Another eBay vintage war story

f2tornado

I'm new to this board and just getting feet wet with some older/vintage Twins cards and slowly working my way back through the 1970's for raw Topps Twins team sets. I'm now on the 1975. I've read several eBay raw threads here that have run the gammut from the good, the bad, to the ugly. Here is another one to add to the pile. I purchased this 1975 Topps Twins Team Lot from Colorado-Mountain-Sports. The seller has a fairly good reputation from what I've heard and also based on the 12,000+ feedback score. The description stated the cards were near mint or a 7 on his scale which is essentially the PSA scale. The scan suggested the cards were close to what was described but only a portion of each card was scanned. Colorado Mountain wanted $4.00 to ship which one could argue is high but I willingly paid it. CMS offers a satisfaction guarantee for their products but shipping is not refundable. This didn't initially concern me as a reputable seller with 12,000+ feedback won't take you for a ride, would he? Ok, I know the rule of thumb on eBay is to expect a grade less when buying raw and hope for the best so I would have been perfectly happy with a potential mix of 6's and 7's.

My packaged arrived in the mail several days later. The cards were shipped in a cheap ten cent paper (no bubbles) mailer with 63 cents postage. No DC, no insurance. The cards themselves were placed in a team bag with no sleeves and then reenforced with a couple chunks of recycled card board. All said, CMS had less than a buck invested in shipping this stuff and profited about $3. I'm not here to gripe about shipping costs and making a profit from them as I've dealt with this issue for 10 years and just incorporate it into my bid price. One has to admit however that the overall packaging was quite poor and the seller clearly made an additional profit. As if this wasn't bad enough, the cards themselves were nowhere close to a 7 on the seller's scale (more or less the PSA scale). I doubt there was a 7 in the whole batch and most were probably in the 5 range along with a few 6's. Yuck for an 18 card lot. I politely wrote the seller my wish to take advantage of the satisfaction guarantee pledge and will be returning the cards. I also requested my shipping/handling fee be returned as this was clearly a seller error and not buyer remorse. I sent the cards back in a bubble mailer with 83 cents postage and received a refund for the purchase price less the shipping. I'm out about $5 with nothing to show for it while Colorado Mountain is able to restock the item back in his eBay store here for the next unsuspecting buyer to get nailed. I figured since I was out $5 becuase of a seller's error and possible intentional deception that I was entitled to leave a negative feedback comment. I did just that and received the obligatory retaliation.

I clearly, and I mean clearly, understand that this is partially my fault as I could have asked CMS for a better scan of the cards. I was aware of the no refund shipping policy and did get my purchase price back as stated so the seller is at least technically in the right. What bothers me most is this seller displayed the cards in the scan so the best corners and centering were shown. The scan image itself may have been cropped to hide some of the edges... but would you even suspect anything from a 12,000+ feedback seller? In my opinion CMS intentially deceived me in order to profit from their overpriced shipping (given the actual cost of postage and material). Someone with a 12,000 rating can take some negative here and there and the customers will not blink an eye. Meanwhile the shop can profit $3 here, $3 there. I doubt many people would bother to leave a negative if the purchase price was refunded despite being out several dollars. I know I'm happy when I get my refunds but not this time.

Feel free to post your thoughts in support of my position or Colorado Mountain Sports. Regardless of consensus, I will not be shopping with CMS ever again. If you've had a god experience buying raw from a seller I'd be happy to hear. So far seller wholelottalumps (if I got that name right) has been solid with condition but they don't offer a lot of cards.

Anybody want to take the CMS challenge and buy that lot of Twins cards?

Eddo33

I remember this seller had a 39 playball Dimaggio that I was looking to add to my collection. I remember the title was deceiving as it said something like 39 playball Dimaggio 4. I thought like you did that one should assume VG/Ex. I looked at the scan for a while and there was no way it would even grade a 3. Needless to say I passed bought a PSA 4 and just by pass them as a seller!



Eddie K

storm888

I bought some PSA cards from them a long time ago and it was uneventful.

BUT, I would never buy raw cards from a dealer on EBAY, unless I was already
on friendly terms with them.

Also, when I see carp like this ..................


"""We are proud "Power Sellers" in the family. Since only the "Elite" dealers qualify for this membership, you, as the consumer, can buy from Colorado Mountain Sports with complete confidence.""""""""


