Mr. Jeter ! (MVP)

softparade

5 for 5 in game one. He IS THE MAN

murcerfan

Imagine that.......the most over-rated player in all of baseball.

RickyHendersonSD

One of those a Home Run too. Makes A-Rod look very small. Sharon must be steaming. He will probably come on this board eventually and comment on how Jeter is overrated and having a pretty good year.

bri2327

thegemmintman

Go Jeter!! Go Yankees!!

ToppsCo1lector

Jete proves ONCE again why he's the Captain of the Yankees. He's the man. 5 for 5 with 3 runs scored. GO YANKEES!!!!!!!!!

murcerfan

yeah....but,but,but..... he's just a singles hitter.

I hear Big Floppy slugger types are much more valuable.


....especially if you need a tee time in October

Writer11

The guy is unbelievable. I'm Canadian and love Morneau, but Jeter is the MVP.

Axtell

MVP my ass.

Put Ichiro in front of that murderer's row of hitters and he'd hit .400.

Give me a break.

80sToyguy

Sorry Axtell, I disagree--Ichiro would hit .500!!! Once again he sees pitches that no one else in baseball sees.
Jay

ziggy29

Tim McCarver probably had to change his underwear several times while watching his hero getting it done in October.

Skinpinch

Jeter sees better pitches than anyone else? That has to be the biggest case of hersay I've ever heard. Where is the documentation, evidence, proof? Where is the proof of anyone benefitting to such a great degree where an overrated hitter like Ichiro would all of a sudden be a .400 hitter in a slightly better lineup. Go through every hitter's season by season batting line, and then contrast it with who was batting behind him. See if there really is a difference in performance. True, RBI or Runs scored will be affected, but those measures aren't used if one wants to decipher how good a player is.

Ichiro fans, you should be urging your hero to get that on base percentage to the .400 level, and maybe he wouldn't be battling Tony Phillips in career on base percentage(in which Phillips did it in a tougher era to hit in too!!). Oh Wait, Ichiro just grounded out to second again.

Writer11

<< <i>MVP my ass.

Put Ichiro in front of that murderer's row of hitters and he'd hit .400.

Give me a break. >>



Ax,

Who would your MVP vote go to?

Axtell

<< <i>
Ax,

Who would your MVP vote go to? >>



Morneau.

80sToyguy

Skinpinch, I can't prove it, there is no evidence, so I guess it has nothing to do with reality and I'll just keep my ideas to myself. All I can say is my friends and I, for years, have talked about this with other players as well. The thing is, unless someone actually sits at all 162 Yankee games (or whichever team for other players) and documents this I don't have anything to add. Simply looking at a players numbers by OBP, AVG and SLG you aren't seeing the whole picture and you and I will never agree--you feel that whomever is batting behind or in front of a particular player makes no difference to a players performance and I completely disagree with you or anyone else who feels the same you do.
Jay

Skinpinch

80'stoy, the thing is, people actually do sit at all games and monitor such things. But that doesn't even need to be done. The results are right there via play by play data of what occured, who was batting where, you name it.

Only in the most exteme cases will you see a batter not do as well, or perform better, as a result of seeing better pitches because a stiff or stud is batting behind them. Even in those cases it is slight. Check every single player in the history of baseball(which has been looked at), and do the exercise of charting their at bats with various level abilitied players behind them. Their offensive performance really doesn't change. THEIR RBI MAY CHANGE, BUT THAT ISN'T A REFLECTION OF THE PLAYERS ABILITY.

You are overblowing the significance of this so much. How much of a difference do you think it really makes if Jeter had Giambi behind him, and Ichiro had Edgar Martinez? Heck, even if it is only John Olerud compared to Giambi! It doesn't make any difference at all in how many 'good' pitches a hitter gives a batter, when even the average number FOUR hitter is standing on deck.

AX, DOESN'T AROD HIT IN THE SAME LINEUP???

80'STOY, I hate to use just a single example, but why did Vlad have his best season when his supporting offensive lineup was below average? And his second best season with more of the same? Pujols was in a lineup that struck no fear in pitchers(besides him), and he still goes nuts, and has his second best percentage year. Do this exercise with every player ever, and you will see.

