What do dealers do with counterfeit coins??

Wisconsin

I recently got a 1916-D dime returned from PCSG as not genuine. I returned to a dealer for a full refund. What do you supose dealers do with these coins that they have to buy back??? DO they destroy them and eat the loss, sell raw at auction and play dumb about the deal. Any ideas here. It would be nice if some measure were taken to remove these coins from the market, but are they??

STONE

A lot of dealers have a black book that they keep their counterfeits in.

ebaytrader

The gold is sold off as scrap and others we usually eat.

ebaytrader

<< <i>A lot of dealers have a black book that they keep their counterfeits in. >>




Book? More like the size of the Library of Congress. You should see the base metal rounds that trickle in each week that source from the local flea market from someone 'desperate' that sold at half of silver melt.

Greeniejr

It all depends on what the coin is. Clearly the number one option is to return it to the dealer we bought it from. When that is not an option we usually save the coin for future reference and comparison. When it is a gold coin we just throw it into our melt pile and make it go away. By the way I have been a long time reader, this is my first post. It has begun

ColonialCoinUnion

My partner collects them. Seriously.

Cladiator

If any of you dealers looking in this thread have any contemporary counterfeit Bust Half Dimes drop me a line. I've been searching for quite a while with no luck.

dorkkarl

can't speak for dealers, but there are MANY collectors of c/f, myself included. i'd guess many dealers collect 'em too.

off the top of my head, i'd guess i have 100 - 200 c/f coins in my collection, not to mention alterations, etc.

K S

TavernTreasures

Sounds like all dealers are honest.

ldhair

There are folks that collect these. Some contemporary counterfeits bring more than the real coin.
I'm sure some dealers have a customer they offer these to. I'm also sure a lot of counterfeits find their way back on the market over and over again.

Hyperion

the guy I go to has a wall display with all the counterfeits in them and tags them as such.. it's eerie to see a big display of nice looking coins... ALL FAKE

ajaan

At the Buffalo Numismatic Association Spring Convention last year Richard Nachbar had a display of counterfeit coins. The display took up two full coin cases. He said he had to get permission from the Secret Service to display the 'coins'. It was a really fascinating display that included gold and silver coins and coins from around the world. It was amazing to see some of the coins that have been counterfeited over the years. Nachbar said all the coins in the display had come into his office.

Barndog

<< <i>Sounds like all dealers are honest. >>



I wish. I guarantee that some dealers will sell any counterfeits that are returned to them.

Wisconsin

<< <i>It all depends on what the coin is. Clearly the number one option is to return it to the dealer we bought it from. When that is not an option we usually save the coin for future reference and comparison. When it is a gold coin we just throw it into our melt pile and make it go away. By the way I have been a long time reader, this is my first post. It has begun >>





Welcome to the boards. I do a lot more reading than posting myself. It can be a fun place to spend some time and learn about the hobby.

Shamika

Greeniejr - Welcome to the Forum.

Regarding counterfeits; there are some serious collectors of these althought I suspect a 16-D would not bring much money in comparison to the real McCoy. Some of the early fantasy pieces can bring amazing prices. There's a story of a man who minted thousands of counterfeit Buffalo nickels back in the 30's. I don't recall the date off the top of my head, but I'd buy one of these if I ever saw one.

BrianKuszmar

<< <i> He said he had to get permission from the Secret Service to display the 'coins'.. >>



He got permission, thats funny.

Nachbar, no worry there, according to his ad's he IS the most honest dealer in the world..

Permission, hhmm If I see him at a show I need to find out which office/officer is the permision giver!

Sorry but I found that statement interesting, All in fun..

Much Regards
Brian Kuszmar
Second Gheneration Coin Dealer

ScarsdaleCoin

Black Book it is.... I remember about 10 years ago, when I purchase a dealer's (who was going out of business) his black book.... thousands of fakes.... I thought to myself...how does a dealer end up with so many and stay in business...LOL

numisma

<< <i>If any of you dealers looking in this thread have any contemporary counterfeit Bust Half Dimes drop me a line. I've been searching for quite a while with no luck. >>



Cladiator, don't hold your breath on that quest! Extremely RARE! But, I am always looking. Maybe I will get lucky. James and I sold a counterfeit Capped Bust Dime to Russ Logan at CSNS back in 2001 (I think). That was unusual as well, but not as rare as a Bust 5C.

