1914-1915 Cracker Jack cards, WOW!

Blackborder · October 22, 2006 1:58PM

I just joined a couple of weeks ago, getting back into collecting after a couple of years (previously collected coins). I've started a 1985 Topps football set and just sent in my first ones for grading.

I just read through the free book (cardboard gems) that you get when you join the collectors club. Some of those vintage baseball cards are incredible, particularly the 1914-1915 Cracker Jack and 1911 Turkey Red cards. I'm definately starting a 1915 Cracker Jack set. It will have to be low grade, PSA 3-4, because of the cost, but wow, these are awsome cards!

Anyone else here collecting these?

Griffins · October 22, 2006 3:22PM

I am- I'm one card off finishing the '15 set, and need about half of the 23 variations in the '14 set. IMO it's one of the best designed sets of all time, and the player selection is stellar.
Best of luck on your quest.
If you win the lottery there is a '15 set that is just below 8.00 up for sale right now!

QUIK · October 22, 2006 8:42PM

I also love this stuff and am 40% of a 1914 set psa 1-6 mostlys 1-3 though just trying to find them in any grade is fun mu set is the # 6 set in the 1914's if anyone cares to see Jeff

Stone193 · October 23, 2006 1:37AM

Hi Blackborder

First off - Welcome!

I've been collecting continuous since 1989 but started way earlier.

The 85T set is a beauty - check out the "mailcall' thread - you'll find some people doing the set. They will also be a good source for advice - e.g. some sets - you can find the commons cheaper on ebay than the submission costs - and in 9.

I'm only doing two sets right now in vintage - the T3 and the 63F BB. I bought this card raw and it came back a 6! I was very lucky. My set is on the registry - I'm currently at 15%.

My only advice? Keep a narrow collecting focus and you'll save a lot of money.

Good luck
your friend
mike

Blackborder · October 23, 2006 10:30AM

Stone193, awsome card, thanks for sharing.

Does anyone have a good feel for how many Cracker Jack raw cards are reprints on ebay being sold as genuine? Knowing ebay as I do, I bet it's above 90%, but that's obviously just a guess.

Anyone have any collecting tips to share also?

Thanks!

Griffins · October 23, 2006 10:48AM

Reprint CJ's are pretty easy to detect, even from scans. After my first initial purchase of CJ's raw (that were all real, but grossly overgraded and non returnable) I only bought slabbed, but occassionally look at the raw offerings. It looks like a fair amount are reprints, but it also looks like they rarely get any takers, so I think for the most part everyone knows the difference.
When I decided to start a new set 5 years ago it was between T3's and Cracker Jacks, and I chose Cracker Jacks. Might not have been the best choice, since T3's have probably shot up more than just about any other vintage issue, but there is a lot more players to select from and CJ's are available in higher quality. Even with the rise in prices a T3 set would end up costing you a whole lot less than a '15 Cracker Jack set in comparable condition, and a '14 set (due to Matty) would cost you considerably more than a '15 set, at a lower grade level.
Either one, Cracker Jack or T3, is a classic set though, so you can't go wrong.

ajw · October 23, 2006 10:56AM

Anyone have a link to the article about a find of a complete presentation set of one of the Cracker Jack sets? It was graded by SGC and the vast majority of the cards were in the 92-98 range. Just incredible. I searched google and the SGC page but couldn't find it. SGC used to have a really nice page discussing the set in general and that specific find. It's gotta be around somewhere.

baseballfanatic · October 23, 2006 11:03AM

<< Anyone have a link to the article about a find of a complete presentation set of one of the Cracker Jack sets? It was graded by SGC and the vast majority of the cards were in the 92-98 range. Just incredible. I searched google and the SGC page but couldn't find it. SGC used to have a really nice page discussing the set in general and that specific find. It's gotta be around somewhere. >>

http://www.sgc1914crackerjack.com/home.html

ajw · October 23, 2006 12:39PM

<< 

<< Anyone have a link to the article about a find of a complete presentation set of one of the Cracker Jack sets? It was graded by SGC and the vast majority of the cards were in the 92-98 range. Just incredible. I searched google and the SGC page but couldn't find it. SGC used to have a really nice page discussing the set in general and that specific find. It's gotta be around somewhere. >>

http://www.sgc1914crackerjack.com/home.html >>

Easy Linky (thanks, baseballfanatic, I need to bookmark this one)

Stone193 · October 23, 2006 12:42PM

Anthony

That's one sweet 5!

