Full bell lines full head full bands, do you care?
veryfine
Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭
How important are full bell lines, full head, full split bands, full hand/thumb detail etc.?
As for the incredibly wealthy collectors, this question probably doesn't apply to you. After all, you have to spend your disposable millions on something! But for most others, does a full bell line Franklin half really matter to you all that much? A slight interruption in line detail makes you toss and turn and night and the only cure is to spend thousands more to see those lines?
Come on, let's face it, the Franklin half dollar is a relatively simple design and that particular detail is really unimportant (IMO.) Similarly, the full split band attribute is no big deal, or is it? Is it really? How about near split bands? Not good enough?
The Standing Liberty quarter full head designation seems to hold the most weight. After all, the coin is so intricately detailed and the head is always a major focal point on the human figure. But how about an "almost full head" slq? I would be thrilled to own an almost full head 1927-s slq.
Now before you answer, take note of my following comments:
I am aware that these details might result in the difference between a $1000 coin and a $10000 coin, so obviously the market is strong in this area.
I am also aware that details are part of collecting and the desire to seek out the best of the best. Uncommon attributes always get attention.
In general, my comments do not apply to late 18th and early 19th century pre-steam press coins.
So don't respond with what you are supposed to say, but rather, respond with your personal opinions. As collectors, how do you feel about this?
As for the incredibly wealthy collectors, this question probably doesn't apply to you. After all, you have to spend your disposable millions on something! But for most others, does a full bell line Franklin half really matter to you all that much? A slight interruption in line detail makes you toss and turn and night and the only cure is to spend thousands more to see those lines?
Come on, let's face it, the Franklin half dollar is a relatively simple design and that particular detail is really unimportant (IMO.) Similarly, the full split band attribute is no big deal, or is it? Is it really? How about near split bands? Not good enough?
The Standing Liberty quarter full head designation seems to hold the most weight. After all, the coin is so intricately detailed and the head is always a major focal point on the human figure. But how about an "almost full head" slq? I would be thrilled to own an almost full head 1927-s slq.
Now before you answer, take note of my following comments:
I am aware that these details might result in the difference between a $1000 coin and a $10000 coin, so obviously the market is strong in this area.
I am also aware that details are part of collecting and the desire to seek out the best of the best. Uncommon attributes always get attention.
In general, my comments do not apply to late 18th and early 19th century pre-steam press coins.
So don't respond with what you are supposed to say, but rather, respond with your personal opinions. As collectors, how do you feel about this?
1
Comments
Edited to add: I think it may be a registry set competition ego thing.
<< <i>How important are full bell lines, full head, full split bands, full hand/thumb detail etc.? >>
IMHO, if strike were of the utmost importance, I would prefer NGC standards for FBL and those that are graded such are strong overall strikes. For SLQ's I prefer a full shield to compliment a full head. One without the other is for plastic collectors. For dimes, I do prefer FB'ed. Strongly struck coins can add beauty for the well trained eye and should command a premium over their counterparts.
I love FB mercs, as they look far better, and strike is important to me.
FBL franklins... I have some, but honestly, it does not make much a difference in looking at the coin to me.
So it depends. In general, these designations are signs of a better strike, which can add directly to eye appeal, which is purely what I buy on.
guess I just don't put that much importance onthe designations being a representation of the "best of the best" theory...
L
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Franklin Half Dollars, Circulation Strikes (1948-1963)
Grade Points: 65.50
Completion: 100.00%
Set Rating: 65.50
Owner's Comments:
All coins are brilliant white or nearly so. Greg seeks out those coins that are of the highest quality within their respective grade. He will pass up an opportunity to add a FBL coin to his set if he perceives that it is inferior in quality to a non FBL coin already in his set. He believes that too much emphasis is currently being placed on FBL examples, and that PCGS is so inconsistent with their FBL standard, that the FBL designation is oftentimes moot.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Yea, verily.
Focusing on a very small part of the design seems rather odd (perhaps obsessive) to me.
A strong shield on double dimes usually means a strong eagle's right wing top on the reverse, so I care about that. However, if I were to find one with a strong LIBERTY on the shield and a strong upper wing with a mushy Liberty head and eagle claws, I wouldn't find it as appealing as a strong overall strike. In other words, I prefer a strong overall strike even if some small sections are less than fully struck.
