Ok, I have been quiet long enough
bri2327
Posts: 3,178 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
It is time to break the silence and talk about a few things.
First, let me congratulate the Detroit Tigers for a superb series. They were quite simply, the better team.
Now for the rest. The Yankees were not a team built for the playoffs. I stated this before the season, and again right around trading deadline time. They were built to beat up on regular season pitching, make the postseason, and fail against a stronger team with a superior pitching staff. It really is that simple.
As for who to blame, what changes are to be made, and the rest of the aftermath...
Joe Torre and the Yankees were a perfect fit for many years. He took them to the promised land, and in turn they brought him a ticket to Cooperstown. Like all good things, this partnership must come to an end.
No finger pointing, monday morning quarterbacking, or blame need be given. Its just time. Time to move on for both sides. Time for Torre to relax, move on to retirement, his family, his post Yankee life. It is time for the Yankees to move on to the post Joe Torre era. His successor will not be a better manager, or a worse one, just a different one. Sometimes change just for the sake of change is a good thing.
As for the much maligned 3rd baseman, I think it is his time to move on also. I, maybe more than anyone on here have criticized Rodriguez, yet I will go on record right now as saying he is without question NOT the reason the Yankees lost. To say he is would be very foolish. He had a great deal of help by everyone in the organization putting together this failure.
It is time for Arod to move on for himself above all. Good or bad, love him or hate him, he now carries too much baggage to stay. He will never be what he wants to be here, and NY will never allow it. Just another partnership that should come to an end.
Everyone has offered opinions on what went wrong, what they lacked, what chemistry was or wasnt there, etc. In the end, the didnt have the arms. The difference is always the arms. Mussina of 2006 is not Cone of 98. Wang of 2006 is not Wells of 98. Johnson of 2006 is not Hernandez of 98. Wright of 2006 is most certainly not Pettitte of 2000. The duo of Proctor and Farnsworth does not resemble the duo of Nelson and Stanton circa 1998. Even the 2006 Rivera is not the 1998 Rivera, though we didnt get much opportunity to determine that one fully.
Maybe the didnt have the comraderie of those 98 Yanks. Maybe they didnt all go out for a steak dinner together on off days. Maybe they didnt back each other at every moment. I dont think it mattered either way. Games arent won by who is friends off the field. They are won by scoring more runs than your opponent, or allowing fewer, however you like to word it. Chemistry is a very overrated value in determining a teams success or failure. The Yankees of the late 70's did quite well with all sorts of inner turmoil.
The big questions seem to be, who should go ? Who should stay ? How can this be righted ?
All fair questions, all with uncertain answers.
I say uncertain because what I feel should be done and what will are two entirely different things. Also different are what should be done, and what is actually viable options.
Start over. Start over today. As mentioned, start with the manager. Again, nothing against Joe, but its for the best of both parties. Start with the biggest star in Rodriguez. Sure, his value has gone down and teams know there will be a sense of desperation, but sometimes a little loss now is better than a big one later.
This wont be a short process. This will take 3 or 4 years. Contracts of unmovable players have to be waited out. Johnson and Giambi fit into the category. The same goes for Pavano.
Mussina should not be brought back. He, and the salary he will command at his age would be a very poor move. They should learn from current mistakes and cut him loose now. The same for Sheffield, who is the one most likely to actually go.
Two players who will be around are Damon and the newly acquired Abreu. Damon will fall under the category of a player who will be well past his prime before the ship is righted and his contract runs out. Abreu should finish his current contract, then too, move on.
By the time the above pans out two others will be near the end of their careers, Posada and Rivera. Chances are neither will be playing by the time this mess is turned around and set on the right track again. Thats life though, and a fact that is bound to happen.
In the end, what alternative do they have but to cut loose where they can, and wait out the few years till the rest are through ? They cant just pile on more mistakes. It is time to let the fans know the plan and the expectations have now changed. Is it really the end of the world to rebuild and start over ? I for one do not think so. I have, like many other Yankee and non Yankee fans, been through it before and seen it through.
Come 3 or 4 years down the road we will all be seeing the team in a new stadium, with a fresh look, less baggage, and significantly less payroll. There will be an aging captain, some young talent, less pressure, and a new beginning. What it will bring, who knows ? Baseball is as uncertain as life, but like life it will go on either way. And like life, whenever you can reduce the madness you may as well do it.
Baseball will go on, the Yankees will go on, and life for the fans will go on. We will continue to support the team like any good fan of their team would and should. Who knows, we might even have a little fun along the way.
