Opinions please...Will Cooperstown be calling for Gary Sheffield?

fsjeter · October 17, 2006 2:50AM

He will be entering his 20th season in MLB next year. He is sitting on career totals of .297 BA, 2,390 Hits, and 455 HR. He could end up in both the 3,000 hit club (610 hits shy) and the 500 Home Run club (45 HR's shy) before he is finished. Granted, he's not the most popular player but I still think he has a great chance. I've been looking at GU memorabilia (bats mostly) and the prices are still very reasonable. I figure now might be a good time to start looking before the prices start rising. Any thoughts? Would he need 3,000 and 500 to get in or would 500 be enough? Thanks!

Scott

halosfan · October 17, 2006 2:55AM

I would be shocked if he ever gets even close to getting in

Estil · October 17, 2006 3:14AM

Well, 3000 hits is an automatic first ballot bid, but... Does he even have enough TIME to get to 3000 hits? I mean, I'm sure Mr. Sheffield isn't getting any younger you know.

mikeschmidt · October 17, 2006 3:19AM

No

shagrotn77 · October 17, 2006 3:19AM

I agree. Sheffield does not have enough time/game left in him to reach 3,000 hits. He's very likely to hit 500 homers, but that accomplishment isn't what it once was - an automatic ticket to Cooperstown. I say no on the Hall. If he does get in, it will be WAY down the road. We're talking 15 years or so.

fsjeter · October 17, 2006 3:22AM

<< Well, 3000 hits is an automatic first ballot bid, but... Does he even have enough TIME to get to 3000 hits? I mean, I'm sure Mr. Sheffield isn't getting any younger you know. >>

If he averages 152 hits over the next 4 years, he would reach 3,000. Except for injury years, his numbers have been pretty consistent. He hit over 30 HR a year for for three years straight (2003, 2004, & 2005) and he hasn't had under 160 hits for a season except 2002 (151 hits) and last year with the injury. I think his attitude and health will be big in his remaining years. If he keeps pissing people off, he won't have anywhere to play. I would agree with the above if it wasn't for Palmiero. He is in both clubs and may not get in the HOF.

Scott

larryallen73 · October 17, 2006 4:15AM

Well, 3000 hits is an automatic first ballot bid

I think you mean it USED to be automatic. Fact is Palmeiro ruined the automatic entry for 3,000 hits or 500 HR's.

Sheffield has put up very consistent numbers but he's just not spectacular to me. Plus his big years were during the time when anybody, even Brady Anderson, could hit 50 hr's. Lastly, we don't know if Sheffield has been on the juice or not but I think playing in the Palmiero era will taint him.

I thus say NO CHANCE!

Also, stocking up on his cards reminds me of stocking up on Palmeiro cards a few years ago. I can't give them away now. Stocking up on ANY rookie cards of that era is of questionable intelligence to me due to incredible supply of cards and steriod concerns for all players with impressive numbers.

Good question though!

5STAT · October 17, 2006 4:24AM

Well, 3000 hits is an automatic first ballot bid

Tell Pete Rose that.....lol

He and Palmiero can go do home shopping autograph shows...
"Sorry I bet on Baseball "and "Sorry I popped roids" balls will be all the rage (ummm not roid rage I hope)....

sagard · October 17, 2006 4:27AM

<< Lastly, we don't know if Sheffield has been on the juice or not but I think playing in the Palmiero era will taint him.
>>

Huh? He admitted unknowingly taking steriods to help him recover from surgery. I'd say we know.

rbdjr1 · October 17, 2006 4:29AM

Sheff?

I'd vote yes!

Two or three more years and he'll have simular or "better" numbers, like the hall of famers:

Willie Stargell, Billy Williams, Eddie Matthews

rd

CLICK HERE AND LISTEN!! The Rolling Stones - Sympathy for the Devil

P.S. I think it will not be: "if Sheff gets in, but when?"