Regarding the original question, most dealers keep them. At Jade, we often displayed them for sale in our case. In fact, I think Andy and Danaca still put out the display of counterfeits. They are easy to sell. Some are worth more than the real thing.

When making an offer to purchase a collection, I pull the counterfeits aside and make a separate offer for those items. I take a guess at what retail will be and back off from there. Everything has a value.

PerryHall

<< <i>Sounds like all dealers are honest. >>












In all seriousness, the dealers that post here and share their knowledge with us are for the most part very honest. Obviously, not all coin dealers are honest and some are outright crooks.

Cladiator

<< <i>Cladiator, don't hold your breath on that quest! Extremely RARE! But, I am always looking. Maybe I will get lucky. James and I sold a counterfeit Capped Bust Dime to Russ Logan at CSNS back in 2001 (I think). That was unusual as well, but not as rare as a Bust 5C. >>

I'm painfully aware of how rare they are lol. It's why I'm so blatant about looking for them. If I never spoke up and just looked myself it could be many, many years before I got one. To my knowledge there are a grand total of three currently identified. I've had the pleasure of viewing two of them. I'll get one, some day.

dorkkarl

<< <i>Regarding counterfeits; there are some serious collectors of these althought I suspect a 16-D would not bring much money in comparison to the real McCoy. >>

you got to remember also, that it depends on what kind of c/f. if we're talking about a cheap cast, that's not worth much, maybe $3. added m/m also maybe worth $3. but if you got a good die-struck 16-d, i would pay at least $50 right now for it.

K S

michael

sell them raw as is to bargain hunting collectors

Cladiator

<< <i>

<< <i>Regarding counterfeits; there are some serious collectors of these althought I suspect a 16-D would not bring much money in comparison to the real McCoy. >>

you got to remember also, that it depends on what kind of c/f. if we're talking about a cheap cast, that's not worth much, maybe $3. added m/m also maybe worth $3. but if you got a good die-struck 16-d, i would pay at least $50 right now for it.

K S >>

If you find a contemporary cast counterfeit bust half dime in any condition and I garuantee you that you'll get more than $3 for it

Wisconsin

the problem with selling them as counterfeits is that the next person may not be as honest and market it as the real thing. A few years back I bought a 16-d from a dealer friend as a fake for $25. I put it on ebay and correctly identified it as a counterfeit and still got $160 for it. A woman bought it for her husband. I still wonder if I should have done that??

MICHAELDIXON

When I get a counterfeit, it goes into my 'counterfeit collection.' Luckily, I don't have many coins in it. Years ago there was an old dealer who stressed to me that all good dealers took the counterfeits off the market. He said it helped to keep the market clean and helped encourage collecting. I learned alot from him and have to say I believe in his philosophy.

Barndog

<< <i>

<< <i>Cladiator, don't hold your breath on that quest! Extremely RARE! But, I am always looking. Maybe I will get lucky. James and I sold a counterfeit Capped Bust Dime to Russ Logan at CSNS back in 2001 (I think). That was unusual as well, but not as rare as a Bust 5C. >>

I'm painfully aware of how rare they are lol. It's why I'm so blatant about looking for them. If I never spoke up and just looked myself it could be many, many years before I got one. To my knowledge there are a grand total of three currently identified. I've had the pleasure of viewing two of them. I'll get one, some day. >>



What about that fake 1829 you have in AU-58 PCGS plastic? I'll give you fifty bucks for it.