Unless a guy has Axtell batting behind him, then it is true he may never see a pitch, but that simply isn't the case of the reality of what has happened in MLB.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>Only in the most exteme cases will you see a batter not do as well, or perform better, as a result of seeing better pitches because a stiff or stud is batting behind them. Even in those cases it is slight. Check every single player in the history of baseball(which has been looked at), and do the exercise of charting their at bats with various level abilitied players behind them. Their offensive performance really doesn't change. THEIR RBI MAY CHANGE, BUT THAT ISN'T A REFLECTION OF THE PLAYERS ABILITY.
>>



Skinpinch, I am surprised that you, of all people, is buying into the Jeter overhype insanity. I'll give you a Red Sox example that goes against your above comment. Don't you think David Ortiz benefits greatly from having Manny hitting behind him? Having Manny behind him protects him, and forces teams to pitch to Ortiz. The last few weeks of the season, with Manny out, Ortiz was continually intentionally walked. Without Manny there, Ortiz does not hit 60 HR's this year.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>Sorry Axtell, I disagree--Ichiro would hit .500!!! Once again he sees pitches that no one else in baseball sees.
Jay >>



Sorry Axtell and 80's toyguy - you are both wrong.


Ichiro would hit .550, and be annointed King Of New York if he took his skills, and got to apply them in a stacked lineup like the Yankees have.

gregmo32

Here is a question from a baseball fan who likes neither the Yankees or Red Sox. In the question of getting better pitches to hit because of better players behind and in front of -- what about the player on the inferior teams getting pitches to hit late in games because their team is losing 7-2 and no one is on base, or other such scenarios...Any comments? Baseball is the most measurably individual sport statistically, but it is impossible to state qualitatively how much these factors affect performance. By the way, a couple random thoughts... I believe 86 year old Barry Bonds led MLB in walks again this year, and was near the top in OBP. And in 1961 does anyone care to guess how many intentional walks Roger Maris collected?

softparade

Jeter could go 40 for 40 in the World Series and yet, guys like ctsox will ALWAYS be babbling and swinging away grabbing at any reachable straw to try and tear him down. How sad is that ....... YAWN

ziggy29

<< <i>Jeter could go 40 for 40 in the World Series and yet, guys like ctsox will ALWAYS be babbling and swinging away grabbing at any reachable straw to try and tear him down. How sad is that ....... YAWN >>

As I said in the other thread, it's not so much that he isn't good, but a lot of people hate the Yankees, and I don't think anyone oozes Yankee To The Core the way Jeter does.

He's a hell of a talent, he seems like a pretty decent guy and somehow he always seems to turn it up in October. I just wish he weren't in those damned pinstripes.

80sToyguy

Gregmo, awesome post! Obviously this has nothing to do with Jeter, but that is great info about Guerrero when he was on some really bad Spos teams--I watched many of those games and was actually at a few. They were always behind and who's going to walk Guerrero with 2 outs in the 9th in a 5-1 game? Another player who benifited for this greatly was Soriano this year, ran all the time and I believe was caught 15-18 times, somewhere in there. No way he goes 40-40 on a good team.
CTSox, you made a good point, and I too don't know why Skin has jumped on this bandwagon. But what I'm talking about goes way beyond balls and strikes, it comes down to good "balls" to hit (hard to explain, but when Ortiz is unintentinally intentionally walked the last pitch is 2 feet outside--when Jeter is walked that last pitch is always borderline, so when he hits it he has a pretty good chance of putting it into play). Of course this is simplified, I know I'm going to get grilled by Skinpinch again, but Skin I just wrote a long report about this and it was 3 paragraphs long and I still didn't really get "it" down. I just can't do it on paper, this would have to be discussed. I just think you miss the point that line-up plays a much larger factor than you give it credit for. A guy who has the 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 hitters behind him who would ALL be 3 or 4 hitters on any other team is going to see better pitches in my opinion, but we just don't agree, and I just can't keep writing about this as these are all run-on sentences and other's will be bored to tears I'm sure.
Jay

Skinpinch

ctsox, I'm not buying into the 'leading the team' to a championship hoopla, because he wouldn't have a single title with a bad pitching staff. And postseason play is basically a crapshoot once your there.

ctsox, Ortiz is getting pitched around and not getting as many home runs...but his OB% is going way up! And his SLG% doesn't drop either(it isn't like he stops hitting home runs as he still gets his share of pitches to hit). His value, when measured accurately isn't changing. Actually, all those extra intentional walks aren't a good strategy for the defense.