Thanx for sharing
mike

2dueces · October 23, 2006 1:12PM

<<

Anthony

That's one sweet 5!

Thanx for sharing
mike >>

I second that motion. That's a beauty.

Blackborder · October 24, 2006 10:37AM

Awsome cards!

librtyhead · October 24, 2006 10:55AM

Wow! those are very cool!

Blackborder · October 28, 2006 10:21AM

I just bought this card, and probably paid too much but I like it. Another reason I think these are a neat set is the inclusion of the Federal League teams. Very cool to see professional teams from Buffalo and Indianapolis.

Griffins · October 28, 2006 10:40AM

Blackborder- Congrats! One down, 175 more to go! CJ's are the only set to picture players in Federal League uniform, with about 4 from each team. Other issues show the players with those teams, but don't picture them in the Federals uniform.

Here's a bit of trivia quiz- what is the only card to show a subject in the Continental League? This was a league formed in the late '50's to bring baseball back to New York after the Dodgers and Giants left, along with other cities.

Blackborder · October 28, 2006 10:50AM

<< Here's a bit of trivia quiz- what is the only card to show a subject in the Continental League? This was a league formed in the late '50's to bring baseball back to New York after the Dodgers and Giants left, along with other cities. >>

Great question! I have no idea. I even tried cheating on google and couldn't find it.

edit because wrong smiley's came up

Griffins · October 28, 2006 2:47PM

Baseball Fanatic is certainly worthy of his screen name

Some Federal Leaguers for BlackBorder

sagard · October 28, 2006 3:13PM

This is about the coolest thing I've seen on the subject.

Stone193 · October 28, 2006 3:26PM

Anthony

Now the Doolan is off the chart!

Superb - looks like a 9.
mike

Blackborder · October 28, 2006 10:55PM

<< 
Some Federal Leaguers for BlackBorder >>

Awsome cards! This one is one of my favorites in the set.

Blackborder · October 28, 2006 10:57PM

Question: On the back of the cards, it says something about sending in for an album to hold the cards. Has anyone ever seen or heard of a 1915 Cracker Jack album?

thesplendidsplinter · October 29, 2006 12:13AM

<< Question: On the back of the cards, it says something about sending in for an album to hold the cards. Has anyone ever seen or heard of a 1915 Cracker Jack album? >>

Griffins just got ANOTHER album! I want to be like him someday. And with his help, I will be!

Blackborder · October 30, 2006 9:34AM

<< Griffins just got ANOTHER album! I want to be like him someday. And with his help, I will be!

>>

Cool! any pics or history of the albums?

Griffins · October 30, 2006 9:43AM

The albums were part of a mail in offer on the back of the cards issued in 1915. Basically it's an embossed cover with black pages inside, bound by a string. They are fairly hard to come by but not overly expensive.
I bought the one below a year or so ago from a prominant seller on ebay. I asked first if it was complete, and he said yes. When I got it it wasn't, and it took over a month and a lot of hassling to get a refund. 6 months later another popped up on ebay and I asked that seller if it was complete, with pages. Again a yes, and not only was it not complete, it was the same exact one- the first seller had relisted it with no disclosure.
The one I"m upgrading from is lit a lot better than the one I just won in Mastro (they should hire a new photographer), so I'm posting that image:

The latest issue of Old Cardboard has a very detailed article on '14-15 Cracker Jacks, along with an image gallery of every card in the two years they were issued.

Edited to add: it's speculated that the backs were printed upside down on the '15's (the '14's are right side up, and that is one of the ways to tell the difference) so that when placed in the album and attached at the top the bottom of the card could be lifted up so the back could be read.

Griffins · October 30, 2006 9:44AM

Here's the Mastro one, better condition with the tie

Blackborder · October 30, 2006 10:46AM

Nice and very interesting! Thanks Griffins!

benderbroeth · October 30, 2006 11:36AM

<< I just bought this card, and probably paid too much but I like it. Another reason I think these are a neat set is the inclusion of the Federal League teams. Very cool to see professional teams from Buffalo and Indianapolis.

>>

i believe i sold that card to LEVI...now that is to funny....lol

Blackborder · October 30, 2006 12:22PM

bender, do you collect CJ's?

ajw · October 30, 2006 12:34PM

This one is interesting: Cobb Cracker Jack.