Cladiator

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Cladiator, don't hold your breath on that quest! Extremely RARE! But, I am always looking. Maybe I will get lucky. James and I sold a counterfeit Capped Bust Dime to Russ Logan at CSNS back in 2001 (I think). That was unusual as well, but not as rare as a Bust 5C. >>

I'm painfully aware of how rare they are lol. It's why I'm so blatant about looking for them. If I never spoke up and just looked myself it could be many, many years before I got one. To my knowledge there are a grand total of three currently identified. I've had the pleasure of viewing two of them. I'll get one, some day. >>



What about that fake 1829 you have in AU-58 PCGS plastic? I'll give you fifty bucks for it. >>

Barndog

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Cladiator, don't hold your breath on that quest! Extremely RARE! But, I am always looking. Maybe I will get lucky. James and I sold a counterfeit Capped Bust Dime to Russ Logan at CSNS back in 2001 (I think). That was unusual as well, but not as rare as a Bust 5C. >>

I'm painfully aware of how rare they are lol. It's why I'm so blatant about looking for them. If I never spoke up and just looked myself it could be many, many years before I got one. To my knowledge there are a grand total of three currently identified. I've had the pleasure of viewing two of them. I'll get one, some day. >>



What about that fake 1829 you have in AU-58 PCGS plastic? I'll give you fifty bucks for it. >>

>>



$51?

lkrarecoins

They get revenge and sell the Coins on EBAY to "CHINA only" bidders...

Seriously though, my guess is dishonest dealers would try to sell to someone else, and hope that they don't have it sent into a TPG.

Honest dealers would put it in their little black book as a souvenir, or sell it as a counterfeit. People collect these too you know!

Cladiator

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Cladiator, don't hold your breath on that quest! Extremely RARE! But, I am always looking. Maybe I will get lucky. James and I sold a counterfeit Capped Bust Dime to Russ Logan at CSNS back in 2001 (I think). That was unusual as well, but not as rare as a Bust 5C. >>

I'm painfully aware of how rare they are lol. It's why I'm so blatant about looking for them. If I never spoke up and just looked myself it could be many, many years before I got one. To my knowledge there are a grand total of three currently identified. I've had the pleasure of viewing two of them. I'll get one, some day. >>



What about that fake 1829 you have in AU-58 PCGS plastic? I'll give you fifty bucks for it. >>

>>



$51? >>

Hell, let's get Mr.HalfDime, the Doctor from TN and a certain numismatic icon from OH here and we'll do an online auction! LMAO!

JrGMan2004

<< <i>

<< <i>Cladiator, don't hold your breath on that quest! Extremely RARE! But, I am always looking. Maybe I will get lucky. James and I sold a counterfeit Capped Bust Dime to Russ Logan at CSNS back in 2001 (I think). That was unusual as well, but not as rare as a Bust 5C. >>

I'm painfully aware of how rare they are lol. It's why I'm so blatant about looking for them. If I never spoke up and just looked myself it could be many, many years before I got one. To my knowledge there are a grand total of three currently identified. I've had the pleasure of viewing two of them. I'll get one, some day. >>

I thought it was 5? Russ had 3 and Steve had his 2...

dorkkarl

<< <i>the problem with selling them as counterfeits is that the next person may not be as honest and market it as the real thing. >>

i don't consider that a "problem", i consider it simply part of life. there's not a danged thing that can be done about it

K S

Cladiator

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Cladiator, don't hold your breath on that quest! Extremely RARE! But, I am always looking. Maybe I will get lucky. James and I sold a counterfeit Capped Bust Dime to Russ Logan at CSNS back in 2001 (I think). That was unusual as well, but not as rare as a Bust 5C. >>

I'm painfully aware of how rare they are lol. It's why I'm so blatant about looking for them. If I never spoke up and just looked myself it could be many, many years before I got one. To my knowledge there are a grand total of three currently identified. I've had the pleasure of viewing two of them. I'll get one, some day. >>

I thought it was 5? Russ had 3 and Steve had his 2... >>

Actually I do believe you're correct George. My bad.

seemyauction

They give them to their counterfeit freinds.....

