Clutch, Rings, Arod, making others better...
Skinpinch
Posts: 1,531
in Sports Talk
For everyone that is finally recognizing that baseball players don't make other baseball players better, please do not bring up the number of 'rings' a baseball player has, when determining his worth as a player. The rings are one part player, and 100 parts other things out of the players control. So please stop using rings as any type of criteria to determine the value of an individual player in a team sport.
Also, for those who also recognize that football and basketball players have such a direct impact on each other's performance, again, please stop using rings to determine the players worth in a team sport, as his rings simply don't come unless the the other 1,000 pieces fall into place.
As for Arod's clutch, or lack therof? He had a miserable year defensively, subpar for him offensively, and sucked in the playofffs. Do not get caught up in small sample sizes in clutch data. If one has to harp on his poor post season play the last two years, THEN one CANNOT disregard his other excellent post season series previously! Even all taken together, he still does not have enough post season at bats to make a clutch/not clutch determination. If one looks at the history of post season performance, you should see the yo-yo effect of players performance. It is much more a result of randomness, than any 'personality' trait. I've shown many examples on these boards before, but people tend to gloss over them so that their point may seem valid...especially about Arod.
Are Arod's skills diminsihing? That is a legit topic, and that may actually be happening. That descent must happen sooner or later, and it happens sooner for some and later for others.
Also, for those who also recognize that football and basketball players have such a direct impact on each other's performance, again, please stop using rings to determine the players worth in a team sport, as his rings simply don't come unless the the other 1,000 pieces fall into place.
As for Arod's clutch, or lack therof? He had a miserable year defensively, subpar for him offensively, and sucked in the playofffs. Do not get caught up in small sample sizes in clutch data. If one has to harp on his poor post season play the last two years, THEN one CANNOT disregard his other excellent post season series previously! Even all taken together, he still does not have enough post season at bats to make a clutch/not clutch determination. If one looks at the history of post season performance, you should see the yo-yo effect of players performance. It is much more a result of randomness, than any 'personality' trait. I've shown many examples on these boards before, but people tend to gloss over them so that their point may seem valid...especially about Arod.
Are Arod's skills diminsihing? That is a legit topic, and that may actually be happening. That descent must happen sooner or later, and it happens sooner for some and later for others.
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<< <i>Skin, that's all well and good, but let's be real here; A-Rod is many things, clutch ain't one of 'em. Don't believe me? No need to go digging thru stats, just watch a few games, and sooner or later you'll come to the conclusion so many of us Yankees fans have: A-Rod ain't clutch! >>
Yes, because a 'few games' will tell you all you ever need to know about a player, right?
What an absolutely ridiculous comment.
<< <i>
Are Arod's skills diminsihing? That is a legit topic, and that may actually be happening. >>
It is obvious to me. Especially in the field.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
But ARod has fans booing him waaaaa waaaaa waaaaaa
But ARod doesnt have the captain coddling him waaaaaa waaaaa waaaaa
Its time to quite the crying and start performing when it matters!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Mantle/Berra, I've wathced plenty of games, but there is no way I am relying on the 'perception' of a fan...waaay too faulty on many levels. The perception of Yankee fans last year(2005 season) was that Arod hit the majority of his Home Runs when the game was well within hand, win or losing. The fact of the matter was that was as far from the truth as can possibly be. Yankee fans swore by this, and they said the same thing, the game was in hand is only when he hit. When you actually looked at what occured, the fans were flat out wrong about that, and I posted the info on this board about that.
What then happened next was that the Yankee fans quickly moved to the next thing(once they realized their statement wasn't accurate), they moved onto the topic that he never hit well in Late/Close games. He did have numbers that were lower in those situations than his overall numbers, so he did do that(but not to any terrible degree). When I pointed out that Jeter had similar differences in the late/close situations, that aspect was disregarded, and Jeter was given an A O.K. because he had a few big post season moments in the past.
Clutch, it seems to me, that many have a warped view on clutch as it stands. If Arod hit three grand slams in innings 1, 3, and 6, and they were down 13-12 going into the bottom of ninth, and he came up with bases loaded and struck out to end the game, he would be considered not clutch becauase "He couldn't do it with the game on the line." Sometimes the caveman in us never leaves, thus the reason for such goofy logic.