Griffins · October 30, 2006 12:59PM

The Cobb is very cool. Lipset had the entire strip a few years ago, all individually cut. I don't believe the full ad sheet exists anymore.

benderbroeth · October 30, 2006 1:01PM

<< bender, do you collect CJ's? >>

i thought about it but i think with the JOE JACKSON cards it is way ouyt of my price range.

Griffins · October 30, 2006 1:09PM

Since there seems to be a bit of interest in this set, he's the post I wrote on another board about a year ago. Much of the information comes from Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards

In 1914 the Cracker Jack Company of Brooklyn and Chicago began inserting baseball cards into its boxes of popcorn and peanut candy. This set (and the one that followed, in 1915) have become one of the iconic sets of the pre WW1 era, and one of the most popular baseball card sets of all time.
The 1914 set was issued as baseball was experiencing a semblance of stability, but that would be short lived. President Taft had thrown out the first pitch a few years earlier (in 1910), giving the sport even more recognition as the National Game, and stars such as Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson and Shoeless Joe Jackson were either in their primes or near to it. Connie Mack’s Athletics and John McGraw’s Giants were the dominating teams of the era, and the dead ball era was in its golden age.
However, in 1914 a new league began raiding players from the established 2 leagues. While the Federal League would only last 2 seasons, those seasons corresponded exactly with Cracker Jacks offerings, and would be the only cards ever issued picturing Federal League players in uniform. In all, 50 Federal League players are pictured.
Comparisons between the 2 sets are natural, since in many ways they are exactly the same. Both feature a player image on a red background, with “Cracker Jack Ball Players” across the top (occasionally bleeding over into the white border) and the player’s name and team affiliation at the bottom. The ’14 set, however, contain 144 subjects, while the ’15 set adds another 32 players for a total of 176.
‘14’s are printed on somewhat thinner paper stock, but both sets are on lighter weight paper (rather than cardboard) than most other issues. If you flip the card over the reverse of the ‘14’s are printed right side up, while the ‘15’s are flipped. The reason for this is that an album was offered with the ‘15’s, and the thinking was that if the cards were pasted in the album the backs should be upside down, so that the card need only be lifted up at the bottom to read the bio on the back.
Cracker Jacks have no white ink in the printing process, so that any areas in the image that are white should match the tone of the borders. This is a critical step in identifying forgeries. As there are few, if any, reprints of ‘14’s, the border matching and the upside down backs (reprints are not printed upside down) are the keys to avoid getting a fake.
The ’14 set has an ad on the bottom reverse, stating that it is a series of 144 and either 10 million (cards 1-87) or 15 million (88-144) were issued. The ’15 set has an offer whereby a full set can be obtained via mail in for 100 coupons or 1 coupon and 25 cents. This accounts for a great number of pristine ‘15’s, while ‘14’s are often found stained and in much lower condition.
As stated above, the ’15 set took the first 144 cards of the ’14 and added another 32 cards. However, there are a few exceptions to this. Some players were changed, a few poses were altered, and some players changed teams. Taking this into account, a “master” set of all variations would total 199 different cards, not counting the ad on the back.

The key variations:

#48 Harry Lord was replaced by Steve O’Neil in ’15
#60 Rollie Zeider had 2 cards in ’14, 60 and 116, with different pictures. #60 was replaced with Oscar Dugey in ’15
#62 Jay Cashion in ’14, Willie Mitchell in ’15
#88 The big one. 2 players remained in both sets, but with pose changes. The most significant is Christy Mathewson. The ’14 is a pitching pose, the ’15 is a portrait. The ’14 is extremely desirable and is quickly becoming one of the most expensive cards of the era.
#93 Derrill Pratt. Pose change, once again throwing to portrait.
#99 Another highly desirable player change. Frank Chance was replaced by Hal Chase in ’15. In the last 3 years I’ve seen a lot less of Chance than of the Matty, but it goes for less.
#111 Nixey Calahan replaced by Herb Moran.

In addition, the following players cards reflected different team affiliations in ’15- 6,7,19,29,38,40,43,47,55,66,92,108,118,121,125,134

Lastly, the ‘14 Bresnahan (#17) comes with and without the number printed on the back.

Horizontal cards are the same in both sets (with the exception of Matty) and command a premium over the standard vertical cards. They are:
38 (Gandil), 40 (Austin), 43 (Marquard), 44 (Tesreau), 91 (Peckinpaugh),92 (Demaree), 95 (Keating), and 96 (Becker).

