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1835 is the second informative picture thread covering the Capped Bust Half series. Show your Bust H
mozin
Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
This is the second in a series of informative picture threads covering the lettered edge Capped Bust Half Dollars from 1807-36 in reverse year order. 1834 starts Sunday 10/29, 1833 starts Thursday 11/2 and this pattern continues on down.
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. To begin this series, I would like to start the first three threads myself, and then open it up for anyone to open threads as the next year start times come up. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
There are 8 obverses and 8 reverses, to make 11 different marriages for 1835, including O-111 R8. For 1835, there are five different “5”s used in “50C”.
Some diagnostics for 1835 O-107 R1:
Obverse: “5” has a broad, curved, pointed, horn type top. It shows recutting to right of its top. Only this variety and the O-101, have such a “5”. There is a peculiar dot to the right of the outer curve of the five. This led Walter Breen to conclude this is an overdate 1835/4. Overton was not convinced of the overdate. Edgar Souders, who wrote BUST HALF FEVER, did extensive studies on this variety, and he is not convinced of the overdate. I agree with Edgar Souders.
Reverse: Left sides of “T” & “I” in line. Right corner of shield extends upward. “A” in “AMERICA” is higher than “M”, and it leans to the left. “5” has a well curved top and it leans to the left. “5” is higher than “0”. Same “5” as on O-104. ”E” & “R” in “AMERICA” are wide spaced. (Same reverse as O-104.)
Join in the Bustie fun!
Updated link to the entire Capped Bust Half Dollar Series
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. To begin this series, I would like to start the first three threads myself, and then open it up for anyone to open threads as the next year start times come up. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
There are 8 obverses and 8 reverses, to make 11 different marriages for 1835, including O-111 R8. For 1835, there are five different “5”s used in “50C”.
Some diagnostics for 1835 O-107 R1:
Obverse: “5” has a broad, curved, pointed, horn type top. It shows recutting to right of its top. Only this variety and the O-101, have such a “5”. There is a peculiar dot to the right of the outer curve of the five. This led Walter Breen to conclude this is an overdate 1835/4. Overton was not convinced of the overdate. Edgar Souders, who wrote BUST HALF FEVER, did extensive studies on this variety, and he is not convinced of the overdate. I agree with Edgar Souders.
Reverse: Left sides of “T” & “I” in line. Right corner of shield extends upward. “A” in “AMERICA” is higher than “M”, and it leans to the left. “5” has a well curved top and it leans to the left. “5” is higher than “0”. Same “5” as on O-104. ”E” & “R” in “AMERICA” are wide spaced. (Same reverse as O-104.)
Join in the Bustie fun!
Updated link to the entire Capped Bust Half Dollar Series I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
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Comments
Here are two 1835 halves from my collection. I forget the Overton numbers, though if someone cares to remind me, then I'll edit my post and pretend I knew all along. Obtained from a local coin shop in my old home town.
The top coin is a semi-prooflike AU-50 example that may have been dipped decades ago, guessing from the toning. The lower coin is another that I grade AU-50, the beauty of which was not captured by my digital camera, unfortunately. In hand, it's dripping with original, pastel-toned patina, though it has a dark swirl of not-so-nice toning on the front. Another coin obtained from Don Frederick.
But wanted to tip my hat to you for taking this project on.
I know it is time consuming. Enjoy!
The first appears to be O106,R1.The 1 in the date leans to the right.
The second is a little easier,the die crack on the obverse makes it O108,R3.The 5 in 50 c. has a
short ,straight top,and the loop is nearly closed. Alright,time for the pro's to let me know if I'm close.
I'm at least having fun with this .
I like what you are doing with this series of threads but have no late dates with which to participate, but will jump in when possible. Why include the CLEs in your thread? They aren't part of the Overton series; they are antedated fantasy pieces made to test half dollar dies in the new steam press, having more in common with 1804 dollars than with real 1833-5 half dollars. Even the BHNC has decertified them.
Question for other participants- what is a more believeable mintage of 1835 dated halves?
<< <i>Mozin,
I like what you are doing with this series of threads but have no late dates with which to participate, but will jump in when possible. Why include the CLEs in your thread? They aren't part of the Overton series; they are antedated fantasy pieces made to test half dollar dies in the new steam press, having more in common with 1804 dollars than with real 1833-5 half dollars. Even the BHNC has decertified them.
