1982 Lincoln cent missing copper layer error?

AwlKindsOStuff

Anybody ever seen or heard of a 1982 penny that was just zinc, no copper? If so can you fill me in on what something like that would be worth, B.U. ?

WoodenJefferson

Not that I'm aware of, there is the 1974 certified aluminum cent.

cladking

There have been some uncoated zinc cents almost all along and they were
much more common in the early years. Genuine specimens bring a premium,
but beware of alterred coins. The copper plating can be removed.

AwlKindsOStuff

Here's a not to good photo, very tough to photograph. It is mint B.U. with solid details. It is not acid washed or anything like that. It was recently found in a mint bank roll of 82's. I do not know why there's spotting on it, maybe something used at the mint that soaked into the raw zinc. It has just a touch of wear from rubbing against another penny in the roll I expect, on the top corners of the house, that shine.

It's not a coin that lost the copper, it was minted as it is.. Very sharp lettering with full steps.

WoodenJefferson

I'm not making fun or light of your find, but I've found with my metal detector and dug up cents that look like that in the sand volley ball court at the Sonic fast food joint. I may have turned it in and the "Coin Star" machine ppl rolled it..ya never know.

I had the rotating welcome sign here for this relatively new member....but alas by the end of this thread it had to taken down and stored in the shed of knowledge.

AwlKindsOStuff

LOL, I seriously doubt you found this in the sand.. I can not explain why there's spotting, however, this guy is has a full mint luster, even though it is not shiny.. And seriously did come from a mint B.U. roll of 82's. I can imagine all the possibilites though LOL.

AwlKindsOStuff

Here's a couple more shots, my cummy out dated cameras color is off but I turned the light to see better detail.




Youcan copy the photos BTW and blow them up to see the details, lincolns ear is perfect and the steps are full.

Pentimento

<< <i>You folks are quite the pack, ha, ha. As a theatre major and worked in the arts and or movie industry, for several years, one of the first things yaw got to understand is the need for conflict, to be entertained. Can’t remember was it Aristotle or? Who created some of the first guidelines for structural story telling. Introduce the story, travel along for a bit and then start some kind of conflict, run it till near close and bingo, people are sitting on the edge of their computer, waiting for the next play. --AwlKindsOStuff-- >>



AwlKindsOStuff--I had to quote you on this one. I am sitting on the edge of my computer waiting for you to resolve this anecdote! Please tell us more about this coin!

StrikeOutXXX

That's different. It almost looks cast/counterfeit - but who would fake an '82 cent? Can you take a picture of it next to a normal looking cent for comparison. The next thing someone is probably going to ask you for is weight in grams if possible.


I too have dug cents that look like the 1st set of pictures, but the 2nd pictures show more detail than I usually see - so I'm stumped at the moment.

AwlKindsOStuff

Here's the color comparison, it's the real deal. As i said in the beginning of this, this is a B.U. mint coin, all zinc.



I do not have a scale to weigh this coin.

I am not a member of the coin grading companies but am trying to assess value to the extent of its worthiness to have it slabbed. This coin has never been touched by anything except gloves since it was found in the roll.

flaminio

We can debate this coin all we want on the boards, but the reality of the day is that no one believes anything unless it's blessed by one of the major slabbers (PCGS or NGC). So my advice would be to send it to one of those for certification, and then post it in its encased glory.

If it is indeed a Zincoln that didn't get its copper plating (and being 1982, the first year of the Zincolns, I would suspect that the process was not completely perfected yet), it's probably worth a few hundred dollars (WAG). But slab it first...

Pentimento

Concentrated Nitric acid will bite copper like crazy. Unlike dilute nitric, it will create an oxidation layer as soon as it touches the zinc shielding the metal from further reaction.

Cu + 2 HNO3 + 2 H^+ --> Cu^2+ + 2 NO2 + 2 H2O

Could have been done with Dutch Mordant too.

AwlKindsOStuff

Ah Zincoln.. O.K. I am learning somthing, Zincoln. So can you tell me what a certified Zincoln would be worth?