Did I mention congratulations to that team from Detroit ?
First, let me congratulate the Detroit Tigers for a superb series. They were quite simply, the better team.
Now for the rest. The Yankees were not a team built for the playoffs. I stated this before the season, and again right around trading deadline time. They were built to beat up on regular season pitching, make the postseason, and fail against a stronger team with a superior pitching staff. It really is that simple.
As for who to blame, what changes are to be made, and the rest of the aftermath...
Joe Torre and the Yankees were a perfect fit for many years. He took them to the promised land, and in turn they brought him a ticket to Cooperstown. Like all good things, this partnership must come to an end.
No finger pointing, monday morning quarterbacking, or blame need be given. Its just time. Time to move on for both sides. Time for Torre to relax, move on to retirement, his family, his post Yankee life. It is time for the Yankees to move on to the post Joe Torre era. His successor will not be a better manager, or a worse one, just a different one. Sometimes change just for the sake of change is a good thing.
As for the much maligned 3rd baseman, I think it is his time to move on also. I, maybe more than anyone on here have criticized Rodriguez, yet I will go on record right now as saying he is without question NOT the reason the Yankees lost. To say he is would be very foolish. He had a great deal of help by everyone in the organization putting together this failure.
It is time for Arod to move on for himself above all. Good or bad, love him or hate him, he now carries too much baggage to stay. He will never be what he wants to be here, and NY will never allow it. Just another partnership that should come to an end.
Everyone has offered opinions on what went wrong, what they lacked, what chemistry was or wasnt there, etc. In the end, the didnt have the arms. The difference is always the arms. Mussina of 2006 is not Cone of 98. Wang of 2006 is not Wells of 98. Johnson of 2006 is not Hernandez of 98. Wright of 2006 is most certainly not Pettitte of 2000. The duo of Proctor and Farnsworth does not resemble the duo of Nelson and Stanton circa 1998. Even the 2006 Rivera is not the 1998 Rivera, though we didnt get much opportunity to determine that one fully.
Maybe the didnt have the comraderie of those 98 Yanks. Maybe they didnt all go out for a steak dinner together on off days. Maybe they didnt back each other at every moment. I dont think it mattered either way. Games arent won by who is friends off the field. They are won by scoring more runs than your opponent, or allowing fewer, however you like to word it. Chemistry is a very overrated value in determining a teams success or failure. The Yankees of the late 70's did quite well with all sorts of inner turmoil.
The big questions seem to be, who should go ? Who should stay ? How can this be righted ?
All fair questions, all with uncertain answers.
I say uncertain because what I feel should be done and what will are two entirely different things. Also different are what should be done, and what is actually viable options.
Start over. Start over today. As mentioned, start with the manager. Again, nothing against Joe, but its for the best of both parties. Start with the biggest star in Rodriguez. Sure, his value has gone down and teams know there will be a sense of desperation, but sometimes a little loss now is better than a big one later.
This wont be a short process. This will take 3 or 4 years. Contracts of unmovable players have to be waited out. Johnson and Giambi fit into the category. The same goes for Pavano.
Mussina should not be brought back. He, and the salary he will command at his age would be a very poor move. They should learn from current mistakes and cut him loose now. The same for Sheffield, who is the one most likely to actually go.
Two players who will be around are Damon and the newly acquired Abreu. Damon will fall under the category of a player who will be well past his prime before the ship is righted and his contract runs out. Abreu should finish his current contract, then too, move on.
By the time the above pans out two others will be near the end of their careers, Posada and Rivera. Chances are neither will be playing by the time this mess is turned around and set on the right track again. Thats life though, and a fact that is bound to happen.
In the end, what alternative do they have but to cut loose where they can, and wait out the few years till the rest are through ? They cant just pile on more mistakes. It is time to let the fans know the plan and the expectations have now changed. Is it really the end of the world to rebuild and start over ? I for one do not think so. I have, like many other Yankee and non Yankee fans, been through it before and seen it through.
Come 3 or 4 years down the road we will all be seeing the team in a new stadium, with a fresh look, less baggage, and significantly less payroll. There will be an aging captain, some young talent, less pressure, and a new beginning. What it will bring, who knows ? Baseball is as uncertain as life, but like life it will go on either way. And like life, whenever you can reduce the madness you may as well do it.
Baseball will go on, the Yankees will go on, and life for the fans will go on. We will continue to support the team like any good fan of their team would and should. Who knows, we might even have a little fun along the way.
