1993 Topps Refractor Revolution! Please Read, Guys!
jgarci11
Posts: 289 ✭
I am so glad we are talking refractors because this is the best way to not only find out how many have been damaged, BUT we can stir up attention to these gems which will result ultimately in a rising demand for them! I know alot of your guys don't like the 1993 refractors, but that is mostly because you don't understand what these cards represent. In my opinion, the future is on the side of the '93 refractor not the older bowman and topps cards some of you are so in love with. At the West coast card shows, I always see the Rare older cards just sitting in a glass case selling for something like $14,000 dollars and having people just look at them! DO THESE CARDS EVER GET SOLD? Heck, donate them to the Baseball hall of fame and stick the government with the bill at tax time, if your really want to sell them.
The level of prejudice against modern cards is what is going to kill the hobby. In addition, the lack of collector education about the modern cards hurts the progress of our hobby. Things are not all simple and basic as they were in the good old 1950's, realize that and accept it! Cards are refractored, paralleled, and 1 of1'd to all heck now a days and, we the true collectors need to know how to navigate through this chaos, so we can make our hobby stronger. If we don't try and put aside our own card prejudices, we are dooming our collections and the entire hobby.
When I was a kid and saw how expensive the Mantle cards were, I swore one day that I would pay as much money as possible to buy the next mantles and the next gehrigs! I was going to buy the rare cards that had real growth potential, for my kids and family, because I did not want my kid to feel like his dream card was out of reach, the way I did.
If you guys would just look at the population report for PSA, BGS, and SGC, you will see that the RAW refractors are truly RUNNING OUT! For example, the Mark Mcgwire refractor 1993 is nearly at 200 graded. BGS and SGC have graded an additional 16 between them both. Eventually, the number of graded cards will hit 241! What will happen then, guys? What happens when there are no more refractors in raw condition? The prices are so rediculously low right now that 1 person could, conceivably, buy a good chunk of all the refractors for one player, and still have enough to pick up any raw, short willie greenes in the process! Beckett magazine is so out of touch for not seeing the refractor scarcity coming up!
In fact, there are super hoards of raw refractors possessed by members of this board who have not graded their stuff. Just ask RangerCalfas! Add in their hoards to the ones graded by PSA and BGS and you will all see that we are witnessing the end of the cheap availability of 1993 refractors. If a sudden thing was to cause demand to increase, each card would race to over a thousand dollars, easily. The Ryan, Ripken, and Mcgwire would be astronomical!
I think the Willie Greene card should be made a big deal. Tell the media, Tell Beckett, Tell everybody, because it will cause a scavenger hunt through every refractor hoard and if it turns out that some idiot in 1993 trimmed a good deal of them, then the number of refractors in unaltered form will fall. The price, because of scarcity will rise. Am I the only one who knows this? Facts are facts, the 1993 refractors marks the beginning of the modern baseball cards, not the overproduced 1989 Upper Deck. The cards are limited, and eventually finding one in raw form will be impossible. It has started already, because it is so impossible to find the Nolan Ryan refractor. The Ripken and Mcgwire are next.
Do not believe Beckett Magazine. And EBAY list these cards but they won't reappear at such a cheap price again. Not only that, but if you guys want to buy the 1993 Mcgwire Refractors showing on ebay- good luck -- because I am going to pay any price to buy them both. In fact-I am intending to buy every Mcgwire 1993 refractor that comes up on ebay from now on! I already have 20 of them, 5 graded and 15 raw! I do this because I know how rare these cards are, in any condition and because I am a Mark Mcgwire Baseball card super collector!
So start spreading the news!!
When is anyone going to talk about the 1996 Select Certified Mirror Golds?
The level of prejudice against modern cards is what is going to kill the hobby. In addition, the lack of collector education about the modern cards hurts the progress of our hobby. Things are not all simple and basic as they were in the good old 1950's, realize that and accept it! Cards are refractored, paralleled, and 1 of1'd to all heck now a days and, we the true collectors need to know how to navigate through this chaos, so we can make our hobby stronger. If we don't try and put aside our own card prejudices, we are dooming our collections and the entire hobby.
When I was a kid and saw how expensive the Mantle cards were, I swore one day that I would pay as much money as possible to buy the next mantles and the next gehrigs! I was going to buy the rare cards that had real growth potential, for my kids and family, because I did not want my kid to feel like his dream card was out of reach, the way I did.