MorrellMan · October 17, 2006 4:48AM

I would conditionally agree with the minority here; he has a few more years left in him and I think he needs to make those strong years. He needs a boost to be a shoo-in, he's capable of that boost, it's just a question if he stays healthy enough to get it.

phreakydancin · October 17, 2006 5:02AM

- Never won an MVP award
- Never led the majors in any major statistical category
- Never hit 50 home runs in a season in the long-ball era
- Career Avg. under .300
- Well under 3000 career hits and I would be surprised if he gets there (currently at 2390)
- Black Ink test: 4 (Avg HOF'er = 27)
- Grey Ink test: 118 (Avg HOF'er = 144

Sorry, doesn't sound like he's Hall-bound to me.

Edit: he did win the NL batting title in 1992, so make that 1 major statistical category

gregmo32 · October 17, 2006 5:04AM

He will not get in. The numbers might be enough if he, as well as the entire era he played in, were not tainted. If he had gotten 2700 hits and 490 HR's in the 70's he would get in, but not now. Let's not forget, Andre Dawson and Jim Rice are still not in, and there are going to be more and more players with high HR totals who don't make it. I think at one time Darrell Evans and Dave Kingman were the only players with 400 plus who were not in, and that was not that long ago! But times have changed and Sheff will not get in...

Brian48 · October 17, 2006 5:12AM

No.

baseballfanatic · October 17, 2006 5:15AM

I agree. If Rice and Dawson arent in, no way should Sheffield even get second look......

Estil · October 17, 2006 5:18AM

<< Well, 3000 hits is an automatic first ballot bid

I think you mean it USED to be automatic. Fact is Palmeiro ruined the automatic entry for 3,000 hits or 500 HR's. >>

No no no, that's no "fact" at all. He's still quite a few years away from getting on the ballot and for all we know, that whole steroid stuff will be way old news by then.

As for the guy who said, "tell Pete Rose that"; no, that doesn't count. He's not eligible for the HOF, and probably never will be as long as Mr. Selig is the commish.

Anway, back to our regularly scheduled program, call me when and if Mr. Sheffield has his 3000 hits; otherwise he's just another Vida Pinson. Ditto for Mr. Canseco; he probably would go in the HOF if he had reached 500 HR's; anything less (even 499) and the writers won't give him a second thought. Hope he's having fun in the low level minors, though.

BTW, I love these "Should Joe Smith go in the HOF or not?" debates; keep them coming

onefasttalon · October 17, 2006 5:18AM

I really like Sheff myself... but HOF? ... well, I guess some of us can hope one day, but reality soon has to set in.
Do you think it hurts him that he's played for every team in the majors except San Diego? ... err, I mean Florida? ... crap, I mean Los Angeles?... uhh, or was it...??? ...

fsjeter · October 17, 2006 5:32AM

<< Also, stocking up on his cards reminds me of stocking up on Palmeiro cards a few years ago. I can't give them away now. Stocking up on ANY rookie cards of that era is of questionable intelligence to me due to incredible supply of cards and steriod concerns for all players with impressive numbers.

Good question though! >>

I agree. Due to the ridiculous proliferation, stocking up on late 80's RC's is silly. Just too much inventory. I still wouldn't mind picking up a GU bat of a HOF'er for a couple hundred dollars.

<< Do you think it hurts him that he's played for every team in the majors except San Diego? ... err, I mean Florida? ... crap, I mean Los Angeles?... uhh, or was it...??? ... >>

No. I don't think it will hurt him anymore than it is (or isn't) going to hurt Rickey Henderson (A's, Yankees, Padres, Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels, Mets, Blue Jays) who's played for more teams than Sheffield (Brewers, Padres, Marlins, Dodgers, Braves, & Yankees).

Scott

onlyanumber · October 17, 2006 6:09AM

Palmeiro has 3000 hits and won't get in. Sheffield might not even make 2700 hits and I doubt he'll make it to the Hall. Even Biggio at 3000 (70 short I think) might not make it.

markj111 · October 17, 2006 6:33AM

Biggio? He is an easy HOFer.

Griffins · October 17, 2006 6:41AM

No way on Sheffield, definitely yes on Biggio.

Axtell · October 17, 2006 7:14AM

No way sheff gets in.