Bonds hit 73 Home runs with crater face batting behind him. He got pitched around as a result, which meant he had less total HOME RUNS(than if a better hitter were there), BUT, his OB% became astronomical, and his Slugging percentage did not drop because he got pitched around. It actually made him more of an offensive force.

Put Jeter in a lineup where he gets walked more, then he simply raises his OB%, and his SLG% remains the same...which actually makes him a BETTER offensive player.

The bottom line, if your ascertation is true that a lineup can make a hitter, then I would expect to see a guy like VLAD come from a bad lineup, and then raise his SLG% astronimcally when he goes to a good lineup...and vice versa. If a star hitter has a change in the lineup where a bad hitter comes behind him, then I WOULD EXCPECT his OB% and SLG% to drop astronimcally as a result. The reality is that this does not happen in MLB. When every player is looked at, it just doesn't happen to show much 'lineup' validity at all. The only thing that really changes is runs scored, or RBI, but those aren't used in the true measurements. So the fault is where one is typically looking for the value(RBI).

You can lambast Yankee fans all you want on the rah rah Jeter leader junk, but there is no validity in the lineup statement.

80's toy, your statement abut Soriano exemplifies my point! Him stealing 40 base and getting caught actually makes his baserunning less valuable than if he chose his spots correctly and had 20 SB and 2 caught. Only the average fan gets excited about hte 40 SB, and ignores the CAught stealing. The advanced fan recognizes the 20 and 2 is better. Same with the totla Hr and RBi as I said above...they recognize the value in the HIGH OB%.

ToppsCo1lector

<< <i>MVP my ass.

Put Ichiro in front of that murderer's row of hitters and he'd hit .400.

Give me a break. >>



Talk about a singles hitter. And NO, Ichiro wouldn't hit .400. He's not that good.

ToppsCo1lector

<< <i>

<< <i>Only in the most exteme cases will you see a batter not do as well, or perform better, as a result of seeing better pitches because a stiff or stud is batting behind them. Even in those cases it is slight. Check every single player in the history of baseball(which has been looked at), and do the exercise of charting their at bats with various level abilitied players behind them. Their offensive performance really doesn't change. THEIR RBI MAY CHANGE, BUT THAT ISN'T A REFLECTION OF THE PLAYERS ABILITY.
>>



Skinpinch, I am surprised that you, of all people, is buying into the Jeter overhype insanity. I'll give you a Red Sox example that goes against your above comment. Don't you think David Ortiz benefits greatly from having Manny hitting behind him? Having Manny behind him protects him, and forces teams to pitch to Ortiz. The last few weeks of the season, with Manny out, Ortiz was continually intentionally walked. Without Manny there, Ortiz does not hit 60 HR's this year. >>




If you forget, check the 5 game Yankees sweep at Fenway. There's your answer on lineup protection.

Axtell

<< <i>
If you forget, check the 5 game Yankees sweep at Fenway. There's your answer on lineup protection. >>



Yes, because 5 games tells the story of an entire 162 game season...give me a break.



<< <i>Talk about a singles hitter. And NO, Ichiro wouldn't hit .400. He's not that good. >>



You're right, he's better...and don't hate because there's no yankee as good as he is. Finally, we all know if Ichiro were on the yankees, you'd be gloating about how great he is, blah blah blah.

Pull your head out.

stown

<< <i>

<< <i>
If you forget, check the 5 game Yankees sweep at Fenway. There's your answer on lineup protection. >>



Yes, because 5 games tells the story of an entire 162 game season...give me a break.



<< <i>Talk about a singles hitter. And NO, Ichiro wouldn't hit .400. He's not that good. >>



You're right, he's better...and don't hate because there's no yankee as good as he is. Finally, we all know if Ichiro were on the yankees, you'd be gloating about how great he is, blah blah blah.