AwlKindsOStuff

Look, I did not ask anybody whether they thought my coin is fake or not. I mean I am not asking to sell this, just want to know what a coin like this providing it is real would be worth. If it's just worth a couple hundred bucks, it seems hardly worth spending 40-70 getting it slabbed. However, if it's worth reasonably more, then I'll get it slabbed.. This is all I want to know.

Not interested in how to make a fake Thanks.. I can not find anything about a coin like this on the net, have no coin dealers in my area, 60 miles away, and was hoping you people could help, that's all..

StrikeOutXXX

Flamino is right - we're all just guessing at this point. I suggest you edit your title to something like: "1982 Lincoln cent missing copper layer error?" and the error bat-signal might reach Fred Weinberg, who will undoubtedly have some words of wisdom for you.

Do you have a picture of this "Mint bank roll" by chance?

flaminio

<< <i>If it's just worth a couple hundred bucks, it seems hardly worth spending 40-70 getting it slabbed. However, if it's worth reasonably more, then I'll get it slabbed.. This is all I want to know. >>

Assuming the coin is genuine, the bad news is that you didn't just win the lotto.

The good news is that it's still a nice find, and worth a few hundred dollars. However, only if slabbed. Raw, you might get a buck or two. You can spend $40 to make $200, or you can not spend $40 and get nothing.

AwlKindsOStuff

Thanks Guys, Topic edit is in and, I was not hoping to win the Lotto but did expect it would be worth a bit more. If only 200 that's fine as, actually that was my lowest estimated value. . I'll have to look into getting it slabbed, or something. .

BTW, if it was fake and I was perpetrating something like this, just showing a B.U. 1982 roll would prove absolutely nothing. Moreover, who can prove this roll, were I to show one, is the actual roll it came from. It proves nothing. I figured I'd have to get it slabbed from the start..

The best evidence in this coin is its B.U. details.. Check out my photos close, i do not know anything about making a fake or washing one with acid, however I'd expect an acid wash will cause some surface damage that could be seen a lot easier than what's in my crummy photographs. The spotting, is some type of oil, it does not take a scientist to figure that out, acid wash aint gonna leave no oil..

For all i know if it was plated when struck, maybe the plate is in the die. Otherwise, I can not imagine how a coin like this was created at the mint. I looked online at the mint and the details about makeing these, or current ones, I can not imagine, given the pre-plated sheets, this could happen.. But here it is and as another person said, they are called Zincolns. Funny name.. But seems fitting, and obviously it is not the only one. ..

Thenewguy

If it is real then you need to get it into some protection(an airtite) soon. Zinc is a sacrificial metal and without it's copper plating and out of the protection of the coin roll it was in it will start degrading.

FredWeinberg

Hello on a Sunday afternoon.

I'm sorry to say that based on the scans, the coin
is de-plated, and not a mint error.

As mentioned before, if it's dull and grey, and especially
"powdery" looking, exactly like this 1982 piece, it's had
the copper plating chemically removed.

Save yourself Submission fees to any TPG Service; it will
come back in a body bag.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, as they say......

Fred

Byers

Fred's right. It's been altered after it left the Mint.

ellewood

You gotta love the power of these boards. This place oozes with knowledge and experts.

It's amazing how this story goes from a hopeful wonderful discovery....to just another alterted coin.

Edited to add: How does ONE "de-plate" a coin anyway? Has someone posted on this before. My search came up empty????

LALASD4

I have to agree with Fred and Mike B., it is still worth a cent.

cladking

Some acids are more effective on copper than zinc.

They can also be deplated by running a current through them in water.

Real zinc cents actually have a little luster but these should be certified in most cases. Values are not extremely high so far as I know.

LincolnsRule

I've seen some in slabs sell for like $100. I found some in some BU rolls and sent them to Anacs. They came back "unable to determine authenticity". So what do we pay them for?

AwlKindsOStuff

Well there's the rub, eh? where are the 'experts'? I find all these people volunteering their expertise yet hardly one or two actually has the knowledge or experience about what I asked.

"it's acid washed" It's deplated" It's fake" this, that and every thing except but few people who could simply answer the question I asked which began this topic.

"Anybody ever seen or heard of a 1982 penny that was just zinc, no copper? If so can you fill me in on what something like that would be worth, B.U. ? "

Simple question, seems I really have not received a solid answer too. Save, "100, 200, and 1 cent."