Subpar numbers for a hall of famer, throw in the steroid use, and you have a guy who cheated AND wasn't even good enough to dominate.

fsjeter · October 17, 2006 7:28AM

<< - Never won an MVP award
- Never led the majors in any major statistical category
- Never hit 50 home runs in a season in the long-ball era
- Career Avg. under .300
- Well under 3000 career hits and I would be surprised if he gets there (currently at 2390)
- Black Ink test: 4 (Avg HOF'er = 27)
- Grey Ink test: 118 (Avg HOF'er = 144

Sorry, doesn't sound like he's Hall-bound to me.

Edit: he did win the NL batting title in 1992, so make that 1 major statistical category >>

HOF Standards: Batting - 57.7 (37) (Average HOFer = 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 132.0 (98) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Baseball-reference.com goes on to explain that the HOF Monitor rating is a rough scale but a rating above 130 is a virtual cinch.

Scott

ToppsCo1lector · October 17, 2006 7:31AM

<< 

Baseball-reference.com >>

superb website.

lava · October 17, 2006 7:48AM

Victor Conte gets in before Shef. Shef is BALCO. No way does he get in. He goes down with the others. You wouldn't want it any other way, would you?

mercurynut · October 17, 2006 8:27AM

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO EVER!NOT

DeutscherGeist · October 17, 2006 9:48AM

Thank you fsjeter for the stats on Sheffield. That is what I wanted to show, but you beat me to it.

Those stats are very telling. All players are evaluated the same way using Bill James number crunching. Sheffield is in the top 100 as far as HOF Monitor goes compared to all players of all time.

He passes the Bill James test, but so does Mattingly, so not everyone is buying this statistical argument.

I wonder how he ranks with OPS+ and batter runs. Those two tests should also be considered.

So far, with the facts presented, and I have followed his entire career, I think he has a very good chance to be considered for the HOF. Being on all those teams will negatively affect him just because he did not stay long enough in one place to build a loyal fan base. However, he can put up similar numbers as he had for a few more years, then I think his many teams can be overlooked.

As far as the whole steroid deal, I wish Megatron were here to help explain. Palmeiro was punished because there was evidence, Sheffield was tested over and over and nothing.... Soon as the steroid scandal broke news, Bonds mysteriously sat out the year and other players got smaller, but Sheffield kept playing and putting up similar numbers year in and year out.

MantleMarisFordBerra · October 17, 2006 10:38AM

I know a lot of guys get wrapped up in stats, and i do too to an extent, but when we're talking Hall Of Fame, what really is the test for me is weather or not a guy was one of the best of his era. Sheff was not. He did have several very good years, but so did a lot of other guys not in the Hall. And has many have already pointed out, 500 HRs has lost a good bit of its luster thanks to the steroid crew (which includes Sheff)

I also believe his playing for 1237634234623 teams hurts his chances. I think a player who stays with one team gets more indentity then a player who moves around, and that identity helps how the writers percieve him. Take Puckett- some complain he should not be in the Hall(I believe he should) but no one can deny his being the face of a team for over a decade made him more visable. Biggio, another who is kinda "on the fence' (I believe he should be in, one of the best most consistant 2nd baseman of his era) but if Biggio had played for 4 or 5 teams, he wouldn't have such an identity and when a guy is on the fence like Biggio(or Sheff) I think this makes a difference.

One more time for impact: the test for me is wether or not a guy was one of the best of his era. Sheff was not.

Downtown1974 · October 17, 2006 10:38AM

The way Sheffield swings that bat, it amazes me that he has not thrown his back out permanently. Such a violent swing. That must tweak his back when he does not make contact with the ball. As for the HOF, I dont think so.

80sJunkie · October 17, 2006 11:24AM

He Better get in I'm sittin on over 2,000 of his rookie cards

bri2327 · October 17, 2006 11:30AM

Here is how Sheffield will get to Cooperstown....

When the Yankees inform him they no longer need or want his services he can leave the stadium, travel across the George Washington bridge, continue on to the Garden state parkway north for about 15 miles till it merges into I-87 north which he will stay on for another 125 miles. At that point I-87 North becomes I-90 West. He will procede on that for 10 miles, taking exit #25A onto I-88 West. After another 50 or so miles he can then take exit #17, turn right onto RT-28, and continue another 17 miles.