Obscurum per obscurius
In the examples you mention the Full Head seems least valuable designation. I agree the head has lots of details and I like to see them. However if the die was tilted very slightly it is possible to get a full head with other details weakly struck. I prefer to see all rivets in the shield fully struck over the full head.
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Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
My sentiments as well. Since FS is worth two more points in the Registry, I'll take a non-FS coin graded two points higher every time.
<< <i>
<< <i>How important are full bell lines, full head, full split bands, full hand/thumb detail etc.? >>
IMHO, if strike were of the utmost importance, I would prefer NGC standards for FBL and those that are graded such are strong overall strikes. For SLQ's I prefer a full shield to compliment a full head. One without the other is for plastic collectors. For dimes, I do prefer FB'ed. Strongly struck coins can add beauty for the well trained eye and should command a premium over their counterparts. >>
I agree, however, strongly struck coins are desired by both trained AND untrained eyes. You don't need to be a connoiseur to notice the merits of a full shield and full head. I am partial to slqs, since they are my favorite series, but money is an issue for many of us. A wealthy collector will seek out the sharpest, fully struck example and shell out the cash. It has very little to do with having a "trained eye."
JMP = Just my preference.
<< <i>
In the examples you mention the Full Head seems least valuable designation. I agree the head has lots of details and I like to see them. However if the die was tilted very slightly it is possible to get a full head with other details weakly struck. I prefer to see all rivets in the shield fully struck over the full head. >>
The slq is a tricky example. A weakly struck shield with missing rivets is a definite negative. I would be happy with a just miss full head and a full shield.
Yet another way to promote more TPG submission for something a blind man can see anyway.
So, yes, in many cases I do care.
<< <i>I do care because I believe the better strikes will always sell for a premium. >>
Exactly you have to pay a premium for them and you get a premium when you sell it. Net effect is ZERO.
I also look for the Full Bands on the mercs, Because the strike is complete and I think the strike looks better (typically). Also the bands are towards the center of the coin, a focal point. (maybe because there is a FB desig., maybe if there wasn't, it wouldn;t be such a focal point.
For some reason, I think FB on the Roosies is a joke and don't even consider that aspect.
Full bell lines not all that important, typically the bell will look just fine with 90% lines
The above is just in reference to strike, of course there is luster, hits, color (or lack of) to consider.
<< <i>On Walkers, I try to get full hand/thumb and skirt details, as IMO these coins suffer greatly in eye-appeal without such details. >>
Yes, I agree. Walkers with a full thumb look neat, and require no magnification to see that aspect. Interesting that no 'strike designation' has been introduced by thr TPG's for this.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
I collect buffaloes, and Full Horn or Full Split Tail pieces do carry a premium over less well-struck pieces. Strike is a characteristic of every date/mm that must be taken into consideration when evaluating such a piece.
-Amanda
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Or for the same amout, I rather own a well worn-out, nice looking XF45 or AU50 1916-S Ten dollars Indian Gold than a FBL Franklin half.
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
Are you willing to pay astronomical sums for this desirable detail?
For example, let's examine the 1945 full bands Mercury dime. Many of us are aware of its value, but would you pay thousands for a full split band 64 over a near full band 66 at a fraction of the cost?
Let's assume the 64 fsb has positive eye-appeal with attractive original surfaces. Let's also assume the 66 near full bands has superb eye-appeal with beautiful peripheral color.
Well???
Currently I am looking for TII and TII SLQs - I would prefer not to have to pay for FH designation, however that being said not all non-FH are created equal. So long is there is sufficient detail present to communicate the design of a coin, well, that is what I primarily care about.
*
And don't forget Full Talons on SBAs!
>>>My Collection
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
Longer answer: I care about the quality of strike more than the designation on the plastic. Quality of strike is not measuable in two quanta, as one would think looking at Jeffs, Mercs, Roosies, SLQs, and Franklins. A well-struck coin of a poorly struck issue, such as a 45P dime or 53S half, is more desirable than a typically struck coin, even if not noted on the plastic. Coins like this, where the superlative designation was just missed represent more bang for the buck than do the poorly struck coins or registry-priced Full Whathaveyou designated coins. By the same token, fully struck coins in series with no strike designation (WL Halves, Morgan and Peace dollars) are a pretty good value compared to the same such coins in other series. Do you think anyone would be able to sell a full-thumb 40-S or 41-S Walker for the same markup as you can get on a 53-S Franklin?