Question for other participants- what is a more believeable mintage of 1835 dated halves? >>
Good observation, and good information. The reason I included the 1835 crushed lettered edge O-111 in the thread is simply because I forgot it was there.
Now we only have seven marriages missing.
Slumlord98's question still needs attention. He said "...what is a more believeable mintage of 1835 dated halves?"
Let me also tip my hat off to you Mozin and say that I will contribute when and how I can.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i>Don't have a 35 to contribute either. Could have helped with other 36's, but they would have just been dupes.
Let me also tip my hat off to you Mozin and say that I will contribute when and how I can. >>
Feel free to show off your 1836 CBH duplicates on the 1836 thread. We want as many pictures as we can get to keep members interested in the thread series. Whenever the thread drops too low in the viewing list, that would be a good time to show your coins.
I sure appreciate all the members who have contributed to this series. I am having a great time.
Stuart's "Super AU58" needs attribution and diagnostics. Who is up to the task?
good in the pic,but it appears to possibly be an earlier die state ,because the die crack above her head is very
light.I bought a new mouse with a magnifier option on it,and did not notice the crack until I enlarged the area.
This new mouse is the best.
Some diagnostics for 1835 O-101 R1:
Obverse: The “5” has a fluted knob, a long curved flag, and a thin line joining its tail to the upright. Liberty’s mouth is partially open, and her upper lip is thick and curled.
Reverse: “5” is recut. The upper right serif of “I” in scroll is filled, and the upper portion of the upright of the “B” has a triangular defect. Left side of “T” in line with right side of “I”. (Same reverse as O-102.)
siliconvalleycoins.com
Some diagnostics for 1835 O-104 R3:
Obverse: There is an oval section formed from the forecurl and headband. (Same obverse as O-102 & 103, and unique to this obverse.) The rim has a flat area in the milling opposite the end of the bust, shows little space between dentils.
Reverse: Left sides of “T” & “I” in line. Right corner of shield extends upward. “A” in “AMERICA” is higher than “M”, and it leans to the left. “5” has a well curved top and it leans to the left. “5” is higher than “0”. Same “5” as on O-104. ”E” & “R” in “AMERICA” are wide spaced. (Same reverse as O-107.)
We still need O-102, 103, 105, 109, and 110. We want to see many duplicates of each marriage. This is an ongoing thread, so continue to post for the long term. Travel down to the bank and grab your Busties.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Some diagnostics for 1835 O-105 R1:
Obverse: Star 4 is recut at the outer-lower point. “3” is low, rotated clockwise, and recut showing at upper left.
Reverse: There are diagonal defect ridges between the stripes. Second “T” in “STATES” above “A” and “E” at base. Stand of “E” in scroll is centered under the left side of “D”. “5” has a long thin serif with only a slight curve, same as O-109.
We have not shown these 1835 Overton marriages: 102, 103, 109, 110. Even though your 1835 marriage has already been shown, we want to see your coins. Duplicates are wanted.
<< <i>There must be many more 1835 Capped Bust Half Dollars held by CU members. Where are they?
another taking a respite from the safety of the bank...
I attribute it as O-105
Some diagnostics for 1835 O-106:
Obverse: Upright of “5” is recut. “1” leans to the right. Mouth is open.
Reverse: In the field above the left corner of the shield, there is a tine coming out of the eagle’s neck. Center dot between crossbars 4 & 5. One line from each of the first four stripes extends upward. Right side of “I” under left side of “T”.
Show those Busties!
Welcome to the Lettered Edge Capped Bust Half Dollar series.
You have a nice looking 1835.
<< <i>Mozin, that O.104 is stunning! >>
Thanks. I owned that coin for about 20 years before I submitted it to ANACS for grading in February 1994.
<< <i>stev32k,
Welcome to the Lettered Edge Capped Bust Half Dollar series.
You have a nice looking 1835.
Thanks Mozin, Mine is not in the same league as yours - that's a fantastic coin. Mine is going in a Dansco 7070 album.
I personally think of all the "common" Busties from the 1830's, the 1835's are the real sleeper. It is not that easy to find even a common R1 1835 in a higher grade...
...perhaps even the lower grades. An exercise for those of you who like to spend every night surfing for Busties on eBay: For just one week take a piece of paper with 1830 thru 1836 written down the left side of the paper. On night 1 of your one week experiment start tallying off the coins from the 1830's that appear newly listed on eBay. Keep it up for every night of the entire week. I think you will be surprised how few 1835's there are in comparison to the other years.