Pull your head out. >>



Wow!

Tinkerbell just admitted that Ichiro is better than A-Rod

Boopotts

<< <i>Jeter sees better pitches than anyone else? That has to be the biggest case of hersay I've ever heard. Where is the documentation, evidence, proof? Where is the proof of anyone benefitting to such a great degree where an overrated hitter like Ichiro would all of a sudden be a .400 hitter in a slightly better lineup. Go through every hitter's season by season batting line, and then contrast it with who was batting behind him. See if there really is a difference in performance. True, RBI or Runs scored will be affected, but those measures aren't used if one wants to decipher how good a player is.

Ichiro fans, you should be urging your hero to get that on base percentage to the .400 level, and maybe he wouldn't be battling Tony Phillips in career on base percentage(in which Phillips did it in a tougher era to hit in too!!). Oh Wait, Ichiro just grounded out to second again. >>




Just look at Rich Aurilla. He hit ahead of Bonds for three years (or at least I think it was three), and his career stats for 2001-2003 are just about on par with his career numbers. And this was when he was hitting in front of the most dominating offensive baseball player in the last 40 years.

murcerfan

so what is the summary of all this numbo-jumbo?


Ichiro is over-rated.

A-rod Sucks.

.....and Jeter is a stone cold winner and the ultimate clutch player/team leader.
and the focus of a staggering angst and frustration by a bunch of young, angry, wannabe "haters"
whom like to think of themselves as a "nation"

bri2327

<< <i>

<< <i>
If you forget, check the 5 game Yankees sweep at Fenway. There's your answer on lineup protection. >>



Yes, because 5 games tells the story of an entire 162 game season...give me a break.



<< <i>Talk about a singles hitter. And NO, Ichiro wouldn't hit .400. He's not that good. >>



You're right, he's better...and don't hate because there's no yankee as good as he is. Finally, we all know if Ichiro were on the yankees, you'd be gloating about how great he is, blah blah blah.

Pull your head out. >>



Curious how you are absent on each thread where Skin disproves each and every warped theory of yours regarding protection in the lineup with real facts and data. I guess its just a coincidence that you skip posts where facts are presented that shoot down your entire world ????

alpemomo

Curious how you are absent on each thread where Skin disproves each and every warped theory of yours regarding protection in the lineup with real facts and data. I guess its just a coincidence that you skip posts where facts are presented that shoot down your entire world ????


Bri - that's the pattern for our thee amigos (skippy, commieboy and Ax)

They challenge with thier opinion (touted as facts) duck all rebutals and then attack personally - it's the same arguments over and over


As far as Jeter, as a Braves fan I hate this guy! To say he's overrated is stupid, if he was overrated we would not be talking about him every post season when he delivers another clutch hit, run, catch or throw out. Face facts the guy shows up and delivers when his team needs him to deliver. He's not about his stats he's about winning!

Of course Axe doesn't get it his beloved team has never been to the series

yankeeno7

ToppsCo1lector

<< <i>

<< <i>
If you forget, check the 5 game Yankees sweep at Fenway. There's your answer on lineup protection. >>



Yes, because 5 games tells the story of an entire 162 game season...give me a break.



<< <i>Talk about a singles hitter. And NO, Ichiro wouldn't hit .400. He's not that good. >>



You're right, he's better...and don't hate because there's no yankee as good as he is. Finally, we all know if Ichiro were on the yankees, you'd be gloating about how great he is, blah blah blah.

Pull your head out. >>




5 games in their own stadium; with only the Division championship literally on the line with their biggest rivals. When else does it really matter, if not in that situation? Ortiz and Ramirez combined for 11 RBI, a recently back from disabled list Robinson Cano had 10 RBI in that series.