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<< <i>And how about full beak Washingtons???? >>
I remember ACG started slabbing all these designations: Full Beak, Full Tail, etc.
Some SBA collectors prefer Full Talons.
Myself, I'm collecting AU IHCs and prefer diamonds and/or lustre.
Photos of the 2006 Boston Massacre
details but also centering. The strike should be even with the dies perfectly parallel
to one another. The die should be well hubbed and as fresh as possible. And finally
the coin should be struck with sufficient authority that all detail is well defined. With
some coins this will prove an impossibility but it is the ideal. These coins will always
have the designation when it applies so the designation does winnow down the num-
ber of coins you have to look through.
I've always felt that missing detail almost may as well have been worn off.
<< <i>I'm waiting for a "full hair" designation on New Orleans Morgans.
I was in a really depressed mood tonight, but you got a good chuckle out of me!
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
I currently do not own a FSB merc, a FH SLQ or a FBL Franklin. A couple have come and gone, but they don't stay around too long.
All about the strike? I disagree: on mint state coins it's all about the luster. Without that you have squat (ie a circ or cleaned coin).
roadrunner
<< <i>*
And don't forget Full Talons on SBAs!
Ah yes, the lowly, the ugly, the almost ignored SBA...... But, Full Talon SBAs are still readily available at no premium so why not look for them? The 1980-S, for example, shows FT only 5 to 10% of the time and the 1999-P non-SMS are FT around 10%.
Curiously, Full Talon has little relationship to strike quality (except at the rare non-'99 MS67 level where the relationship can be inverse) but a well struck, clean SBA with FT is a good coin to put away whether holdered or not.
Lack of FT seems more due to grease filled dies than poor strikes, IMHO, so it is an feature that has little to do with strike and thus perhaps more worthy of attribution than features in other series that are strike related.
Now, aren't you getting just a little interested in this neglected series???? Rob
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<< <i>Do not care one iota. Strike is the least important factor to me, always has. Give me luster, surfaces, color, eye appeal first. All I need is a decent or acceptable strike. Since I stay in the 19th century with MS coins for the most part where full stars, or full head, or full foot, or full drapery, or full feathers is not ultra critical, it matters relatively little.
I currently do not own a FSB merc, a FH SLQ or a FBL Franklin. A couple have come and gone, but they don't stay around too long.
All about the strike? I disagree: on mint state coins it's all about the luster. Without that you have squat (ie a circ or cleaned coin).
roadrunner >>
I don't disagree with you but will point out the obvious anyway; much depends on what you collect.
We all seek the unusual and the superb but what constitutes quality in an 18th century coin is not
what constitutes quality in a modern coin. Even most of the tougher modern coins exist in sufficient
numbers that you can find it in some condition even if that's VF whereas many of the older coins are
scarce in any condition. There is not a significant quantity of most of these that you can wait for a very
well struck example with all the attributes that make a coin high grade and having excellent surfaces.
It tends to matter less with the earlier coins anyway since most are pretty well struck there is less rea-
son to seek out those which are. Silver and copper simply strike up better than cu/ni and don't erode
the dies so quickly. More importantly quality was more important in that era and the mint had higher
standards. Dies tended to be swapped out before they were heavily worn. They were more likely to
be installed perfectly or adjusted if not.
Of course our opinions of such things is shaped largely by what has survived and people tend to pre-
serve the best.
<< <i>From the intro.comments to my Registry set:
Greg ... believes that too much emphasis is currently being placed on FBL examples, and that PCGS is so inconsistent with their FBL standard, that the FBL designation is oftentimes moot. >>
Amen.
My favorite coin is the Franklin. I've got a whole set, and I'm working on an FBL all-PCGS MS65+ Franklin set, just because. Yes, the FBL matters to me, but when I finally have the buckage to get them all sent into PCGS, that "inconsistent standard" is the *real* issue. Um, say, when does the B team get off work?
If I could make an observation, as much as I like PCGS, I'd say the "average Joe" collector routinely gets lower and slower grading than the big bucks guys and the who's who in the coinworld. Just my two cents. It's beginning to seem pretty political to me, or is it just me?
Given what I just said, are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? If a $25 near full step Jefferson nickel is worth $60 with full steps, I might shell out the cash for the better coin. But what if the sharper example is worth 100 times the price of the "just-miss" example?
See my earlier question regarding the 1945 Mercury dime.