If you guys would just look at the population report for PSA, BGS, and SGC, you will see that the RAW refractors are truly RUNNING OUT! For example, the Mark Mcgwire refractor 1993 is nearly at 200 graded. BGS and SGC have graded an additional 16 between them both. Eventually, the number of graded cards will hit 241! What will happen then, guys? What happens when there are no more refractors in raw condition? The prices are so rediculously low right now that 1 person could, conceivably, buy a good chunk of all the refractors for one player, and still have enough to pick up any raw, short willie greenes in the process! Beckett magazine is so out of touch for not seeing the refractor scarcity coming up!
In fact, there are super hoards of raw refractors possessed by members of this board who have not graded their stuff. Just ask RangerCalfas! Add in their hoards to the ones graded by PSA and BGS and you will all see that we are witnessing the end of the cheap availability of 1993 refractors. If a sudden thing was to cause demand to increase, each card would race to over a thousand dollars, easily. The Ryan, Ripken, and Mcgwire would be astronomical!
I think the Willie Greene card should be made a big deal. Tell the media, Tell Beckett, Tell everybody, because it will cause a scavenger hunt through every refractor hoard and if it turns out that some idiot in 1993 trimmed a good deal of them, then the number of refractors in unaltered form will fall. The price, because of scarcity will rise. Am I the only one who knows this? Facts are facts, the 1993 refractors marks the beginning of the modern baseball cards, not the overproduced 1989 Upper Deck. The cards are limited, and eventually finding one in raw form will be impossible. It has started already, because it is so impossible to find the Nolan Ryan refractor. The Ripken and Mcgwire are next.
Do not believe Beckett Magazine. And EBAY list these cards but they won't reappear at such a cheap price again. Not only that, but if you guys want to buy the 1993 Mcgwire Refractors showing on ebay- good luck -- because I am going to pay any price to buy them both. In fact-I am intending to buy every Mcgwire 1993 refractor that comes up on ebay from now on! I already have 20 of them, 5 graded and 15 raw! I do this because I know how rare these cards are, in any condition and because I am a Mark Mcgwire Baseball card super collector!
So start spreading the news!!
When is anyone going to talk about the 1996 Select Certified Mirror Golds?
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Comments
I did have the same thought as you collecting 10 players and trying to buy up all that I could find. I can tell you that this idea is not a very good idea, especially when you announce to 10,000 people who you are going to hoard. Most here would rather place their money in something more stable like older cards where foul play does not enter in.
Best of luck on your quest.
Shane
Since then, I started buying and selling older cards. One rule of thumb, the older, the better. I just got into T206's and the demand is huge. You could never go wrong owning that set. It may look like nobody is buying the old cards at shows but trust me, that's where the real money is at. When those people buy, they drop like $500 a shot instead of 20 people spending $5 at your table. It looks like a frenzy but most of those modern buyers are spending hardly anything of cards. They want $100 book value cards for $5.
I wouldn't invest any long term money in modern inserts, especially ones that aren't serial numbered. In 10 or 20 years, it will just look like another 90's insert to the average collector unless they either know the story behind the cards or somebody explains it to them. A 1909 card will always be super old and super sought after because of that. I'll be dead before 90's inserts become super old.
But that being said, they are cool looking cards and I would consider collecting them, but at most maybe a couple bucks a card.
I also want to comemnt on the price guides. The price guides determine the value of a new issue, or old issue, based on their own opinion. Do tehy really have data that determines supply and demand of a card in the market? No, maybe one guy and a bunch of card dealers trying there best to hype up there own stuff or stifle competitors that have rarer things. Beckett is seeing as the go-to guide for pricing but their prices are unsubstantiated. Then just one month after a product is sold, they lower the values on the cards. Probably the best thing beckett did was to list prices for high graded cards that were recently sold on ebay. finally some real numbers were being put forth. Unfortunately, beckett seems to not want to show population numbers from BGS or PSA. Knowing the population numbers of graded cards would change a HUGE amount of prices!!! in fact, beckett's 2 tier column of mint and near mint would become obsolete. Soon there would just be 10,9,8,7 and junk columns.
Let us also look at how high gem mint commons sell for. You would never get that idea from any popular price guide. The price guides do nothing but over hype the most current product and under price rare older cards. Why is this done. I think Beckett assumes that all products depreciate immediately, without regard to the products mintage/production numbers or difficulty ratio in obtaining the cards. Alos, Beckett doesn;t even try to advertise themselves or the hobby. Beckett pioneered the card pricing industry but they are not helping it anymore, especially since we can get better, more accurate information elsewhere.