Did I mention congratulations to that team from Detroit ?
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win."
-- Yogi Berra
-- Yogi Berra
0
Comments
I agree that Arod needs to be moved for no other reason than his sanity...and you are right, ny will never allow him to succeed.
You say it will take 3 or 4 years to rejuvenate the team, do you think the fans and/or the owner are prepared to do that? I can't help but think the 'just win now, baby' mentality that's seemed to invade the front office all the way down to the fans, combined with a decade of winning, has spoiled the thought of 'rebuilding'.
I agree the difference was pitching, but the number of good pitchers out there is very, very slim. And, I think a lot of free agents are going to look at the way Arod's been crucified there and perhaps think to themselves 'hell if it can happen to Arod, it surely can happen to me'.
A very good read though, nice work Brian.
I survived 1979-1995 with no championship so 4 years of rebuilding doesn't phase me at all.
1996-2001 was the most passionate I've ever seen any one team, for such an extended period of time and I greatly appreciate it.
I also disagree that Steinbrenner will allow the Yanks to "rebuild", in fact, he basically says that the Yankees will not be doing that (at least next year) in his comments made shortly after the season ended. I also don't agree with your assessment that you will see a Yankee team with a lighter payroll 3-4 years from now. If anything, the Yanks will have more money to spend with the new stadium opening. And, George is in poor health, and wants to see another winner in his lifetime - it seems like he thinks he can circumvent the process by spending and spending, and that's not going to change while he still runs the team.
Also, don't take this the wrong way, but you actually said this team wouldn't do well in the postseason? When did you say that, exactly? It was people like me, who pointed out way back in spring training that the Yankees pitching stunk - just ask Dan about that. All I remember is you guys getting all fired up about Wang and Proctor and whomever else was Yankee pitcher de jour, never once do I recall reading that you didn't think those guys were enough. It's like you, and the other Yankee fans, just realized that now. If I'm wrong, then tell me.
<< <i>Also, don't take this the wrong way, but you actually said this team wouldn't do well in the postseason? When did you say that, exactly? It was people like me, who pointed out way back in spring training that the Yankees pitching stunk - just ask Dan about that. . >>
Yes indeed you did state these things Jerry ..... BUT ..... you also sang all winter and spring about the AL East finishing Boston, Toronto, NY. Please, don't sing out one side of your mouth now for gods sake. For as much as you were correct with your post season analysis you were just as much wrong on your beloved Red SOx analysis. Bottom line is, flip a coin, and you will right some of the time.
Brian, good post .....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
<< <i>Also, don't take this the wrong way, but you actually said this team wouldn't do well in the postseason? When did you say that, exactly? It was people like me, who pointed out way back in spring training that the Yankees pitching stunk - just ask Dan about that. . >>
Yes indeed you did state these things Jerry ..... BUT ..... you also sang all winter and spring about the AL East finishing Boston, Toronto, NY. Please, don't sing out one side of your mouth now for gods sake. For as much as you were correct with your post season analysis you were just as much wrong on your beloved Red SOx analysis. Bottom line is, flip a coin, and you will right some of the time.
Brian, good post .....
Point taken, and you are correct.
Jerry...I did note how the Yankees werent built for the postseason with their current pitching. Most recently was right before they made the deal for Abreu. I cant recall the title of the thread otherwise I'd take a quote from it, but before that deal went down I stated several times that I didnt want the deal to be done. I mentioned that any deal they made may help them squeek into the postseason, but they didnt have the pitchers to get them far once they did. I commented on their prospects and how I didnt want to see them mortgage any more of their future just for a chance at making the playoffs when they werent going to go all the way anyhow.
I really wish I was better at tracking down old posts just so there would be no confusion here. Make no mistake though, I definately made it clear that they didnt have what it takes on the mound to go all the way. In fact, I may have been the only Yankee fan on here who was unhappy after the Abreu deal went through, and voiced that displeasure in a subsequent thread.
-- Yogi Berra
As far as the Abreu trade, some people here mentioned that the best part of that trade was getting Lidle. But, Torre didn't even give him a start (opting for the spotty Wright instead). Now, they have to carry both of those guys in 2007 - I agree, that one will come back to haunt them.
i agree arod has to go. he has ed whitson disease.
steve
<< <i>Bri great post.
i agree arod has to go. he has ed whitson disease.
steve >>
hahahahahaha
And jeter should have stepped up as captain and helped his teammates.
