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1887 Morgan. Not in the books. What VAM is this thing?

This is an ordinary 1887 Morgan I picked up today. I saw the eye spikes without magnification, then notice the clashing under my loupe. This coin has clashes where I have not seen them before, or very often:

1. The stalks of the cotton bolls are very evident above the shafts and heads of the arrows in the eagle's claws. Inverted, of course.
2. There is a classic barwing on the eagle's left wing; I have seen that in the past on the right wing.
3. Below the eagle's neck is a clashed image.

With this extensive image transfer there is no obverse image on the normal places I look: first the right wreath, then under the tailfeathers for the big E, and Liberty's profile in the left wreath.

On the obverse, we have the following:

1. Just below Liberty's chin, we have three separate spikes protruding into the field. This indicates to me that there were at least three separate clash events.
2. What's up in Liberty's eye? There are two rather prominent spikes below the eyelid.

I can't bring up Ashmore's site, so any help is appreciated.

Rick

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Cotton stems, bolls from obverse
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Liberty's hair possibly creating a bar wing
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Again, obverse hair image below the eagle's neck
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Neck spikes (three separate)
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First view, eye spikes
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Second view, eye spikes
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Proud recipient of YOU SUCK more than once and less than 100 times.

Comments

  • New title, maybe someone has an idea.
    Proud recipient of YOU SUCK more than once and less than 100 times.
  • Is that an O/CC? image

    -Amanda
    image

    I'm a YN working on a type set!

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  • wrong reverse picture, thanks for noting I will fix it!
    Proud recipient of YOU SUCK more than once and less than 100 times.
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>wrong reverse picture, thanks for noting I will fix it! >>

    I suspected as much. I hadn't heard of an 1887 O/CC before. That would have been a spectacular find! (Especially since it would be from the same reverse die as the 1900 O/CC!) image


  • << <i>

    << <i>wrong reverse picture, thanks for noting I will fix it! >>

    I suspected as much. I hadn't heard of an 1887 O/CC before. That would have been a spectacular find! (Especially since it would be from the same reverse die as the 1900 O/CC!) image >>



    Yeah, big oops sorry it is fixed now.

    I did a couple of great O/CC this week a VAM 8B and VAM 11.
    Proud recipient of YOU SUCK more than once and less than 100 times.
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,963 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No trace of an E under the eagle's tail?

    It's interesting that the lower edges of the wings are doubled. Other than that, it's a big clash coin that Mark Kimpton might be fascinated to see.
    When in doubt, don't.
  • I sent a pair of those to Leroy Van Allen in April 06. He wasn't impressed. Says the lines in front of the eye are clash marks from reverse olive leaf. Since there is no letter transfer die to die, it's just a neat looking VAM 8 with a far slanted date.


  • << <i>No trace of an E under the eagle's tail?

    It's interesting that the lower edges of the wings are doubled. Other than that, it's a big clash coin that Mark Kimpton might be fascinated to see. >>



    Dennis, when I picked this up and saw the reverse I was sure I would see the E. Not a trace, not a hint. Transfer of obverse image occured in places I haven't seen before. What do you think of the eye spike?

    Rick
    Proud recipient of YOU SUCK more than once and less than 100 times.


  • << <i>I sent a pair of those to Leroy Van Allen in April 06. He wasn't impressed. Says the lines in front of the eye are clash marks from reverse olive leaf. Since there is no letter transfer die to die, it's just a neat looking VAM 8 with a far slanted date. >>



    Larry:

    Thanks for the update. That sure does not look like olive leaf to me, looks more like misplaced eye doubling. I think there i senough going on here for a new VAM number.

    Rick
    Proud recipient of YOU SUCK more than once and less than 100 times.


  • << <i>What do you think of the eye spike? >>

    Ha image I read your mind and answered this question before you asked it. image


  • << <i>

    << <i>What do you think of the eye spike? >>

    Ha image I read your mind and answered this question before you asked it. image >>



    But I wonder how that can happen. Have you, or anyone else, ever found eye spikes in a clashed Morgan? I guess this should go to Mark. We should have seen something like this in the past and I hav enever seen/read about it.
    Proud recipient of YOU SUCK more than once and less than 100 times.
  • very interesting and nice coin nonetheless! would send it to somebody for their opinionsimage
    steve

    myCCset
  • CoxeCoxe Posts: 11,139


    << <i>I sent a pair of those to Leroy Van Allen in April 06. He wasn't impressed. Says the lines in front of the eye are clash marks from reverse olive leaf. Since there is no letter transfer die to die, it's just a neat looking VAM 8 with a far slanted date. >>



    Been there too with this one and another that has a near slanted date. The top leaf in the wreath clashed twice by the eye. The clash below the eagle's beak is the hair below Liberty's ear. The one on top of the left wing is the high point about half way across the hair directly behind the jaw. Won't get a designation because there are no transferred letters. I like these nonetheless. They are undercollected and may have rarity of their own. The same goes for the shunned clashed dies that are paired with new other dies. (eg clashed reverse with a perfect obverse)
    Select Rarities -- DMPLs and VAMs
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  • << <i>

    << <i>I sent a pair of those to Leroy Van Allen in April 06. He wasn't impressed. Says the lines in front of the eye are clash marks from reverse olive leaf. Since there is no letter transfer die to die, it's just a neat looking VAM 8 with a far slanted date. >>



    Been there too with this one and another that has a near slanted date. The top leaf in the wreath clashed twice by the eye. The clash below the eagle's beak is the hair below Liberty's ear. The one on top of the left wing is the high point about half way across the hair directly behind the jaw. Won't get a designation because there are no transferred letters. I like these nonetheless. They are undercollected and may have rarity of their own. The same goes for the shunned clashed dies that are paired with new other dies. (eg clashed reverse with a perfect obverse) >>



    John:

    I find this to be a far more interesting coin than many of the high-demand VAMs. What interesting coin on both sides, with clear transfer of devices yet none of the nomral transfers. I will label it as 8?? and put it away until the hobby catches up with it.

    Rick
    Proud recipient of YOU SUCK more than once and less than 100 times.
  • CoxeCoxe Posts: 11,139
    Some of the biggest clash disatsers are like that. a die was loose and the clash is not square and plumb. That can give a bias to what clashes and even smear the clashes.

    The 1886 VAM-1C is interesting. You have a number of clashes with rotations, translations and tipping, but not a lot of representation that is usually found on the right wing. The dies were just dancing all over the place. One I just sent to Leroy was probably one of the first few struck from that reverse die (it's PL) and it demonstrates this pretty effectively. It also shows more than 3+2 clashes.
    Select Rarities -- DMPLs and VAMs
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    SSDC - Life Member
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