Clutch is used so often by announcers and fans, it is just used in such stupid terms all the time. People just simply don't sit back and think things through. They are ruled by their emotions, and sports fans(boopotts post your discourse on fans again), are the worst people in world to garner an objective thought from. So no, I wouldn't take your word on whether or not he was clutch. Though it is possible you are getting him on his down swing(though you have no excuses for 2005 as he did quite well). He also did well in the 2004 post season with NY. You can't ignore all his good 'clutch' moments and simply focus on his bad 'clutch' moments and then eureka, give him that lable. You have to give Joe MOrgan that lable too then, as he was horrible in the post season, and they won two WS. This excercise can be done throughout.
END OF STORY. He's no more clutch than any other player - he's just been given so many opportunities it appears he's 'clutch'.
God you guys are beyond retarded sometimes.
<< <i>And jeter's so 'clutch' (only in the minds of the easily fooled yankee fans) because he HAS MORE POSTSEASON AT BATS THAN ANY OTHER PLAYER IN HISTORY.
END OF STORY. He's no more clutch than any other player - he's just been given so many opportunities it appears he's 'clutch'.
God you guys are beyond retarded sometimes. >>
Ohhh pipe down sister. The whole Jeter smear campaign on this board goes WELL beyond "clutch" and "post season" and and and HOW DARE the Yankee fan try and defend him. How DARE the Yankee fan say anything
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>And jeter's so 'clutch' (only in the minds of the easily fooled yankee fans) because he HAS MORE POSTSEASON AT BATS THAN ANY OTHER PLAYER IN HISTORY.
END OF STORY. He's no more clutch than any other player - he's just been given so many opportunities it appears he's 'clutch'.
God you guys are beyond retarded sometimes. >>
But yet, on another thread, were'nt you comparing ARod's post season average vs Jeter and how ARod was comparable even with the difference in at bats? LMAO What a joke ya DOPE! Once again you're a proven hypocrite!!
<< <i>Do you believe some hitters make other hitters better by providing "protection" such as Manny Ramiriez providing "protection" for David Ortiz? >>
Of course, in this case especially. Look at how pitchers treat Ortiz when he bats with no one behind him, but look at how they have to pitch to him when Manny bats behind him. I know you don't agree Skinpinch - but it seems obvious enough to me.
Again, if putting the best hitter behind a guy makes him better, then we should see that occur every time a hitter gets somebody better behind him, but it doesn't. It is an easy exercise.
We already know the actual results of having either good or bad hitters behind the guys, and we know that it doesn't affect their performance at all. RUns and RBI are not the true measure of performance(and that is the mistake the fans make). Again, the better the hitter behind, the more runs will be scored, BECAUSE THERE IS A BETTER HITTER IN THE LINEUP. but it doesn't make anybody better. It isn't about believing, or agreeing, it is the reality of what has occured.
<< <i>Axtell, the problem with your position is that it's not just Yankee fans who think that of Jeter. It's MANY of his baseball peers. It's journalists from all over the country outside of New York. Are they all just delusional or more likely are you just an irrational hater who lives to hate because you obviously have some personal issues to deal with? >>
I wonder how many of these journalists are based on the east coast, smack dab in the middle of NY? I'd guess it's a large majority of them.
<< <i>Ohhh pipe down sister. The whole Jeter smear campaign on this board goes WELL beyond "clutch" and "post season" and and and HOW DARE the Yankee fan try and defend him. How DARE the Yankee fan say anything >>
Still waiting for dopes like you to tell me what responsibilties a 'captain' has? Can't tell me? I thought so.
<< <i>But yet, on another thread, were'nt you comparing ARod's post season average vs Jeter and how ARod was comparable even with the difference in at bats? LMAO What a joke ya DOPE! Once again you're a proven hypocrite!! >>
What does batting average have to do with ANYTHING I've said you friggin buffoon? I said that jeter has a mythology surrounding him about coming up time and time again in 'clutch' situations, when, in fact, you put any .300 hitter in the same number of situations, he's going to come through the same number of times.