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My lasting impression of Arod? the night he tried to slap the ball out of bronson's hand. Too many strikeouts and errors to focus on any one since (and before then)
Steve
<< <i>My lasting impression of Arod? the night he tried to slap the ball out of bronson's hand. >>
And he slaps like a little girl too
A-Rod is soft. TIME TO GO
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>That pic is great. EVEN I was never offended by that one
>>
Hey, one thing we can agree on, Dan!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
cubs could give mark prior and kerry wood to you yanks for A-rod. if both can get healthy it would help NY, and the cubs are used to doing without them anyways.
<< <i>i think A-rod would be a great fit for the chicago cubs. No pressure and with the wind blowing out half the time at wrigley he could put up some monster numbers. he also could go back to playing shortstop and with derek lee and amaris rameriz sandwiched around him in the line-up and juan pierre with 200 hits a year it would help the cubs. they still won't win but will make the afternoon cubs game more enjoyable.
cubs could give mark prior and kerry wood to you yanks for A-rod. if both can get healthy it would help NY, and the cubs are used to doing without them anyways. >>
Let me guess? Cubs fan? I don't think NYY will go for Wood and Prior -- given their luck with high-priced injured pitchers as of late.
<< <i>i think A-rod would be a great fit for the chicago cubs. No pressure and with the wind blowing out half the time at wrigley he could put up some monster numbers. he also could go back to playing shortstop and with derek lee and amaris rameriz sandwiched around him in the line-up and juan pierre with 200 hits a year it would help the cubs. they still won't win but will make the afternoon cubs game more enjoyable.
cubs could give mark prior and kerry wood to you yanks for A-rod. if both can get healthy it would help NY, and the cubs are used to doing without them anyways. >>
Hey man it's hit hit pass buddy! You really think that the Yankees would go after Wood and Prior? Woods has some of the worst mechanics I've ever seen, and the injuries to show for it. Prior, I like him and I still see him being an impact pitcher. Fact is, he had a shot to go to the Yankees and he didn't take it. There is NO way the Cubbies get Arod without giving up atleast Aramis Ramirez and a couple of prospects.
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A-rod will not have much value on the trade market. to many newspaper articles and ESPN stories, and of course if any of the GM's in baseball read the sports forum at collectors universe he want get a minor league contract.
i don't think they will trade a-rod. i don't think a lot of teams will stand in line for his contract or the baggage he brings. new york should keep him, as long as the media is on him they will leave everyone else alone.
<< <i>not a cub fan........i just said a good fit.....i have time to watch afternoon baseball.
A-rod will not have much value on the trade market. to many newspaper articles and ESPN stories, and of course if any of the GM's in baseball read the sports forum at collectors universe he want get a minor league contract.
i don't think they will trade a-rod. i don't think a lot of teams will stand in line for his contract or the baggage he brings. new york should keep him, as long as the media is on him they will leave everyone else alone. >>
And yet, you somehow think Kerry Wood and Mark Prior have comparable trade value? lol, surrre.
Mark Mulder rookies
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NY Giants
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Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
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what i said was that it would be a good fit for A-Rod. i also said it would be more intersting watching the cubs in the afternoon. since i retired (again) the cubs give me somrthing to bet on in the afternoon.
the yankees have enough sore armed pitchers and i don't think they need anymore. A-Rod will be a yankee next year and wood and prior will be on the disable list.
Also word has it that the Yankees will push hard for Daisuke Matsuzaka, the Japanese pitcher just granted permission to sign ...... pitching pitching pitching. If the Yankees concentrate on pitching I will be happy this off-season.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Also word has it that the Yankees will push hard for Daisuke Matsuzaka, the Japanese pitcher just granted permission to sign >>
I expected nothing less from George
<< <i>
I expected nothing less from George >>
ummmmm ok, what do you want? The Yankees to not go after what they truly and actually need? While hopefully dumping some of that glut in the lineup ....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>pitching pitching pitching. If the Yankees concentrate on pitching I will be happy this off-season. >>
i agree that will be the key. i don't think anybody is better than torre. the yanks offense is great, i don't think re-signing sheffield or trading or keeping A-Rod is going to make that much difference. the yanks have enough talent to win it all every year if they can get an establish rotation.
this time of year a lot of staffs have sore armed pitchers like minnesota with radke and liriano. the cardinals and mulder and jason issy.
the team that are in world series contention have established staffs or are lucky like st.louis (jeff weaver)
the yanks are not the only team with work to do.