Now for you naysayers, get a life or a TV there's more excitement made by professional actors then what you can find sitting behind a computer and pretending you are qualified to be a judge, expert, etc..

For all of you, I tightened up my camera, Jeez I never asked for an opinion, but instead I get condemnations. Chucklers. Hecklers,

Well, lets hear, or see you out-type this.

Two photos. First, the date.

What's important is the 2. Behind this two is a perfectly smooth reflecting metal surface. NO scratches behind it, it is a stamped flat, smooth, shiny surface. I can not get a closer photo to prove to the doubting Thomas’s, but it is as it is.. Smooth, flat, shining surface, ghosting the 2.



Now HOW could this be there if it was acid washed?? NOT, because it is absolutely impossible to acid wash a surface and leave any area that was not etched. 1 billion to nothing odds. Also, although a bit blurry, copper glittering on the edge, and sporadically within the zinc.

second photo


Here you can see clean unaltered, non-discolored, non etched copper on the edge rim . Look close enough and it's within the zinc too. Sparkly, shiny, mint or raw copper.
there is no surface dust on this coin, it is not powdery, it is rough and raw. All possibilities about this coin having been altered suggested in this topic are totally disproved with these two photos. It has not been acid washed, nor electronically deplated, O.K.? Of course there are those who will chime in and run their fingers off with their self proclaimed opinions, please, those of you who fit in that pocket, be quite for a while..



The only thing that makes any sense in the least is exactly what I said as a possibility. Perhaps the copper came off in the die. Both sides at the same time, seems impossible but, it is the only other probable way the copper surface could have been removed. unless there just plain was no copper plating when it was stamped. Moreover, for the rough surface, the only possibility seems to be this. Ripped off within the die. Or, the plating was ripped off before it was stamped?

Maybe the plating was to thin, I don’t know, but do know this aint no fake-er-ru.

Duuh no wonder LincolnsRule, you ask this question, “what do you pay experts for?” The solution to that is, first you find an expert.

66RB

I don't know about you awlkinds.....but when Fred Weinberg offers an opinion on an error coin...
I tend to shut up and listen.

He is not an 'armchair expert'

flaminio

<< <i>The solution to that is, first you find an expert. >>

FredWeinberg (who posted above) is about as big as an expert as you're going to find. You can take his words to the bank.

If you're looking for an exact price as to what it's worth, walk on. There's no such price guide for these things (assuming it's a genuine no-copper-plating zinc cent).

And what part of "GET IT CERTIFIED" do you not understand? You can scream all you want on this board, but if you come back and show off the coin in an NGC holder, people will ooh and aah and start offering you bids. But if it's just a raw coin, you're going to get catcalls. That's the way numismatics is these days -- you don't have to like it, but you do have to accept it.

FredWeinberg

I'm sorry I didn't answer your first question.

Yes, I have seen 1982 Cents struck on zinc planchets, unplated.

LALASD4

Again, it is worth one cent.

seanq

What the hey, I'll take the bait.

Yes, genuine unplated 1982 cents do exist. Because they are difficult to authenticate even in the hand (nevermind from a photo) they are not avidly collected and do not command significant premiums. A genuine unplated 1982 large date cent would probably fetch in the ballpark of $100-150.

Now, if your only intention was to get your first two questions answered, you can stop reading here. In my opinion, your coin in particular does not look like a genuine unplated cent. A genuine unplated cent should have some fine particles of copper struck into the surfaces, transferred from the faces of dies which had been striking copper plated planchets. It should also weigh slightly less than a normal zinc cent, on the order of 2.4 grams. Much more than that and it has been replated (ie, zinc on top of copper on top of zinc), much less than that and the copper was probably removed chemically.

Your pictures are nice, but your comments about them do not make sense from a metallurgical standpoint nor from what I know about the minting process. I've only been collecting errors for about 15 years, where Fred Weinberg and Mike Byers have been at it for 30-plus (and between them have handled just about every major error coin you can imagine), so I understand you probably won't consider my opinion "expert" enough either. However, I do suggest that you not dismiss their expertise just because you do not agree with their opinions.