God you guys are idiotic!
In 2005 Edgar Renteria filled this position, and he had the worst year of his career(since he broke out). Based on your rationale, Renteria should have hit 30 homers, not get worse. Do this exercise with every player in history, and it will be seen that it really doesnt matter who hits behind you...it doesn't make that player better, and if for some reason he gets a few more strikes to hit, it certainly doesn't translate into any results, therefore, it doesn't matter.
It is just silly. If I wanted to make a guy all of a sudden better, then I would simply get a better hitter behind him? YEah, that will make my TEAM better by virtue of having that extra nice hitter, and we will score more runs as a result, but it won't make the other guys better.
P.S. I realize this is hard for most fans to embrace. Fans are basically brainwashed by mindless explanations of 'why', either by other fans, or by broadcasters trying to make the game dramatic or exciting(or by ESPN hollow announcers). If that is all you are told your whole life, why would one belive something else? That is why I often liken this stuff to Atlas. If your parents tell you your whole life that a guy named Atlas holds up the earth, you tend to believe them...doesn't matter if it is true or not, or has no factual basis whatsoever.
Skin,
I know you spend an inordinate amount of time researching baseball statistics, but I think it's not so much what you say but how you present it. Your responses to anyone with an opinion different from yours is very arrogant and bombastic, and I think that, more than anything, rubs people the wrong way.
While statistics are no doubt extremely important when it comes to measuring a player's performance, there are certain intangibles that stats fail to capture. Arod's production (or lack thereof for most Yankee fans who've seen him fail in the clutch time and time again) is a classic example of why stats do NOT always tell the whole story.
But hey, I'm just a brainwashed Met fan, so what do I know!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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The brainwashing is quite accurate. Thats all fans hear, he was clutch, he choked, blah balh, from announcers, talk radio, you name it. Most of those things are said because it is far more exciting than telling the fan that it resulted from part ability/part randomness of occurance. Fans don't want to hear that. They want, "Wow and a Clutch hit." Or " that guy choked, he always fails in big moments." Of course, they typically ignore the moments where he didnt' fail.
It isn't even statistics in the terms you are thinking, it mostly just an organizing of the reality of what occured, as opposed to going by memory or perception(because those fail all the time).
I just saw Chavez make one of the best post season catches ever, I guess he too is now clutch and can expect a better contract because he can perform in the spotlight
Topps, I've said it before, how could Yankee fans not embrace Jeter...he was intertwined in everything, and you guys were part of it. His over hyped 'clutchness' or 'intangibles' actually detract from how good a player he really is. He doesn't need that stuff to show how good a player he is. The guy was the best player in the AL this year, that should suffice. Many fans don't recognize why he was the best, and it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the clutch or intangible aspect.
Well, you're right on that note, anyway!
Of course, Chavez is already one of the top fielding outfielders in the NL, so that catch just adds to his value.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
Hope you got time, cause it'll be a long wait!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
But Arod has done it in the post season! Actually had some good series with the Yanks too! Maybe the '04 collapse started this whole thing, led to the misconception in 2005 of Arod only hitting in lopsided games, and then this past year he had the worst year of his career(but still was well above average).
His overall close/late results are a smidege low, and that can change as those occurances aren't cemented with a lot of at bats.
P.S. I guess I was wrong about Chavez getting a pay raise for that catch....he hopped on the post season yo-yo that is known all too well and popped out weakly with the bases loaded. So is he now a choker?
<< <i>I HOPE AROD GOES BYE BYE >>
Of course you do...you aren't really a fan of any team and yet you think your opinion matters.
Look, Arod's not as bad in the postseason as yankee fans want to let on, and jeter's not as good as the same fans idolize him to be. It's all a matter of perception, and what said 'fans' want to believe.
Want to think that jeter comes up huge in every opportunity, and overlook the numbers that prove otherwise? That's your choice, but completely and totally undermines your credibility. The same with Arod - overlook what he's really done in the postseason (disregarding what the media wants to preach to you) and you'll look as silly.