In my posts about the refractors I mention that raw Refractors are running out. PLease look at the PSA popualtion numbers. Look at how many are graded. Eventually the number graded will reach 241 to 250. What happens when teh only price you can pay for a card is the graded price? Also, in regard to someone having a printing press for the refractors, don't we are think that we would see a WHOLE lot more of these cards on ebay?? It seems like there are alot only because tehre are collectors who bought up refractors by teh handfull in an attempt to hoard them. They thought they were sneaky and would score big when the refarctors went through the roof. Well, because no one knew what was going on, no one seemed to care and the card values have become "stable." These profit driven indidviduals have obviously lost patience (right GOURSTAR from ebay?) and are dumping the cards because they need the money. What they should have done is right a letter into beckett or PSA and literally stae "hey I am hoarding the refarctors and I'm willing to pay any amount to do it" Look at what happened to the price of anmdre Dawson refractor once the hall of famer (future) admitted he was buying up the card! That is why I am declaring taht I am going to buy every 1993 Mark Mcgwire Refractor taht comes on the Market on ebay. Case closed. If soemone wants one then fine outbid me, do it, etll your freinds to do, because You are helping to raise the refarctors demand and price.
As for the set, it was the 1997 Totally Certified Football Golds. How did you know? I had about 100 total with up to 3 of some of them which isn't bad considering they only made 30. That was a fun set, I miss it, but left me feeling a bit unrewarded since they were so tough to find or I had to pay through the nose from people who thought they were worth that much (which I didn't).
It is true though that the value of that stuff would be astronomical if the general collecting base of people ever came back. Could you imagine if even 200 people were actively making a set numbered to 30? A common card would be $1000.
<< <i>That is why I am declaring taht I am going to buy every 1993 Mark Mcgwire Refractor taht comes on the Market on ebay. Case closed. If soemone wants one then fine outbid me, do it, etll your freinds to do, because You are helping to raise the refarctors demand and price. >>
I"m betting you're too young to remember the Hunt Brothers and the silver market in '79, but it might be worth looking up.
There is another guy out there trying to corner the market on '64 Topps Giants in 9 and 10. He's going to go broke and then the prices are going to collapse. And there is a lower supply and greater demand on those than anything from 20-30 years later.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
I have owned some of the toughest, most desirable serial numbered cards that could be had. If this is what you like collecting that is great. Just as Steve mentioned that the old cards like the T206 will always have market. Yes this stuff does bring a profit, unfortunately the new stuff brings a loss-sometimes a large loss. I have a friend that has a Michael Jordan collection with cards numbered to 20 and he can't get rid of them. He spent thousands of dollars buying this stuff up and now he is sitting on dead money.
The market for the new cards is dying just like the dealers that specialize in this stuff. It is sad to say, but the new cards are not for the young kids anymore. The manufactures like Topps and Bowman concentrated market is the 30 something to WAGER his money to open up a 4 pack box for $180 to see what special card you get. At that cost, a normal 12 year old can't share in the enjoyment of opening a box of cards with their father like we did. The market has changed for the card industry and it will change again.
Shane
I agree with you to a point, but think there are a lot of new products out there that are reasonably priced that are a lot of fun. I opened a box of '06 Allen and Ginters with my son last week, and he hasn't stopped talking about it. He went and put the set in binders and made up a want list right away. He didn't care what they were worth, just like we didn't when we were kids. He just cared that he got the players he liked.
The problem I see with anything expensive from the last 20 years is twofold- it's an artificial rarity, and I don't see many collectors who buy and hold this stuff longterm. The focus is always on the value, not on the pride of ownership. While this occurs on pre War I think it does so to a much lesser extent- if the bottom fell out of the market tomorrow I'd consider a buying oppurtunity and get some sets finished.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Shane
On the issue of old vs. new I would say this. The older cards have a huge leg up because there were so few sets that most older players had only 1 to 3 main issues a year to collect so everyone want's those sets and cards. With the newer cards, even rookies, what makes one numbered out of 30 set different than the others? With new cards it comes down to personal preference on which sets people collect, I think over rarity as there are so many rare sets issued every year. If there was just one set issued each year numbered out of 50 and it included all the hot rookies you would see people go nuts and getting those cards.
The fact is that we have the ability to identify rare cards and so why are we not buying up key cards and haording them. In addition, why aren't we hyping up the rare cards so that otehrs can be interested in the cards also. Why must we rely on Beckett?