From this point he is almost there, having only to make a few simple turns into the heart of town where he can visit the hall anytime between 9am and 5pm this time of year, 9am-9pm during summer hours. The HOF is closed Thanksgiving day, Christmas day, and New Years day, so he will want to make a note of that, lest he make the journey one of those days for naught.

5STAT · October 17, 2006 11:41AM

and THAT from a Yankee fan......

too funny..I laughed....but true

XanaduNow · October 17, 2006 11:57AM

Don't the writers vote on the HOF ballot?

Yeah, exactly.

Arthur

riccaboni · October 17, 2006 11:58AM

Recent rumors in the Philadelphia Inquierer have him going to the Phils in the off-season. I'm not looking forward to that.

But to the question, no, the steroid thing has tainted him. Sosa will not get in right away, but will get in. I doubt the window stays open long enough for Shef to sneak in.

And to whomever said Biggio wasn't a lock for the Hall, I disagree. He's more of a lock than practically anybody in the game today outside of Maddux, Griffey, and, depending how the steroid issue plays on him, Clemens. I think he gets in if he retires after this year, 3000 hits or not.

-Ian

XanaduNow · October 17, 2006 12:02PM

<< Recent rumors in the Philadelphia Inquierer have him going to the Phils in the off-season. I'm not looking forward to that.

But to the question, no, the steroid thing has tainted him. Sosa will not get in right away, but will get in. I doubt the window stays open long enough for Shef to sneak in.

And to whomever said Biggio wasn't a lock for the Hall, I disagree. He's more of a lock than practically anybody in the game today outside of Maddux, Griffey, and, depending how the steroid issue plays on him, Clemens. I think he gets in if he retires after this year, 3000 hits or not.

-Ian >>

riccaboni,

I agree with one exception. If the National media stormed the Astros clubhouse and caught Rocket with seven needles in his ass, one in each forearm vein, covered in cream while downing a bottle of pills laced with Andro-flavored Red Bull the guy would get into the Hall. JMO

Arthur

riccaboni · October 17, 2006 12:07PM

<< 

<< Recent rumors in the Philadelphia Inquierer have him going to the Phils in the off-season. I'm not looking forward to that.

But to the question, no, the steroid thing has tainted him. Sosa will not get in right away, but will get in. I doubt the window stays open long enough for Shef to sneak in.

And to whomever said Biggio wasn't a lock for the Hall, I disagree. He's more of a lock than practically anybody in the game today outside of Maddux, Griffey, and, depending how the steroid issue plays on him, Clemens. I think he gets in if he retires after this year, 3000 hits or not.

-Ian >>

riccaboni,

I agree with one exception. If the National media stormed the Astros clubhouse and caught Rocket with seven needles in his ass, one in each forearm vein, covered in cream while downing a bottle of pills laced with Andro-flavored Red Bull the guy would get into the Hall. JMO

Arthur >>

Arthur,

As I look back on my post, I do agree. The Grimsley comments seemed to have been dismissed and there is seemingly no connection anyways. However, I do now agree with you about the Clemens thing; the thing with Clemens, as with Bonds, is that they both were Hall of Famers well before any alligations or predating of steroid use took place. I would definately call Clemens more than a lock for the Hall the more I think about it.

-Ian

grote15 · October 17, 2006 12:08PM

No. He won't sniff 3,000 hits. He's breaking down already. And his reputation will cost him votes among the writers, unfairly or not. He's been a solid player, but I just don't think HOF when I think of Sheffield.

fsjeter · October 18, 2006 12:51AM

<< I also believe his playing for 1237634234623 teams hurts his chances. I think a player who stays with one team gets more indentity then a player who moves around, and that identity helps how the writers percieve him. Take Puckett- some complain he should not be in the Hall(I believe he should) but no one can deny his being the face of a team for over a decade made him more visable. Biggio, another who is kinda "on the fence' (I believe he should be in, one of the best most consistant 2nd baseman of his era) but if Biggio had played for 4 or 5 teams, he wouldn't have such an identity and when a guy is on the fence like Biggio(or Sheff) I think this makes a difference.