.................. I tend to run away VERY QUICKLY.



storm

WarHoundR69

I bought 2 cards from them - World In Arms Airplanes Nos. 8 & 14. They described them as a 6 on their scale. They came back PSA6 & PSA7 respectively. The Airplanes No.14 in PSA7 is a 1/1 with none higher so I was very pleased when The card got graded. They never had anything else I was interested in.

felix76

I've only bought from them once. I too think they overgrade a lot of their cards. The card I bought said it was a 6 on their scale but the corner were horribly banged up.


Nice to see you had the strength to give them a neg. Congratulations for holding up your integrity.

baseballfanatic

Overgraded and PSA spamming. I get so ticked off when I click on their auctions and see who it is and what they are selling...

Ahmanfan

You know, a case of '75 topps is being busted on this site very very soon. I'm sure you can pick up a nm/m or better twins team low fairly cheaply.
John

Stone193

I just want to say Welcome!

mike

Southerncards

He already negged you once. Bid $1000, refuse to pay and take the second negative in stride!

Sets

Hey never did this before but what the hey; Order them here & I'll match his shipped price of 13.95, I'll guarentee your satisfaction or your money back. It's that simple.

f2tornado

<< <i>He already negged you once. Bid $1000, refuse to pay and take the second negative in stride! >>



I'm out $5 which isn't worth getting cute over but worth letting other collectors know about this potential scam. If CMS was smart he'd just put me on his block list as I've already done with him. All but one of my 7 negs are from sellers leaving retaliatory. I take those in stride but would definately not want too many too fast. I do have a trick for those though. When I get one I leave feedback for all my transactions and then when those get reciprocated that red blob gets pushed to the next page. Out of site, out of mind.

I've identified a couple eBay scams that I havn't noticed until recently. I wrote about these in eBay Guides: The non-refundable shipping I already discussed and Trading Card Scans and Scams: Buyer and Seller Tips. Gotta love Photoshop!

Estil

Oh yes, I too have been burned on poor shipping. I had not one, but TWO sellers send me a complete set I bought on Ebay (one of which was a 1982 Donruss set) and all they did was wrap the set box in brown paper with no protection of any kind. Needless to say, the sets were RUINED. On the 1982 set, I tried to send it back to the Post Office for an insurance claim and the stupid guy there tried to tell me I could just replace the last 60 or so cards that were especially damaged, but that of course would cost a lot more than the set itself would amount to. I'm sure I did get refunded and such in the end, but I just prefer to not have to go through all that returning hassle to begin with, you know what I mean? I guess the best advice is to find a few dealers who had the kind of stuff you're interested in that will ship the goods with TLC (cards are especially fragile to ship you know) and stick with only them whenever possible.

When I sell cards on Ebay, I always get them shipped from a local packages place via UPS Ground and they not only package your stuff professionally and at no extra charge, but UPS gives you free package tracking and free insurance (well, the first $100 of it anyway) and tend to take better care of their packages than the Post Office. If only all Ebay dealers did the same...

grote15

I understand that the cards didn't meet your standards (raw cards bought on ebay are usually disappointing to begin with unless you know and trust the seller) but he did give you a refund less shipping as his auction terms clearly stipulated so I'm not sure what your beef is? The shipping and handling is irrelevant; you bid understanding the cost involved and it seems petty to me to be haggling over a couple bucks here. It's not like he charged you $10 to ship the cards. The "recycled cardboard" you mentioned that he used to insulate the cards should be more than sufficient for a package of this kind. In the future, I'd suggest that you either buy PSA graded cards or at least ask for additional scans if you're considering buying from someone you don't know.

jskirwin

The '75 set is extremely condition sensitive. Looking at his scan I'd say that he clearly represented the cards as ExMt-NM.
You admit that some of the cards fall into that range. You then contact the seller who refunds your money - minus shipping. So, you're out $5.



If $5 is too much to swallow in this hobby, then you'd better find a cheaper one.

It makes you sound like a seriously "high-maintenance" buyer.

