"Original Skin" on a coin. What does this term mean to you?

SanctionII

I suspect that the term has different meanings to different persons; and further that the "original skin" of one type of, or series of, a coin is different.

I have looked at a number of MS Jeffersons, Roosies, Walkers and Frankies over the past week and noticed a wide variety of surface appearances/characteristics on the coins.

Please tell us what the term means to you. Please also tell about what this term means when applied to the one series or multiple series of coins that you specialize in. If enough people respond to this thread, I think it could be an informative and educational (and perhaps entertaining, depending on the type of replies to this thread that people can think of) thread.

Thanks in advance. SanctionII.

coinlieutenant

Original gold has a "thick" olive green powdery look to it.

I dont think that original skin is really that different from series to series as much as it is from metal to metal.

John

Regulated

To me, saying that a coin has its "original skin" means that nothing has been done to clean or strip it in any way - no dirt or oil has been removed, no dipping, nothing. Where collectible coins are concerned, this term can only really be applied to maybe 2-5% of the pieces out there (if I had to guess). Depending upon how the coin has been stored, an original skin can be thick and crusty (with all of the attendant dirt associated with those terms) or light and attractive. It can be toned or not. Coins that I think have original skin (after all, you can never be 100% sure, lol) have a look that I can only describe in terms of depth, if that makes any sense.

RYK

dizzyfoxx

It's original surface, not dipped at all or cleaned.

Leiana

It means it hasn't been dipped.

-Amanda

ChangeInHistory

I agree w/ Regulated--never been cleaned/dipped in any way.

coinguy1

Ok, so how circulated can a coin be and still retain its "original skin"?

Regulated

A coin can circulate and develop a natural patina. As long as this isn't disturbed, its still original.

roadrunner

The term makes more sense to me with respect to unc or near unc coins (proofs as well). Anything such as dipping that affects the orig surfaces, will remove the original skin. On 19th century silver you lust that craggy/crusty or "rough" look that goes away with the first dipping. Sometimes original skin means nothing if the coin is environmentally damaged, etched, or turned jet black. But on a no problem coin, it's the best way to go imo. In most cases, older coins have to be toned. There are exceptions, but very few. Prior to 1878, a pure white coin with original skin is quite rare. I've never handled one but I wasn't privy to stuff that came out prior to 1975.

roadrunner

Leiana

<< <i>Ok, so how circulated can a coin be and still retain its "original skin"? >>



Aren't you supposed to be able to see mint bloom down into 45?

Then I guess after that the 'original' skin is gone!

I never thought about it like that.

-Amanda

coinguy1

<< <i>Ok, so how circulated can a coin be and still retain its "original skin"? >>



<< <i>A coin can circulate and develop a natural patina. As long as this isn't disturbed, its still original. >>

At some degree of wear/circulation (AU?) a coin has lost enough of its original surface so that I would no longer refer to it as "original skin".

HighRelief

This Gold Indian has a very nice thick frost that I would call "Original Skin"

NumisOxide

<< <i>To me, saying that a coin has its "original skin" means that nothing has been done to clean or strip it in any way - no dirt or oil has been removed, no dipping, nothing. Where collectible coins are concerned, this term can only really be applied to maybe 2-5% of the pieces out there (if I had to guess). Depending upon how the coin has been stored, an original skin can be thick and crusty (with all of the attendant dirt associated with those terms) or light and attractive. It can be toned or not. Coins that I think have original skin (after all, you can never be 100% sure, lol) have a look that I can only describe in terms of depth, if that makes any sense. >>


I agree.

coinlieutenant

I agree with roadrunner...

coinlieutenant

I do disagree that you cant really tell for sure that a coin has original skin. If you have seen enough, a true original coin has qualities that are indisputable...many original coins are debatable or what some call "original now", others are undisputable virgins...and they are VERY few and far between.

Here are two that are undoubtedly original.