ElKevvo

Question for the dealers (sorry not trying to hijack the thread!)...do you counterstamp the coins before putting them into the 'black book' or some other way permanently identify them as counterfeit? Just curious as some day many of the black books are passed into other hands and then what happens to the coins?

K

lkenefic

I'm fairly certain my local B&M dealer keeps them for comparison.. They had a fairly nice "1893-S" Morgan a while back. You could barely make out the tool marks where someone changed the "8" to a "3"...that and all the diagnostic features of a real one wern't there.

L

OKbustchaser

<< <i>I'm fairly certain my local B&M dealer keeps them for comparison.. They had a fairly nice "1893-S" Morgan a while back. You could barely make out the tool marks where someone changed the "8" to a "3"...that and all the diagnostic features of a real one wern't there.

L >>



!!!!Hijack allert!!!!

The above is one example of something that really bugs me as a sometimes collector of counterfiets. Altered date (or MM) coins are NOT counterfiet...they are real coinage with the same legal tender status that they had prior to the alteration.

dorkkarl

<< <i>

<< <i>I'm fairly certain my local B&M dealer keeps them for comparison.. They had a fairly nice "1893-S" Morgan a while back. You could barely make out the tool marks where someone changed the "8" to a "3"...that and all the diagnostic features of a real one wern't there.

L >>



!!!!Hijack allert!!!!

The above is one example of something that really bugs me as a sometimes collector of counterfiets. Altered date (or MM) coins are NOT counterfiet...they are real coinage with the same legal tender status that they had prior to the alteration. >>

totally agree, & i hate how the term gets improperly used in this context.

K S

Coxe

I have identified a number of obvious counterfeit Morgans on eBay for quite a while and was actually tempted to buy them at reasonably prices simply to examine them. The best you can do with a counterfeit ethically is to learn from it so you acquire fewer and fewer of them going forward inadvertantly. As a service to themselves, every numismatist really should view a number of counterfeits up close when they are made available in seminars at shows and at coin clubs. It is nearly as important as knowing how to grade when you are up against a key date for purchase (slabbed or raw).

BobGreene

I think that all counterfeit and altered coins that one may receive should be completely destroyed or defaced as soon as possible. Time goes on, as it always does, and someday those counterfeits that have been saved in a dealer's "black book" will come into the possesion of one who either doesn't know they're fakes, or is just not as honest as the person who previously owned them. Many of them will eventually go back into the market unidentified as being counterfeit or altered.

RichieURich

The so-called "black book" for me. Fortunately, just about all were identified as counterfeit before purchase. And some are worth more than the genuine article. I found a counterfeit 1870 Shield nickel at a show that is worth well over the $17 I paid. Also, I would pay a large sum of money for a 1923-D or 1930-D Mercury dime, 1846-O dime, 1891 Barber dime, quarter or half, 1931 Standing Liberty quarter, 1933 quarter, 1999 quarter with the pre-1999 eagle reverse, 1816 half, 1915 Walker, 1928-D Walker, 1964 Franklin half, 1975 quarter, half or dollar, 1805 Bust dollar, or 1915-D half eagle. Just PM me.

rec78

Interesting thread. I just went through my local dealers counterfiet collection this afternoon. He just keeps them. Gold coins are very difficult to detect-he has about 15 of them. But having said that i guess someone with more experience and sees gold coins everyday could tell right away. I have one of those 1944 nickels with no MM. I have seen these sell for as much as $25 on Ebay and they were advertised as counterfiets.Go figure. Bob

RichieURich

<< <i> I have one of those 1944 nickels with no MM. I have seen these sell for as much as $25 on Ebay and they were advertised as counterfiets.Go figure. >>



Worth even more are the Henning nickels other than the 1944 no P. I found a 1947 a couple months ago and I'd say it's worth at least $75 and probably more.

poorguy

What do dealers do with counterfeit coins??

We cook them in a light white wine sauce and serve them over steamed broccolli.