Someone brought up the Hunt brothers and their attempts to corner the Silver market in 1979. Everything I am doing is because of them. What the HUnt brothers didn't understand though, was that there is ALOT of silver floating around in the world. More than is documeneted. Taht emans it would take too mcuh to accomplish their goal. Tehy probably knew that, but because EVERYONE started to learn what they were trying to do, teh hype started to send the demand for silver Higher, resulting in silver being worth nearly $80 an ounce at one time!
The key demographic that Topps and Bowman reach is open to hearing how rare the mid-nineties inserts are. The Generation X males will soon be in positions to buy rare cards and when given the chance will they choose to spend $1,000 on a raw late 60's mantle or a Gem Mint 1997 Alex Rodriguez Pinnacle Totally Certified Platinum Gold with change left over? The demographics are changing and once the average collector and person begins to undersatnd teh mid-nineties inserts, things will change.
The popualtion reports are the best way to know what has been graded. Tehy aren't close to perfect though.
If only we could have an unofficial could registry of raw insert cards, we would be very capable of seeing which cards are in personal collections.
Trust me, the refractors are priced low right now because people are letting them go in order to get enough money to pay bills. It will not be this way forever and eventually some whacked Generation X'er is going to scour the earth in an attempt to buy as many of them as possible. It is going to happen, so buy what you can now, guys and get them graded!
<< <i>but the new cards are not for the young kids anymore >>
This quote stated by 1954 is very important in regards to future values. When the kids of today start making a living and have disposable income, they will turn to collecting items from their youth. I don't have any sort of pulse beat on new cards, but if the kids are buying them, they will want them when they are adults. If the current generation isn't touching them today, then there is a real good chance that they will be cold as ice in the future. Kind of the same reason why people go crazy over '67 GTOs and '71 Cudas today.
Is the McGwire scan a refractor, I have never owned one before?
Scott
1977 Topps Star Wars - "Space Swashbucklers"
regards,
Scott
1977 Topps Star Wars - "Space Swashbucklers"
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
<< <i>Where do I start? The 1993 Topps finest refractor set is a great set. I have owned one complete set and graded the whole thing out. Three PSA 10's (Ripken, Griffey and Henderson) that sold for big money. My problem collecting the new items are many to say the least. First off you are dealing with a very small market that pays big dollars for new cards. Secondly, (I am going to get it really bad here for stepping on toes, but this has been my experience) the new card collectors are the largest problems with payment and card theft via Ebay. I have been burned by 6 guys over the past five years on new cards and quite frankly it is not worth my time. I do realize that there are many great collectors out there that collect the new cards, but I experience very little headache when it comes to the old stuff. Thirdly, there has been rumor to old employees stealing or making more of the refractors for their personal desires. This really scares me as a collector/investor of non serial numbered cards.
I did have the same thought as you collecting 10 players and trying to buy up all that I could find. I can tell you that this idea is not a very good idea, especially when you announce to 10,000 people who you are going to hoard. Most here would rather place their money in something more stable like older cards where foul play does not enter in.
Best of luck on your quest.
Shane >>
I share your sentiments.
Im hoarding a few particular low print run cards myself and doing quite well (sorry, wont tell you what they are). In each case I own about 35-60% of the runs. Its kinda fun
http://www.clark22murray33.com
<< <i>In regard to the 1997 Pinnacle Totally Certified Platinum Gold Football: I know that you trued to build your set because of a post you made a while back on this board. I have watching and researching everything for years. The packs for the totally certififeds were $15.00 a pop. No wonder it turned people off. The cards are AMAZING!!! Good luck finding a baseball card from this set for under $50. The football set is just as beautiful, if not more so. The football set came out after the baseball set, and it shows that pinnacle touched up on the design. These acrds are serial numbered up to 30. While these are rare, many people want them but think they are too expensive or not worth the bother of bidding. I wanetd to trying a hoard all teh football, baseball, or hockey Pinnacle totally certified golds for a while, but, strangely decided to buy up the 1997 Pinnacle totally certified Hockey Mirror PLATINUM GOLDS! The MIRROR PLATINUM GOLDS FROM HOCKEY ARE INCREDIBLE AND ONLY WERE AVAILABLE THROUGH A REDEMPTION PROGRAM A FEW EEKS BEFORE PINNACLE WENT BANKRUPT! They are very cheap right now, and if any one put together a PSA set, I am sure soem auction complany would sell it for you guys! >>
Ive picked up several 1996 Mirror Golds for less than $50. Its a shame I cant find an PSA Murray for less than a few bills. I just missed on one a year or so ago, PSA 10. Too expensive for my tastes though. I did score big on my PSA Will Clark from the set. I feel like I got a steal of a deal on that one for less than $100.
http://www.clark22murray33.com