Sunnywood

Note that "skin" and "patina" are not the same !! As the ineffably accurate coinguy1 points out, a coin can't be much circulated and retain "original skin." In fact, I would say that a true AU58 may retain much original skin, but anything much below AU58 is not likely to do so. Conversely, any coin, whether circulated or not, whether it retains its "original skin" or not, may develop a patina - a layer of natural toning. A circulated coin may have acquired a nice natural patina, particularly if it was carefully stored in an undisturbed manner for many years after it stopped circulating. However, that is not to be confused with "skin" - a term that connotes the particular surface texture and appearance of undipped, undisturbed as-struck mint state surfaces, including "mint bloom" or luster, which is the optical characteristic of surfaces that exhibit metal flow from striking.

"Patina" is a word often reserved for toning that is silver to pewter in color, or perhaps tending towards russet. By comparison, colorful toning is rarely described as patination, and it is equally rarely found on circulated coins (except perhaps those elite AU58's). Of course, a circulated coin can acquire color from album storage after it has been pulled from circulation, but in general, it is fairly accurate to say that circulated coins are more often found with toning that could be described as a "patina," while uncirculated coins may exhibit toning that exceeds the eye appeal and color connated by the term "patina."

Best,
Sunnywood

SanctionII

Just checked out this thread for the second time. The replies have been really interesting to read.

My understanding of "original skin" is that it can be found only on MS and proof coins, and partially on AU coins. It is different that patina or toning. It is the surface of the coin as it exists at the time it is ejected from the striking chamber. If the "original skin" of a coin becomes toned or acquires patina, the coin still has original skin. However, if such a coin is placed in contact with other matter that disturbs the surface of the coin (i.e. it goes into circulation and over 20 years in commerce wears down to a Fine 20 coin; or it is a pocket piece for two weeks and develops light rub on the high points of the design; or 5 year old Timmy takes the coin from the flip his dad put the coin in and rubs a brillo pad across the coin) the "original skin" of the coin is forever lost.

I suppose that contact marks and hairlines would, technically, compel the conclusion that at least part of the "original skin" of the coin has been lost. This conclusion would not apply to die striations or planchet flaws/marks that remain on the coin after srtiking with the dies (As an example, I have a 1950 Proof Frankie that has lightly frosted devices and multiple marks/chatter on the devices. At first glance these marks/chatter look like post striking damage to the coin. However, looking more closely reveals that the marks/chatter have the same frost as the other portions of the devices. The frost is unbroken across the devices and continues down into and up out of the entire surface area of each mark/chatter on the devices) since the skin of the coin remains unbroken and undisturbed.

It is interesting looking at many different MS (and PF) coins of different denominations, series and metals. Each of the individual series of coins can have individual coins with original skin that have wildly different looks. I guess the variey in the "look" of the original skin on these coins is attributable to different factors, including planchet thickness, die spacing, planchet hardness or softness, die state (early, middle or late), hub state (early, middle or late), die maintenance/cleaning, the correct or incorrect placement of the dies in the striking chamber (parallel to each other or slightly outside of parallel), correct or incorrect planchet annealing before striking and many other things I can not think of at the moment.

The many different looks that "original skin" can have on a coin is one of the more fascinating things to ponder. It leads one to ask why does one particular coin have a certain type of look but another example of the same coin have a completely different look (break open an original bank wrapped roll of any MS coin minted over the past 60 years and compare the coins with each other, many different looks will be present).

My favorite type of "original skin" on MS coins is the type which results in a surface appearance that looks like a very, very, very fine layer of sheen has been deposited on top of the surfaces of the coin. The sheen looks like talcum powder or powdered sugar in size and texture. Very smooth and even, yet granular enough to where you can see that the surface is not smooth a glass window. This look, on silver coins, almost reminds me of a field of new, dry, snow that fell the night before. When the sun comes up the next morning, the unbroken field of new snow just shimmers in the sunlight. The same look is also present on non silver coins.

"Original skin" is hard to describe in words. After looking at enough coins, you find that you "know it when you see it". The two coins pictured by Coinlieutenant in his reply are very good examples of coins that have what I would consider "original skin" (I want those two coins).

Thanks for the great replies to this thread. Very informative and educational wot?

SanctionII

PS. Please forgive the typos in my lengthy reply of a few minutes ago. I guess I need to proof read before I click the mouse.

Myqqy

Very informative and educational wot?

I agree- I've enjoyed reading the comments about original skin and how it relates to circulation wear. This thread beats the crap out of the "dead puppy" thread....

