<< <i>Looks like a Brazil counterstamp to me. 3Mark >>
It is Brazil, revaluing the coin as 960 reis. I don't have the exact dates here at work, but this c/s was used before 1810, when they decided to overstrike on the entire coin.
FYI, these are much more valuable than the overstruck coins, generally worth at least $150. Yours is an unusual example, with a counterstamp that's more worn than average on a better-preserved coin.
It's a Brazil counterstamp for the Minas Gerais "Province" (1/09/1809 law) valuating a 8 reales coin to 960 reis and it looks legit to me. This is the most common counterstamped coin, a Carlos IIII 8 Reales from the Potosi mint. The counterstamp its not in great shape and a visible date on the host coin would be nice but still a three figure coin, congratulations!
It looks like the same coin that's being offered in this Chinese auction. If so, then it's fairly likely that the coin and the countermark are fake. It was declared as such over on this thread on the CCF forum.
Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one. Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
<< <i>Yes the coin is listed in that auction. I was just curious about the counter stamp and you smart guys nailed it! Thanks... >>
Considering the source -- seller in China, private feedback -- now I realize it's probably a fake. What really sucks is that joker sold it for a premium price.
I'm not enough of an expert on 8R coins to know the host was phony, but the c/s looked good. Sapyx, I wonder if your friend on the CC Forum could come over and explain to us what to look for.
<< <i> I'm not enough of an expert on 8R coins to know the host was phony, but the c/s looked good. Sapyx, I wonder if your friend on the CC Forum could come over and explain to us what to look for. >>
I was not aware of the source, so I paid no attention to the host coin, as well. I am in no way an expert, but let me see if I can identify the signs : Obverse: shape of the mouth, lettering (jumping, different sizes), absense of denticles without an appearance of an off-center strike ... Reverse: thin, wide-spaced letters, "8" is off in "8R", the right side of the crown looks wrong (gems)...
I have only been focusing on these in the last 6 months, so feel free to correct me if i'm wrong
- There are several counterstamp sub-types. - This "wide" counterstamp is known. - The Heritage coin is Peruvian not Bolivian (a different die for sure). - In particular the smaller "s" after the "U" in Carolus seems to be a Potosi characteristic. - Some differences can be explained by different wear/grade on the host coin. - The coin doesn't look "cast" to me. - If they could make a fake of this quality why not fake a Mexico mint host coin which is much scarcer?
On the other hand, its a seller from China, i would say that outweighs all the arguments i've just made for the coin authenticity.
The final price stunned me, it's almost twice the usual price for these coins (Potosi host), i can guess that maybe a couple of Brazilian/Portuguese guys that don't know how to identify mints rose the final price to that level.
<< <i>Jose thanks for your feedback! You need to post more often with all that info you have in your head.... >>
I'm actually at home at this hour (GMT) and have some bibliography (and google/ebay...
Reading the post at CCF, there are some problems: - Concave counterstamps exist: see A. Gomes Ref. JR 116.01 in page 515 (4th Edition) - The cross and the longitude lines are sometimes irregular: see Ref. JR 115.01 in the same book/page and anyone with contemporary Brazilian silver/bronze coins knows the usual quality of the engravers work.
a039
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is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
<< <i>Looks like a Brazil counterstamp to me. 3Mark >>
It is Brazil, revaluing the coin as 960 reis. I don't have the exact dates here at work, but this c/s was used before 1810, when they decided to overstrike on the entire coin.
FYI, these are much more valuable than the overstruck coins, generally worth at least $150. Yours is an unusual example, with a counterstamp that's more worn than average on a better-preserved coin.
Looks to be the same as in this Heritage auction:
Link
Nice find! I always keep an eye out for counterstamped Spanish colonials.
8 Reales Madness Collection
This is the most common counterstamped coin, a Carlos IIII 8 Reales from the Potosi mint. The counterstamp its not in great shape and a visible date on the host coin would be nice but still a three figure coin, congratulations!
Jose
8 Reales Madness Collection
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
<< <i>Yes the coin is listed in that auction. I was just curious about the counter stamp and you smart guys nailed it! Thanks... >>
Considering the source -- seller in China, private feedback -- now I realize it's probably a fake. What really sucks is that joker sold it for a premium price.
I'm not enough of an expert on 8R coins to know the host was phony, but the c/s looked good. Sapyx, I wonder if your friend on the CC Forum could come over and explain to us what to look for.
<< <i>
I'm not enough of an expert on 8R coins to know the host was phony, but the c/s looked good. Sapyx, I wonder if your friend on the CC Forum could come over and explain to us what to look for.
>>
I was not aware of the source, so I paid no attention to the host coin, as well. I am in no way an expert, but let me see if I can identify the signs : Obverse: shape of the mouth, lettering (jumping, different sizes), absense of denticles without an appearance of an off-center strike ... Reverse: thin, wide-spaced letters, "8" is off in "8R", the right side of the crown looks wrong (gems)...
I have only been focusing on these in the last 6 months, so feel free to correct me if i'm wrong
~Roman
8 Reales Madness Collection
There's a pic of the eBay and Heritage coins side by side here...
PICTURE
ANA#R216999
WINS#482
EAC#5255
CONECA#N-3902
Coin Community Forum
I get :
<< <i>Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a000d'
Type mismatch: '[string: "52, 10.35.53.7"]'
/forum/inc_ipgate.asp, line 371 >>
8 Reales Madness Collection
- There are several counterstamp sub-types.
- This "wide" counterstamp is known.
- The Heritage coin is Peruvian not Bolivian (a different die for sure).
- In particular the smaller "s" after the "U" in Carolus seems to be a Potosi characteristic.
- Some differences can be explained by different wear/grade on the host coin.
- The coin doesn't look "cast" to me.
- If they could make a fake of this quality why not fake a Mexico mint host coin which is much scarcer?
On the other hand, its a seller from China, i would say that outweighs all the arguments i've just made for the coin authenticity.
The final price stunned me, it's almost twice the usual price for these coins (Potosi host), i can guess that maybe a couple of Brazilian/Portuguese guys that don't know how to identify mints rose the final price to that level.
Jose
<< <i>Jose thanks for your feedback! You need to post more often with all that info you have in your head.... >>
I'm actually at home at this hour (GMT) and have some bibliography (and google/ebay...
Reading the post at CCF, there are some problems:
- Concave counterstamps exist: see A. Gomes Ref. JR 116.01 in page 515 (4th Edition)
- The cross and the longitude lines are sometimes irregular: see Ref. JR 115.01 in the same book/page and anyone with contemporary Brazilian silver/bronze coins knows the usual quality of the engravers work.
Maybe some more examples can be found at:
http://www.numismaonline.com auction lists, i would search myself but i'm on dialup until Monday...
If someone want to waste some time checking past auctions here's the direct download links:
http://www.numismaonline.com/pdf/leilao_67.pdf
http://www.numismaonline.com/pdf/leilao_66.pdf
http://www.numismaonline.com/pdf/leilao_65.pdf
http://www.numismaonline.com/pdf/leilao_64.pdf
http://www.numismaonline.com/pdf/leilao_63.pdf
...and i think older ones are still available by simply replacing the last two digits on the link.
- The date is almost completely covered by the counterstamp but i don't think its 1807...
The problem is the coin's provenance which is very, very suspicious to me, so, it's important to figure out the fake telltale signs with accuracy.
Actually the only thing that i can't find similar to any other Potosian 8 Reales found on the net is the small "a" in Carolus.
?????
Jose