of story. >>

Andy, I disagree.

If you "hold a coin" with the intent to sell it when/if it appreciates in value, you're an investor. If you buy a coin with the intent to enjoy it and keep it in your collection, regardless of its future value, you're a collector. Stop with the nonsense, already. >>



I agree with the guy with the green potion.

curly

I am a pure collector. If they go up, fine, but that is not my intent. Using Andy's logic, because i bought my home, I am a real estate investor.

The time will come when I (or my heirs) will have to cash out of everything that I own. I don't think that means that everything I ever enjoyed was an investment. At least I hope not. Kind of takes the fun out of life if thats the way it is.

Leiana

What about people who collect from pocket change?

I am doing a Whitman folder of Lincolns from circulation just to see how far I can get.

-Amanda

RYK

Using Andy's logic, because i bought my home, I am a real estate investor.

And to take it a step further, am I a bagel investor (because I just bought one)?

Coxe

Because a collector (except the aforementioned gazillionaire) will buy with value in mind, it is often misinterpretted as investor greed (which is not a bad greed). There are plenty of folks who really do just collect. They might not pay just any price a dealer puts on a coin. That is not always with an eye on resale but getting proper collecing value for your bucks. Again, this would apply to few in this forum, but we hardly represent most people in the hobby.

coinguy1

<< <i>The two are not mutually exclusive, and comments that they are unique animals does not have a basis in reality. >>

OK, so maybe I'm not dealing with reality. But, I believe there are 1) collectors; 2) investors; 3) collector-investors and 4) investor-collectors. I also believe that groups #3 and #4 are much larger than groups #1 and #2

Longacre

<< <i>

<< <i>The two are not mutually exclusive, and comments that they are unique animals does not have a basis in reality. >>

OK, so maybe I'm not dealing with reality. But, I believe there are 1) collectors; 2) investors; 3) collector-investors and 4) investor-collectors. I also believe that groups #3 and #4 are much larger than groups #1 and #2 >>




I hear what you're saying. Also, my comment was not directed at you.

Shamika

<< <i>Is it possible to collect coins without being a coin investor? >>

If you never plan on selling, I'd say you are a cellector pure and simple.

Leiana

<< <i>

<< <i>Is it possible to collect coins without being a coin investor? >>

If you never plan on selling, I'd say you are a cellector pure and simple. >>



I think you could be a collector and sell, too, if you were reorganizing your collection or working on an upgrade or something.

-Amanda

bigtime36

I think so, Im 24 and i do it as a hobby, for the history of the coin and just pure enjoyment. If at sometime there worth anything thats cool, i'll be giving them to my daughter someday anyways. She can do with them what she pleases/

ColonialCoinUnion

A famous crusty old collector once told me of his experience buying some rarities for gigantic prices in the Garrett collection -

At the time, he bid whatever it took to win the coins. Afterward, in the hall outside the auction room several dealers told him the equivalent of 'you're buried, you paid way too much'.

To which he responded 'I did not buy those coins to resell them'.

So I agree with Shamika - if you buy them becuase you want them and intend to keep them, you are not an investor.

MikeInFL

<< <i>I don't see how. The whole debate over collector vs investor is nonsense. You buy a coin, you've "invested". You hold a coin, you're "collecting" it. End of story. >>



Investing entails an intent to sell. I have no such intent. I am not an investor.

UncleJoe

The items of decoration that you bought to hang on your walls, worry about the resale value of that stuff? There are many things that one buys that is not vital for one's existence that are purchased without a thought of its potential future value.

If you collected small pewter coffee creamers (like my wife ) the thought of future value never enters the picture. They are fun to find and display and to own and that's that. I find it very interesting that when it comes to coins there is always this obsession with "What's it worth?". A question that rarely comes up for my wife's creamer collection .

Joe.

saintguru

RYK is a "whack job".

TwoSides2aCoin

Q: Does the word SILVERSPOON mean anything ?
One could obtain coins without ever having invested in them. Of course, the decedent usually had a liftetime invested.

Baley

intent? again with the "intent" being in the definition?

ok, what about if you INTEND to buy the coins to keep and INTEND to invest the money you spent in your happiness and hobby enjoyment?

HA, Gotcha!

if you're spending money, you're "investing" in something, always, every time

yes, if you buy a garbage can or a hamburger, you're investing the money into some aspect of your life, and you expect some kind of return of some sort, or by definition, you wouldn't spend the money

coinguy1

<< <i>intent? again with the "intent" being in the definition?

ok, what about if you INTEND to buy the coins to keep and INTEND to invest the money you spent in your happiness and hobby enjoyment?

HA, Gotcha!

if you're spending money, you're "investing" in something, always, every time

yes, if you buy a garbage can or a hamburger, you're investing the money into some aspect of your life, and you expect some kind of return of some sort, or by definition, you wouldn't spend the money >>

I disagree, at least with respect to denotation of the word "investing":

investing
A noun
1 investing, investment

the act of investing; laying out money or capital in an enterprise with the expectation of profit

291fifth

A friend of mine has collected foreign coins by type since 1964. I believe he now has almost 5000 varieties. He doesn't know how much money he has spent on the collection. He doesn't know what the collection is worth. He has no plans to sell it. He is now in his late 70's and still adds to the collection on a regular basis.