The obverse of the O-103 die marriage was struck using Obverse die 2. This was the third and final use of this die. The die was first used on the 1835 O-102 then taken out of service (Assuming the Mint had only one screw press for the Half Dollars at the time---which I think not---different subject, different forum.) so the Mint could strike the 1834 O-121. Upon completition of the 1834 O-121, 1835 Obv. die 2 was put back into service to strike the 1835 O-104. After completing the 1835 O-104 the die was taken out of service so that the Mint could strike the 1834 O-120 followed by the 1834 O-119. Upon completition of the 1834 O-119, 1835 Obv. die 2 was put back into service to strike the O-103---the subject of this Thread's entry. (Whew! This paragraph almost has to be read three times.)
The reverse of the O-103 die marriage was struck using Reverse die B. This was the second and final usage of this die. The die was used immediately prior to strike the 1834 O-119. In the 1834 series this die carries the name of Obverse die S.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage.
(1) On the obverse there is an oval area to the right of the forecurl between the forcurl and the headband. This is unique to the 1835 O-102, O-103 and O-104 die marriages.
(2) On the reverse there are parallel diagonal lines in the shield between the stripes of the shield. The tops these diagonal lines are to the left, the bottoms to the right. They are more visible in the top half of the shield running between stripe 2 and stripe 6. This is unique to this reverse die. (Unfortunately these are barely visible in my photo. Refer to Peterson's "The Ultimate Guide to Attributing..." for a much more professional photo.)
(3) On the reverse the 5 of 50 C. has a loop that is nearly closed.
Photos of the 1835 O-103, R2:
Edgar
P.S. To Slumlord, Coinlieutenant, Mozin and all: Concerning the actual mintage of the 1835's: Published mintages are certainly wrong and extremely exaggerated. Many were more than likely dated 1834 and 1836. It would be absurd to believe only ten die marriages DATED 1835 could create a 5 MILLION PLUS mintage. Every die would have had to strike a half a million halves! We're not talking titanium dies here. My estimates are 4 million pieces or less (think less).
Edgar
Edgar
Edgar
1835's are undervalued as a rule, and the published mintage is most certainly wrong (see my comments earlier in this thread).
Edgar
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
Your coin looks like O-104 R3. It appears to have VF details, but the obverse has damage which would lower it net to Fine.
This die marriage was struck using Obverse die 7 and Reverse die G. This was the only use of these dies.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) The stars are small. Stars 7, 11 and 13 show recutting with extra tiny points.
(2) The bottom of the numerals in the date are almost in a straight line with the 3 open and the loop of the 5 almost closed.
(3) The "pit" under the left wing where it joins the body has some short die lines piercing the field. This is almost like a "hairy armpit" and a key thing to look for if you are trying to attribute this die marriage. This can be seen on my coin without a red arrow or a photo enlargement.
Photos of the 1835 O-109, R2:
The obverse of this DM was struck using Obverse Die 2. This is the first of three uses of this die. The die would be later used to strike the O-104 and the O-103, in that order.
The reverse of this DM was struck using Reverse Die A. This reverse die would be used three times. Before striking the O-102 it was used immediately prior to strike the 1835 O-101. Upon completition of the striking of the 1835 O-102, this reverse die would be mated with the 1834 Obverse Die 18 to strike the scarce 1834 O-121 DM. (In the 1834 series this reverse die is called Rev. Die U.)
Quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) The forecurl and headband curve away from each other leaving a definite oval between.
(2) On the obverse the 5 has a narrow and nearly straight top.
(3) On the reverse the 5 of 50 C. has been recut. This recutting can be seen counterclockwise at the top. The 5 is higher than the 0 and leans to the left.
(4) In PLURIBUS the upper right serif of I is filled and there is a triangular defect in the upper portion of the upright of the B. This can be clearly seen in my photo.
Photos of my 1835 O-102, R3:
Please continue to show your 1835's for presentation and discussion.
In the meantime, here are the 1835's in Overton numerical order on these Dansco pages:
Here is another 1835 O-108
P.S.
Hey Mozin,
I think your series here is the most successful series of threads these boards have ever seen...
This particular coin has an interesting provenance including At water, Colonel Green, Reed Hawn et al. So without futher ado introducing the latest addition to our Americas collection the 1838 O Half Dollar;
I would not mind if you posted that coin on EVERY thread on these boards.
A 38-0 is a treat anywhere, anytime.
Thanks for posting it and sharing this one with us bust collectors.