XanaduNow

While I fully admit that overpriced shipping charges is a virtual "slap in the face" I can't imagine that running a business where the sole goal is to scam $3/transaction off a buyer is the seller's intention. I rarely sell on eBay and when I do it's almost always for single graded cards. The shipping is easy enough, pop it into a small bubble mailer and send it out, but I would never go through all the trouble (going to the store to buy the bubble mailers, packing and addressing the items and then heading down to the PO) for $3 an item. My time -- and I would imagine the time of anyone -- is worth more than that.

I understand that you're upset over a transaction that didn't end the way you wanted it to but I can't see labeling this as a "scam."

Hope things work out better for you in the future!

Arthur

f2tornado

<< <i>The '75 set is extremely condition sensitive. Looking at his scan I'd say that he clearly represented the cards as ExMt-NM.
You admit that some of the cards fall into that range. You then contact the seller who refunds your money - minus shipping. So, you're out $5.



If $5 is too much to swallow in this hobby, then you'd better find a cheaper one.

It makes you sound like a seriously "high-maintenance" buyer. >>



I wish I made a scan of those cards before I sent them back so you would have a better indication of the condition. Perhaps you didn't fully read or comprehend what was stated in my initial post. What you see in the seller's scan looks good but when you see what wasn't in the scan you would know exactly what I'm talking about; fairly banged up corners, dents on the edges, 80-20 off-center cards, and I thought a couple had creasing. I already stated it's my fault for not requesting a better scan even if the seller has a million positives. I just don't think this makes a potential deceptive listing any more appropriate. Perhaps a couple cards out of the 18 actually fell into that 6 category. I already stated the seller abided completely by his spelled out terms. I agreed to them when clicking that bid icon so I fully undestand the consequences. I may me new in this forum but I've been buying and selling on eBay since 1996. I have several thousnad positive feebacks from buyers and sellers. I probably returned less than five lots during this time so I am certainly no "high maintanence buyer". If you feel as such, please add me to your block list. I'm really not very picky when buying these older cards but I'm not going sit tight when I get that shaft either.



<< <i>but he did give you a refund less shipping as his auction terms clearly stipulated so I'm not sure what your beef is? The shipping and handling is irrelevant; you bid understanding the cost involved and it seems petty to me to be haggling over a couple bucks here. It's not like he charged you $10 to ship the cards. >>



My beef is with what I believe is a deceptive selling practice resulting in small but additional profits for the seller. I'm out about $5 which would buy me almost three pounds of beef. No it's not fillet mignon but it's still some good grillin'. Yes, $5 is fairly petty. My intentions here were essentially to let other collectors know there are sellers out there pulling this stunt, intentionally deceptive or not. I doubt this is any kind of elaborate eBay scam but it is another way to leech money out of people's pockets with minimal risk. I could buy a bunch of vinatge Topps cards, put up several hundred lots with doctored scans, charge whatever non-refundable s/h and offer a buyer guarantee. Some will eat it and some will want money back. I would make the most with the former but still profit in the latter. Hey, my feedback speaks for itself. Buyers would bid if I went to the dark side.

I agree with all when stating graded cards are the best way to get the condition desired. I'm going to be making the transition from selling 100% raw to selling a lot more graded material. I don't like my team set cards in slabs so I will keep rolling the dice with older raw as I've actually had fair luck thus far. The case with CMS I described is rare for my buying experience. I've only had one other seller charge high shipping with overstated condition where I couldn't get money back. In that particular case I purchased a 1989 Upper Deck Griffey card stated NrMT-Mint and it had a small crease. No refund on anything from the seller but I relisted the card with the flaw described and actually made money on it! I've landed some very sharp raw modern rookie cards recently purchased with the intention of slabbing them. Slabs have their place, just not yet in my mid to late 70's Twins collection.

I still dare someone to take the CMS challenge and purchase that lot. I'll send the lucky winner several 1975 Topps Twins cards in similar or better condition for free. <sarcasm>A good deal as the seller and I will be sending you 7's, right?</sarcasm>The caviat is you must post a scan of all the cards here so we can see how cruddy they really are. Maybe you better not do it as you'll be out $5 when you return the cards.

jradke4

I had a similar problem with someone else. I left them a neutral feedback. Card came in a business size envelople inbetween and 8x11 piece of paper. I complained about there shipping price. In my feedback they say I cant read their description of shipping cost, which they say includes more than just postage. I replied back to the feedback saying I can read but you did nothing other than slap a stamp on the envelope.