I think it's safe to say that he is a pure collector and not an investor.

Sunnywood

When we had the "AT vs NT" debate, I strongly disagreed that intent was the only difference ... however, it is clearly intent that separates collectors from investors. The significance goes beyond the intent, because the different intents of collectors and investors lead them to different behavior when it comes to buying and selling. Investors are more likely to buy certain classes of coins, and less likely to buy others. Their holding periods will likely differ from collectors. And their impact on the market will therefore differ as well.

The fact that a collection is worth a substantial sum, and may therefore literally represent an "investment" of capital, does not make the collector an "investor" in the sense that we all understand that word to mean.

Best,
Sunnywood

Nysoto

I am a collector who invests in coins to support my collection. The past few years I have sold coins for upgrades and to get into other series. It is possible to invest in coins without being an investor, if the purpose is to continually upgrade your collection.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>A friend of mine has collected foreign coins by type since 1964. I believe he now has almost 5000 varieties. He doesn't know how much money he has spent on the collection. He doesn't know what the collection is worth. He has no plans to sell it. He is now in his late 70's and still adds to the collection on a regular basis.

I think it's safe to say that he is a pure collector and not an investor. >>


I think it's safe to say that he has invested even more than money. Time is also an investment.

Baley

with the expectation of profit

and if my soul has grown, and my enjoyment of life has been enriched? then I have profited.

If I invest my time in exercise, then I can expect a profit of better health;

"capital" can be defined as money, or other resource capital such as time or effort

sure, in the strictest sense of any definitions, one can argue anything.

but why argue?

because investing the time and keystrokes is fun, and the profit is enjoyment?

410a

Now that was well put, but even if you are holding a coin
you are holding the investment. I think this whole debate is
a coy way for the market to say how deep your pockets are.
Look at it this way no matter the grade most coins, for what
they are, can be expensive. Even if you go with low grades
check out the prices for putting together most sets. There seems
to always be a stopper. Or a coin that costs so much it
requires "investment money", JUST FOR EXAMPLE Collect half cents in VF or Fine check the price for an 1802 they don't exist over VF.
Collect to coin a phrase "Modern Crap" which is a phase I don't use,
but look at the price of a 1995W ASE. An ounce of silver a neat
mint made rarity for 6 GRAND!
There is no debate. Relatively speaking coins are expensive and
prices flucuate and "Opportunity Cost" is always a factor with
your money.

410a

"Buried" yes, and as Art Kagin once said; "Time has a way of
bailing us out". Although sometimes "getting buried in a coin"
is just plain "getting buried in a coin"

bhartman35

Generally, I'd agree with the sentiment that if you buy a coin for the sake of the coin, and not in hopes of selling it for more later, you're a collector, not an investor. That's not to say, though, that a collector wouldn't sell his or her coins. I can think of at least two scenarios where a collector would sell:

1) They've got a not-that-great coin that they want to sell to get money for a great one.
2) They've got a great coin that they want to sell to get something that's higher-priority (e.g., that coronary bypass surgery they've been putting off .)

TahoeDale

As if this thread needs more life....

I collect Western Art--oils, bronzes from noted artists. All are purchased for the beauty, and I have never sold a piece of art, for "upgrades" or to turn a profit or loss.

I invest/collect rare coins, as I have sold many along the way, as my needs changed, or interest waned. And it has been an important part of the learning experience.

Until one has negotiated with a dealer( to sell one's coins), consigned to an auction(terms are a required factor), and felt the joy or dismay at the end of a sale, the entire spectrum of coin collecting can never be completed.

The term "investor" should not be maligned. The additional transactions only expand the knowledge one obtains

lloydmincy

My surprise is the uncommon primative "thesis" Andy so quickly wrote regarding his thread title. But Mark (Feld) has is correct:

With the expectation of a profit

Is it safe to say everytime you SPEND money you are investing it? It can be true. The garbage can, hamburger example is food for thought (no pun intended). The hamburger: Your "profit" is the satisfaction of your hunger, at the same time, the pleasure of the taste of your "investment", which can arguably be said is the "profit return". The "profit return" of the garbage can is the savings of time and energy with regards to buying bags every month, or not having to make more trips to the curb without the use of a can.
Remember the term is: EXPECTATION of a profit. The hamburger could be a bad-tasting one, thus you EXPECTED a "profit", invested, but this time it didn't work out.

Everytime I buy a coin, I FULLY INTEND to never sell them again. I NEVER think of any monetary profit return in the future when I buy - because I am (planning to) placing it in my possession for life. So am I "expecting a profit"???

I am. But it is not monetary, nor does it have to be. I will look at those coins hundreds of times, read up on them continuously, and thus my return is the history and beauty of those coins. I have not only "invested" money to own the coin, but now my TIME will be heavily invested with the enjoyment of them in my possession.

I have sold many: To invest in something to someday be able to buy more coins, and hold onto them forever.