One more time for impact: the test for me is wether or not a guy was one of the best of his era. Sheff was not. >>

I can't think of a single instance where playing for several teams has hurt a persons chances. Eckersley and Winfield both played for 6 different teams, Rogers Hornsby played for 5, and Jimmie Foxx played for 4 during their respective careers and they are all in. There are quite a few future HOF candidates that have played for several teams during their careers as well: Rickey Henderson (5), Randy Johnson (5), Roger Clemens (4), Ivan Rodriguez (3), Alex Rodriguez (3). If the numbers are there, it shouldn't matter how many teams a player has played for IMO.

To the question of whether I would want it any other way, not really, but then again, I don't get a say in the matter. The writers get the vote. In the end, the only things I think will hurt his chances (assuming the numbers will be there) are the steroid situation and his sometime sour relationship with the media.

Scott

MooseDog · October 18, 2006 1:18AM

When you talk about "stocking up" on Sheffield cards you imply that you see his cards as undervalued for investment purposes. But one has to remember that popularity is a big piece of investment value when talking about cards.

I did a show last weekend and put two mint 1989 UD Sheffield rookies in my $1.00 box.

No takers all weekend and there must have been at least 50 people rifling through that box.

Skinpinch · October 18, 2006 1:42AM

As Moosedog says, player ability does not translate to collectible ability.

Do not waste your money investing in him, nobody likes him, his numbers are artificially inflated due to the era he played in(not to mention the juicing he also did, and he isn't going to reach 3,000 hits either.

Put your money into Jeter's best cards, as when he approaches Rose's record, you will make some money. I put Jeter as having a better shot at Rose's record, than Arod at Aaron's.

Writer11 · October 18, 2006 2:00AM

<< No way sheff gets in.

Subpar numbers for a hall of famer, throw in the steroid use, and you have a guy who cheated AND wasn't even good enough to dominate. >>

I agree with Axtell on this one.

Estil · October 21, 2006 5:21AM

<< I know a lot of guys get wrapped up in stats, and i do too to an extent, but when we're talking Hall Of Fame, what really is the test for me is weather or not a guy was one of the best of his era. >>

I slightly disagree. I've always been a firm believer that your overall career stats should always, always be first and foremost in terms of HOF consideration. That's why I firmly believe Bert Byleven is by far the most deserving among eligible players, even if he never had that name recognition. Things like championships, MVP/Cy Youngs, and so on should be secondary and should only be used to compliment his existing career stats, and should NOT be used as an excuse for non-inclusion (for example, saying a player doesn't belong because he's never won a championship or won an MVP or whatnot, which in almost all cases was not his fault). I also can't stand it when a 25+ year workhorse is having his longetity used negatively in terms of HOF consideration, which I believe should be a plus, not a minus if you're still able to compete at the major league level in your mid-40s or beyond. Now you know why Julio Franco has become such a fan favorite, even though his overall stats just don't come close to HOF consideration.

And again, until and unless Mr. Sheffield gets his 3,000 hits, he's just another Vida Pinson. Just like Mr. Canseco; he needed those 500 HRs to have any shot at the HOF; as it stands now, he's just another Dave Kingman.

gonzer · October 21, 2006 7:47AM

No way!

DirtyHarry · October 21, 2006 9:03AM

No, unless he posts up five more spectacular years.

DeutscherGeist · October 21, 2006 5:56PM

MooseDog,

If I went through your box and spotted 2 X 1989 Upper Deck Sheffields in MINT condition for $1 each, I would have bought them outright.

I enjoy going through those dollar boxes or even quarter boxes, but the reason why I don't always choose a lot of cards is because they really are not in MINT condition. A 60-40 centering is never an issue, but I always find one corner slightly soft or an edge chipped. A NRMINT to MINT 1989 Upper Deck slightly frayed is worthless to me. It really has to be MINT, otherwise, no point in getting it since so many were printed. I have some, but I always have room for more if and only if they are really MINT.

Sheffield is no doubt a great player, but his collectibility is not at the same level. Its too bad but I understand what the people's perception of him is. If Jim Abbott were as successful as Sheffield, we would be seeing a frenzy for that 1988 Topps Traded card and the 1989 Upper Deck for sure.

Opinions please...Will Cooperstown be calling for Gary Sheffield?

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