The album for the ’15 set consists of little more than an embossed tan cover over black pages. As it is not very desirable they don’t go for a premium- about $400. They were originally offered for 50 coupons or 1 coupon and 10 cents.

Care must be taken when acquiring Cracker Jacks, as they are easily doctored. As staining is common they are prime candidates for bleaching, and this has gone undetected in the past. Trimming is also common in raw cards.

SMR lists #32 in the ’15 set (Three Finger Brown) as being a very difficult card, but I have seen no evidence to back up that claim. If any card can be considered tougher than others it would probably be Alexander.

benderbroeth · October 30, 2006 1:40PM

great research stuff there.

Blackborder · November 5, 2006 8:15AM

Thanks Griffins! Excellent reading! Are there any additional web articles/sites you can recommend? Thanks again!

Griffins · November 5, 2006 9:49AM

The latest issue of Old Cardboard has an article on CJ's by Lew Lipset, and a gallery of every single card. Definitely worth the $8 or whatever for the issue.
Other than that keep an eye on the Net 54 board, CU's boards don't really have many vintage threads.

Blackborder · November 21, 2006 3:57PM

<< CJ's are the only set to picture players in Federal League uniform, with about 4 from each team. Other issues show the players with those teams, but don't picture them in the Federals uniform >>

Which other card sets feature Federal League players?

fdnyladder7 · November 21, 2006 11:25PM

These here CJ's are out of this world! The Honus needs no praise but I particularly like the Fed League terrapin logo (Doolan). Thanks for sharing these beauties.

Blackborder · December 16, 2006 4:05AM

I bought a couple of low grade raw cards and just got the submission results back. They are in line with what I was expecting them to grade.

1915 CRACKER JACK 135 BILL KILLIFER (KILLEFER) 2
1915 CRACKER JACK 139 ERNEST T. OAKES N/A 3

Blackborder · December 31, 2006 4:37AM

I just got my copy of Sports Market Report. Is it me or are the common values listed for PSA 4 ($60-70) and PSA 5 ($100-$120) way low? PSA 4's seem to go on ebay in the $100 range and PSA 5's in the $175-$225 range.

Griffins · December 31, 2006 4:53AM

SMR is way off. IMO the only accurate price guide has to be an online one, since print deadlines are so far in advance.
Additionally, I think the best way to have a price guide is by showing past realized sales, not one flat price. The same card in the same grade can vary widely depending on a variety of factors, and rather than have an average I'd rather see all the sales and draw my own conclusions.

Edited to add- according to vintagecardprices.com , common '15 PSA 4's have ranged in realized price from $67. to $255.
PSA 5's from $84. to $282.

Blackborder · January 6, 2007 6:28AM

Is there a list of Federal League players that are definately known to be in Federal League uniforms on CJ cards? Some are obvious, some are obviously photos of players in their former team uniform, and some are ambiguous (at least to me).

Griffins · January 6, 2007 6:38AM

Blackborder- pm sent.

67standup · January 6, 2007 8:01AM

Anyone have a Hughie Jennings to sell?

Griffins · January 6, 2007 8:59AM

Andrew- will you settle for a T3?

scooter729 · January 13, 2007 12:59AM

I just received this in the mail from the Heritage Jan. 1 auction - 4 1915 Cracker Jacks framed together. VERY excited with this piece - looks even nicer in person than in the photo!

Griffins · January 13, 2007 5:38AM

Scooter, that is really nice!

stormsurge · January 13, 2007 6:06AM

Thanks for shariing all the great scans!

I'm a big lover of Cracker Jack cards myself - as you can see from my avatar lol

I started on the set a couple of years ago and have about 10 so far - if anyone is interested I can try and post of few from my collection. My most recent addition (still waiting for it to arrive) is a HOF card in PSA 7 - my first in the set!

thesplendidsplinter · January 13, 2007 6:25AM

Scooter, that will look great on your wall

Griffins · January 13, 2007 6:35AM

Stormsurge- what HOF did you get?
I just picked up 2 more upgrades- Owen and Maranville. It's the last two I had in other holders that wouldn't cross, and now all I need is the dreaded Joe Jackson. Anyone got a nice PSA 6 for the cost of a kidney?

Blackborder · January 13, 2007 6:54AM

If anyone has any 1915 (cheap) low grade (1-3) raw or psa, I'd be interested as long as they aren't missing paper or heavily stained.

stormsurge · January 13, 2007 8:28AM

Griffins,

70 - Fred Clarke

1914-1915 Cracker Jack cards, WOW!

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