If there isn't as good of Yankee, what's all this constant yapping about Errod being the best player in the bigs, oh wait you changed it to best in the AL, now have you further devalued the "good looking and successful" Arod? Actually, as good as Ichiro is he doesn't fit in to the Yankees. He's a singles hitter. That's it. Weren't you the same guy who stated that "If Ichiro wanted to he'd hit 30 homers a season, he crushes the ball in batting practice!". Yeeeeeeah. You sure know a helluvalot about baseball buddy.

stown

<< <i>and don't hate because there's no yankee as good as [Ichiro] is >>



Since Tinkerbell abandoned this thread, guess he knows he done f-ed up

Skinpinch

It use to bother me when Yankee fans touted Jeter as the leader, and gave him more credit than his actual runs produced/runs saved accompishements. The more I let sink in what they were saying, it was easy to understand why they feel that way, and I try and back off as much as I can when they say such things.

Heck, I can picture Bri at a game with a beat up '76 Munson in his wallet, or Softparade sitting in the bleachers thinking of Bonnie Bernstein between pitches, all the while Jeter was giving them big moment after big moment. It would be impossible not to embrace Jeter they way they have. And you know what? He is the best player on that team, and he is one of the big reasons why they do win. Yeah, I know they don't win without all the other parts, but they would have a harder time winning without him too. Too bad the Cubs didn't have him when their staff was healty, his PLAYING ability would have put them in the WS too. I always say, Jeter is so talked about so much and hated as a result by many, that he has actually become underrated to some degree.

ToppsCo1lector

Skin-He's just always been coming through. Since he was a rookie! I know for myself, I grew up(I'm 21 now) with Don Mattingly. When he retired, as a fan I was really looking for a Clipper to step up and be that guy. That guy turned out to be Jete. Again and again and again, he comes through. For years(and in some respect, deservably so) he was "not as good" as ARod and Nomar; but when it came down to it Jete got the job done when it was needed. Hell I know he doesn't put up incredible, eye-popping numbers. But, on the field he always plays at 110%; he is a quiet leader, and with a manager like Joe Torre a perfect fit for Captain.

Skinpinch

Topps, you know, even putting all intangibles aside he has been a better player than Arod the past three seasons combined. This is based on in depth analytical measures. He has been flat out responsible for more runs created/saved than Arod has. What has helped is that he has really improved defensively. His past three seasons put him above average at SS defensively.

As you said, Arod had him for a while there, but that tide has changed. They both still have a third of their career left. With Arod's strange psyche, who knows how long he will be good. It isn't beyond the realm that he pulls a career WHAM like Dick Allen or Jim Rice and just fall off at 35 and be done. Everybody is assuming he will still be a monster until age 40. THat isn't a guarantee.

In Jeter's future, I don't see any immediate slow down. In fact, I wouldn't rule out another season or two where he just pulls out a 25+ homer season, while maintaining his nice OB%. Added to his improved defense, he is better now than he ever was.

In terms of baseball card future, I would buy the best Jeter RC's now(though I'm not a fan or knowledgeable of the modern items). He may be a contender for Rose's record. If he averages 185 hits per season through age 40, he will be at 3,630 hits. Knowing that he is very much in his prime right now, he may be able to tack on another 100 hits to that 3,630 over that course of time. That basically puts him at the same spot Rose was after age 40. From there, who knows! I don't know much about Jeter's pespective on things like that(if he is interested in pulling an old man Rose), but it could get exciting.

Arod is going to have to average 30 HR per year through age 40 to break Aarons record. I don't see that happening, even with the HGH. I think he is entering the beginning of a down turn in production now, and his brain has me scared for old man Home RUns.

ToppsCo1lector

Jetes "best" rookie is his SP. It has a foil design(I've never had one myself) but it's nearly impossible to find without chipping. I'm basically picking up his Topps rookies right now(imagine that, right?); and his minor league cards. If/When a nice priced SP comes along, I'll pick up a few copies of that as well. No doubt he'll always have "hobby" love, he's a Yankees, a World Series MVP, Rookie of the Year, 4 Rings, a plus .300 lifetime BA, and imo he's one of the most consisten players of this generation. I don't collect for future value, but it's nice to pickup something knowing that if someday Im blessed with being a father my kid can have it, or pawn it off for something he wants when I croak.

WinPitcher

so what is the summary of all this numbo-jumbo?


Ichiro is over-rated.

A-rod Sucks



Yep..

Steve