If we (on this forum) believe like I do, ALL money spent is in one way or another some form of investment, then...

...NO ONE CAN BE A COLLECTOR!!!

UncleJoe

So when I go to a Casino and make a wager at the Craps table am I investing because I have an expectation of profit (even if it is not a reasonable expectation)?

The problem is that we are not all using the same definition of investor or what constitutes investing.

Is the person that buys (5) lottery tickets every week "investing" for their retirement?

Joe.

mgoodm3

<< <i>Using Andy's logic, because i bought my home, I am a real estate investor.

And to take it a step further, am I a bagel investor (because I just bought one)? >>



Well, don't eat it, then it wouldn't be a good investment.

I think the investor/collector distinction is a continuum with most falling somewhere in between the two.

Baley

Well said. BUT we like to categorize and label things in a binary, mutually exclusive fashion!

I am a collector, not an investor! I'm not I'm Not I'M NOT!!

it's either AT or it's NT, one or the other! It's too complex an issue to see or comprehend nuances! We wants it simple!

it should slab or it shouldn't!! one or the other, 2 choices, pick one!


it's a "modern" or it's a "classic"? well which is it, which one?

Well guys, most things are some of both, as Mark and others have said.


So if someone gets pride and satisfaction out of saying they're a "pure" collector, well, Bully for them!

coinguy1

<<I think the investor/collector distinction is a continuum with most falling somewhere in between the two.>>

That is correct, not to mention, difficult to argue with.

Sunnywood

<< <i><<I think the investor/collector distinction is a continuum with most falling somewhere in between the two.>>

That is correct, not to mention, difficult to argue with. >>



Sorry, I will argue with that. There are plenty of folks out there who are in it strictly for profit, and plenty who couldn't care less about profiting from coins. Continuum, perhaps, but I don't know if most fall somewhere in between. As a collector, I may buy duplicates while building a set, and I may sell them. I may sell off entire sets in order to pursue new ones. And I may prefer not to lose money when I sell. But I am still a collector, not an investor.

It's kinda like saying that sexuality is a continuum and everyone is somewhere in between. I never agreed with that either LOL ... most folks are either on one end or other !!!

Open forum ...

Best,
Sunnywood

coinguy1

Sunnywood, you are strongly to one end of the continuum. However, most "collectors" have some "investor" in them and most "investors" have some "collector" in them. That is why I use 4 groups to describe coin buyers: 1) collector; 2) investor; 3) investor-collector and 4) collector-investor. And, I believe that groups #3 and #4 are much larger than groups #1 and #2.

Sunnywood

I really asked for it with that post ...

I think many of the "in between" would be strictly collectors if the coins weren't so darned expensive. When you've got substantial resources buried in your collection, it becomes harder to ignore the valuation over time.

coinguy1

<< <i> I really asked for it with that post ...

I think many of the "in between" would be strictly collectors if the coins weren't so darned expensive. When you've got substantial resources buried in your collection, it becomes harder to ignore the valuation over time. >>

Agreed, on all counts.

mgoodm3

The contimuum also allows for 0% collector and 100% collector. I didn't say all fall in between.

Baley

I want to say that I'm 101% collector and -1% investor (I buy with the expectation of losing a little money)

Will that be ok?

Coxe

<< <i>I want to say that I'm 101% collector and -1% investor (I buy with the expectation of losing a little money)

Will that be ok? >>



I like that one!

cladking

Human behavior is dictated by individual beliefs. It is not always even possible to distill
these beliefs into neat packages reflecting intent along lines such as collector/ investor.
The beliefs themselves are not always well defined or well known to the individual and
can manifest themselves in ways incongruent or tangentially to the belief itself. One can't
say he has no intent to sell because this presupposes many conditions including no change
of heart just as one can't say he'll sell at the first opportunity because it presupposes that
he might see a chjance to "invest" more if the opportunity presents.

In my case I started as nearly pure investor with the moderns and have gravitated to near-
ly a pure collector over a third of a century, but this hardly means I won't sell anything as
opportunity presents itself. I'm not rushing out to sell duplicates because I think they'll bring
more in the future.

While the premise of the thread may be literally true, it is probably practically false.

keets

Is it possible to collect coins without being a coin investor?

no.

Coinhog

yep, just collect circulated state quarters from your pocket change.

bhartman35

<< <i>

<< <i>Using Andy's logic, because i bought my home, I am a real estate investor.

And to take it a step further, am I a bagel investor (because I just bought one)? >>



Well, don't eat it, then it wouldn't be a good investment.

I think the investor/collector distinction is a continuum with most falling somewhere in between the two. >>



I don't see where there's room for a continuum here. Either you buy a coin with the expectation that it will increase in value so you (or someone else) can sell it, or you buy it to keep in your collection, because you want it there. There's only a continuum if you take "investor" in its broadest possible context. If you buy a ticket for a Disney movie, are you investing in Disney? Of course not. You're just buying a product. The point at which you cross the line to investing in coins is where you're either watching the price of precious metals or watching the price of your coins in a price guide.