Sean Reynolds

WoodenJefferson

AwlKindsOStuff....I strongly suggest you need to read a few chapters out of this referenced material, then come back to forum.

*Fred Wienberg wrote the book on error coins...he said the surface appeared ~powdery looking~ a description used for surface condition to identify a possible chemical reaction. You disclaimed his opinion by stating that there was no actual powder on the surface, Fred never said it was powder, you are jumping to conclusions here.

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AwlKindsOStuff

Thanks seanq, Sean Reynolds I cannot believe how difficult it is to get decent responses around here. Yours not only deals with my original question but goes into the difficulties this topic is exposing. Thanks for taking the time, (the bait is to) help send this topic it in a positive direction.

There is one point I'd like to respond to which you've made: "A genuine unplated cent should have some fine particles of copper struck into the surfaces, transferred from the faces of dies which had been striking copper plated planchets."

Is that not clear enough in my photo, or writing about them?

I am still thinking that, if it was stamped it ought to shine, yet this does not.. However one of your points are shown in my photo, which seems incomplete.

Will the types of coins you are describing shine or not?

As to the weight of it, I do not have the equipment, so i cannot go there for now. However, I am reminded over 25 years ago, about talk concerning processing the 43 Lincoln, to make them appear to be in a higher mint state, your weight point, I believe answers another question I’ve been wondering for all those years. I believe it was washing one in mercury or something like this. I guess from this point you’ve made that’s the sure fire way to know. If a 43 has been messed with. Although why anybody would have messed with them 25 years ago defies my imagination.. A cheap trick..

However, I feel the need to reiterate my points. Because this topic has migrated to more than my original inquirers.

If an acid or metal remover of any type was used on this coin, two things would have occurred. One, a specially designed washing agent would completely remove all of the target material, (copper) and two; tone the copper and or etch it so badly it would not shine well. , or both. The copper which is embedded into this coin is not toned, rather it is 'collector' Red, and there's plenty of it on the rim and sporadically embedded threw out the entire coin. Reiterating, the copper is 'embedded' within the zinc.. It is not just embedded, it is glittering as shown in my photos.. keep in mind while viewing, Glittering effect is very difficult to capture, because the surfaces in this case, copper, are reflecting in several different directions. The photographic result without exaggeration will never show more than 25 percent shining out of the gray areas of this coin.
If you were to look close in the other areas besides the rim in my photographs, you’ll see the red coper glittering. Multiply that by at least 4 for every spot visible and you’ll begin to get a glimpse of the amount throughout the coin.

I press upon the experts in the topic.. No disrespect meant, I am certainly no equal to the error collector/dealers, like your self, Mike Myers, nor Fred Weinberg. To take note of my points, the areas I am illustrating regarding this coin, Any expert of worth should know one basic rule, there is always something to learn.. And when in doubt pay attention to the points that differ from the norm..

Herein, the normal fake like this, simply, in layman’s terms, aint gonna have the copper nor copper shine and copper color this coins got..

Leiana

Did you get it out of an original roll of 1982 cents?

-Amanda

WoodenJefferson

Mike Myers

[L=][/L] Mike Byers

flaminio

OK, AwlKindsOStuff, now you're just trolling. You got the answers to your questions. Clearly, you didn't like the answers. That's your problem, not ours.

Your reticence to get the coin certified leads me to think that you're trying to dump it off on somebody. If you truly thought you had something of value, you wouldn't hesitate to get the coin certified.

AwlKindsOStuff

Not trying to sell this coin!!!

I am defending the lady's honor who took this out of a B.U. Roll. Otherwise, if i take you people’s words I’ll be calling her a flat out bold face liar. I do not believe she is, and feel she has no reason to,. here's more copper for you.. as I mentioned before the details disappear when you shoot this flat, this is Lincolns ear lobe.

Copper, copper, copper, embedded everywhere.

80sJunkie

WoodenJefferson

In your own words: I can not imagine how a coin like this was created at the mint.

Now your saying the 1982 cent came from somone else...honor/liar... the copper you see is remants of what's left of the original copper plate (nooks and crannys of the zinc...zinc is very pours, a good place for copper to bond to molecularly, when the copper is removed via a vehicle, time is of the essence, remove it to soon, too much copper, to long, no copper, just right, copper bearing zinc) "Goldie Locks and the Three Zincs" ...give it up already!

cladking

I'd have told you about the same thing in my first post but I knew there would
be some real experts along to give you a better opinion. They did.