SanctionII

TTT, One more time to see if anyone else wants to contribute their thoughts and opinions on "original skin".

jpkinla

It is easily defined as the amount of my own hide (original skin) that I had to give up to acquire a coin. Needless to say I am not a sight for sore eyes to see these days!

Coinhog

I think it means that it is in an original slab and has not be cracked out in search of an upgrade. Hey, I might put that in my auction descriptions from now on for coins that have potential on resubmits.

Curley

Based on my understanding of a dictionary definition of "original" it would clearly mean a surface just as it came from the mint; bright, fresh, untoned/tarnished. Any other definition is just self-rationalization of personal preferences.

coinkat

Original skin could mean afew things...

First, great thread and some nice pictures have been posted. I like the 1809 5D... VERY NICE and worthy of an original surfaces designation. That coin clearly illustrates the need for the designation.

I am of the view that all undipped and unenhanced coins have original skin... the grade assigned to the coin is a reflection of its state of preservation in an effort to best describe its appearance. Wear obviously impairs lustre but the skin is really what makes a coin what it should be.

I believe original coins can be detected and recognized with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

lkenefic

How about this one? Original skin even though it probably only grades VF? I see you r point about MS coins having original "skin" or luster. But I think this could also apply to coins that have their original skin from circulation...Thoughts???

coinkat

Circulated coins can have original skin... as does the 1877 posted

coinguy1

<< <i>Circulated coins can have original skin... as does the 1877 posted >>

I disagree. I think coins like that while "orignal" looking, have had their "original skin" worn away/off long ago.

TwoSides2aCoin

I agree with Mark. To me, original skin is original mint luster. As the coin wears, is rubbed, or goes through circulation, it inevitably loses it's original skin. The original skin starts it's deterioration with "LUSTER BREAKS", "HAIRLINES" , "RUB" and is essentially gone when it goes below the AU50 grade.

mrcommem

Any Questions?

TavernTreasures

In my opinion, skin can never be original, and is something that comes after the coin is minted.

Wolf359

Some great-looking original coins posted in this thread.

I would add, sanction said it best, as original as when the surfaces left the striking chamber, but
I think a say...VF20... can be all original because what remains has not been disturbed except by circulation, what remains is still original, as struck.

I'm not into heavy toners, but light-to-moderate rim toning can be very attractive.

Original coins deserve a premium over their non-original cousins in the same grade, imho.

coinkat

I read some of the responses to this thread after my last post. I am disappointed in my post in that I did not define or frame the issues associated with the discussion in a meaningful way... I want to take a second shot at this...

There is a difference between lustre and what was likely contemplated in the question What does original skin mean to you? The skin of the coin obviously wears as it circulates which reduces the lustre. Lustre is concidered by most to be the reflectivity of a coin generated by the metal flow lines that exist from when the coin is struck. Other than circulation, the lustre of a coin can also be impaired from improper cleaning and dipping.

Lets take a stab at separating the terms original and skin... from the responses, it seems that there is a view that original skin means as struck and that wear effects the skin. While this is one reasonable interpretation, perhaps an equally valid argument can be made that original has to do with how the coin was handled, stored and whether it was dipped or enhanced after entering circulation. One has to accept that business strikes were intended to circulate... if that is true, then is it reasonable to suggest that the skin will change as the coin circulates. Originality takes on a different meaning for circulated coins in that it is expected that the skin will be worn and some lustre will be lost... but if the coin retains that circulated look with surfaces that have not be dipped, cleaned or enhanced... does the coin have original skin? I say it does and the measurement of this loss is in part determined by how we grade the coin.

Original skin remains on circulated coins... the degree of making that determination soley on lustre creates a unfortunate set of circumstances that will likely lead to more coins being enhanced in anticipation of a higher grade. I think the 1895-O Morgan in the other thread illustrates my point.

Honest...I am trying to be brief and to the point.

cladking

This is usually a non-issue as it applies to clads, but most will start whiter than
a nickel and gradually yellow with age. The yellow has a sort of copper-like ap-
pearance that almost seems to lie under the surface. Other colors are possible
and many of even the oldest are still quite white though.