Actually, if a coin is found out to not be genuine, we work with the grading service that holdered it to remove it from the market and try to not take too big of a hit on the mistake.

stev32k

I have about 40 counterfeit trade dollars that I bought mainly for my own education. I payed as much as $35 for some of them. Most I got for $10-$15 and I still pick them up when I find them for a reasonable price. If I ever get the time I intend to publish a photographic guide to them.


It appears that the Government of North Viet Nam counterfeited trade dollars, morgan dollars, and French trade dollars in wholesale quantities during all the war years over there. Real facts are hard to come by, but it seems the counterfeits still circulate in some of the remote parts of Laos, Cambodia, and Viet Nam. The whole subject has drawn my interest and I wish I had the time to get into it more.

Rampage

My local dealer has a drawer on a cabinet that he keeps his in. There is a collector that goes in the shop who also collects fakes. Sometimes the dealer will give a fake to the collector for his collection.

I've got several of the Micro O Morgan Dollar fakes. I've also got two other fakes-a manmade error of a 1964 Lincoln Cent multiple struck (funny thing is that it is on a planchet that weighs 3.11 grams and is copper). The other fake I have is a 1943 Walker in an ANACS slab.

dcarr

Originally posted by: RichieURich
The so-called "black book" for me. Fortunately, just about all were identified as counterfeit before purchase. And some are worth more than the genuine article. I found a counterfeit 1870 Shield nickel at a show that is worth well over the $17 I paid. Also, I would pay a large sum of money for a 1923-D or 1930-D Mercury dime, 1846-O dime, 1891 Barber dime, quarter or half, 1931 Standing Liberty quarter, 1933 quarter, 1999 quarter with the pre-1999 eagle reverse, 1816 half, 1915 Walker, 1928-D Walker, 1964 Franklin half, 1975 quarter, half or dollar, 1805 Bust dollar, or 1915-D half eagle. Just PM me.

Funny, I just came across this 2006 post by accident while searching for something else.
Since then (and no, I did not use the above post as a roadmap since I was never aware of it until now):










Uncanny. Great minds think alike, I guess

lordmarcovan

The sheer awfulness of the new search function has made me stumble across some fun old threads by accident.



When I saw this was Greeniejr's first post and Michael was here and Cladiator was posting prolifically, I knew I'd stepped into a time warp.

RichieURich

Originally posted by: dcarr

Originally posted by: RichieURich

The so-called "black book" for me. Fortunately, just about all were identified as counterfeit before purchase. And some are worth more than the genuine article. I found a counterfeit 1870 Shield nickel at a show that is worth well over the $17 I paid. Also, I would pay a large sum of money for a 1923-D or 1930-D Mercury dime, 1846-O dime, 1891 Barber dime, quarter or half, 1931 Standing Liberty quarter, 1933 quarter, 1999 quarter with the pre-1999 eagle reverse, 1816 half, 1915 Walker, 1928-D Walker, 1964 Franklin half, 1975 quarter, half or dollar, 1805 Bust dollar, or 1915-D half eagle. Just PM me.

Funny, I just came across this 2006 post by accident while searching for something else.

Since then (and no, I did not use the above post as a roadmap since I was never aware of it until now):





















Uncanny. Great minds think alike, I guess

You are correct, Daniel! I have all of those you pictured, plus I recently posted my 1923-D

and 1930-D Soviet dime counterfeits.



I am still looking for the 1846-O dime, 1891 Barber dime, quarter or half, 1999 quarter with the pre-1999 eagle reverse, 1928-D Walker, 1805 Bust dollar, or 1915-D half eagle. Just PM me.



Thanks for reviving this old thread!

logger7

Many display them to share; ICG has a special slab for fakes for educational purposes. Dangerous ones should be defaced as Universal once told me.

CaptHenway

Originally posted by: Greeniejr

It all depends on what the coin is. Clearly the number one option is to return it to the dealer we bought it from. When that is not an option we usually save the coin for future reference and comparison. When it is a gold coin we just throw it into our melt pile and make it go away. By the way I have been a long time reader, this is my first post. It has begun

Some day you will get it right!