There were a lot of the '83-P unplated zincs if memory serves and these were
bringing a couple hundred in that pre-slab era. A problem quickly developed
with fakes appearing and the price dropped. My understanding is that they are
difficult to authenticate even when real.

There are a few collectors for these so there are probably some dates that will
bring a substantial premium but I'm no expert here either.

AwlKindsOStuff

If you are going to quote me, try including the entire statement. UNLESS IT CAME OFF IN THE DIE, thanks but butt out..

seanq

<< <i>Not trying to sell this coin!!!

I am defending the lady's honor who took this out of a B.U. Roll. Otherwise, if i take you people’s words I’ll be calling her a flat out bold face liar. I do not believe she is, and feel she has no reason to,. here's more copper for you.. as I mentioned before the details disappear when you shoot this flat, this is Lincolns ear lobe.

Copper, copper, copper, embedded everywhere. >>



Okay, I see in that picture what you were trying to show earlier. A couple more questions - are the sufraces of the coin porous as they appear in the photo or are they smooth, say at least as smooth as other plated cents that came from the same roll? Also, the spots on the reverse, are they in or on the coin's surface?

Also, I don't think anyone is saying you altered the coin yourself, just that it could have been altered after being struck. All I'm trying to do is help figure out what you have.


Sean Reynolds

AwlKindsOStuff

Thanks Tempus fugit. This is certainly understandable, and that is what I feel is the very problem here, knowing what the differences would be in the variables between faked coins and real ones. There seems to be very, very little knowledge in this area. Rather gray, ha ha. I am trying to take a closer view.


I also know as a expert collector in another realm that many super experts will overlook certain details regarding lower priced inferior collectables. Generally the major knowledge revolves around the exclusively high dollar items. Nice but leaves lower value collectors in the black.

WoodenJefferson

<< <i>If you are going to quote me, try including the entire statement. UNLESS IT CAME OFF IN THE DIE, thanks but butt out.. >>



"thanks but butt out"

Very "eloquent" repertoire you have there...

StrikeOutXXX

I've been trying to find pics of certified examples to compare to - this is all I can find so far:

AwlKindsOStuff

It is about twice as porous as a plated penny Sean, when you really get close to it, although in the naked eye it has a mint dull, yet smooth ‘lustrous’, in collector terms, appearance. surface smoothness

The surface in the flat plains also has visible horizontal and verticial lines, similar to what you might see on a typicial, Unc. pennys surface.


The spots, there's something on the surface where the spots are. I have not tried to mess with them for fear of causing any alteration. They are white and surrounded by what appears to be oil leaching into the zinc from this white material. This leaching oil in my experiences is not what an acid would leave behind. Moreover, there would be no traces of any oily substance after acid washings of any nature. And in my experences where white is found after acid, it does not leach, it causes powdery growth, oxidation especialy on zinc. This is not and there is no powdery growth on this coin not from acid nor water. . The zinc is extreemly clean, raw, without any trace of oxidation, especialy in high magnifacation.

AwlKindsOStuff

Thank you strike out! That slabed coin looks as if it has been touched, Lincoln's cheek, forehead and parts of hair, otherwise extremely similar to the coin I am trying to learn about. I would bet were i to touch my coin a bit, it would darken and show detail better, very much like this one too.

WOW!

WoodenJefferson

Butt I do have redeeming virtues

StrikeOutXXX

OK - answer me this - how can that zinc cent be "RD"?

AwlKindsOStuff

The only answer to that, strike out would have to be this.

StrikeOutXXX

<< <i>The only answer to that, strike out would have to be this. >>



Oops - sorry bout that, the cent Wooden Jefferson posted was graded MS65 "RD" - a designation usually given to a bright red cent, that's what I was referring to.

AwlKindsOStuff

Yes i understand but the copper in my photo is red, same red a total copper mint coin should look like.

Play with one for a while and it is going to go bn, or rd/bn which might be the designation of the one you dug up..