Options
saved
ss350camaro
Posts: 4,529
Newmismatist
Collector
Posts: 1646
Joined: Dec 2002
Wednesday September 27, 2006 7:00 AM
<< And.. a few people have accused me that I am taking a cheap shot at Laura and that I should have handled this with a PM. Are they thinking I would do that because her business partner TDN said things on the NGC forum like:
"The coin in question in 'Peacegate' wasn't 'good AT' by any stretch of the imagination. And the majority of collectors posted 'nice coin' before it was revealed who 'did' it. And the dealer in question is an attorney by trade and dabbles in coins as a sideline. Now there's some long term expertise ... uh, huh."
C'mon, i would never give someone a dose of medicine for any medicine I've taken. I would never be an opportunist like that.
Well, since we're quoting me, let's quote my own PM to you after you threatened me with legal action:
"Actionable? I suppose that anything is actionable.
As an attorney, how many examples of you listing AT coins for sale do you suppose I would need to show enough of a trend to make the judge believe I was stating the truth?
1) xxxxxx xxxxxxx [an ex NGC grader] knows exactly the problem with the 20 cent piece. He agrees it's a bad coin and you never should have bought it
2) You bought a raw Morgan and listed it on ebay with a huge price on it ... and then later pulled it when you were convinced was AT
3) You sold an NGC certified Peace dollar to a collector here on the boards ... and issued a refund when it was determined the coin was AT
4) You bought and listed for sale the vibrantly toned Peace Dollar certified by NGC ... and later pulled it when it was determined the coin was AT.
5) You have bought and sold many coins over the past few years on ebay that I and others feel are not naturally toned
6) You have a coin on your website right now that I and others feel is not naturally toned. I even know the conduit the coin came out of ... and I've seen it in person.
The quotes you've listed are nothing. In light of the FACTS, they're right on. If you want to dance, we can dance. I've consistently pulled my punches with you because I like you and I will continue to do so because the last thing the industry needs is more controversy. But not if you continue to push it." >>
Bruce and Adrian: Looks like a school yard brawl here. I'm sure it will be good entertainment for the Hoi poli here, but at the end of the day it will do little good for either of you.
Bruce: You should carefully read the comments made by the person that you fund in this business relative to this:
Thursday September 02, 2004 10:55 PM
pursuitofliberty-you are close to being correct. Without actually seeing the coins it is impossible to tell.
The first coin looks like the colors have been enhanced. That won't stop the grading services from slabbing it-because when it came through it probably was undetcable.
Even if the coin is AT, the rule of thumb is, if its that good and its slabbed, buy it!
-------------------------
Laura Sperber
Looks like that is exactly what was done by Anaconda. But when customers didn't like the coin, or if it was determines that they were not right, like the infamous Peace dollar, it took the coin off the market and got NGC to remove that coin from the marketplace.
Contrast what Adrian did with what Lauara did in a similar instance:
Laura is TRUE: "I bought some of the most outrageous AT commems there were." then an EXPERT - a PROFESSIONAL Numismatist, as Laura claims to be either WOULD KNOW, or SHOULD KNOW that they were buying AT coins. Unfortunately it gets worse from there. Does she contact PCGS to take them off the market?? Does she do anything to take them OFF THE MARKET?? No, she does NOT - here's exactly what she did:
<< At the time I figured hey, I'll wholesale them, after all PCGS had graded them. >>
Of course the dealers she wholesales them to certainly planned on selling them in the stream of commerce to unsuspecting collectors - This from one of the founders of the "Coin Posse" (someone check out the dates of the coin Posse threads please - which I think may be contemporaneous with the sale of the AT Comms).
<< Legend does NOT knowingly sell AT coins to its customers. >>
Certainly NOT - she "wholesales" them to other dealers so that they can! (and then says hey I have no obligation to disclose the fact that they are "the most outrageous AT commems". Nope when Laura Sperber sells AT coins, it's buyer beware!
<< When dealers do wholesale business with other dealers I don;t believe they need to offer their opinions or disclose anything, especially if the coins are already PCGS/NGC holdered. The only instance I can think of as an exception would be if the coin or holder was not genuine, otherwise I believe dealer to dealer wholesale business is pretty much every man for himself. >>
Somehow, I think there seems to be a doubole standard on your side of the equation, which you are now defending by engaging in this "you bought such and such" and they were bad. I fail to see how you can assert that and defend Laura's prior ADMITTED actions in the way she dealt with those "outrageous AT commems" (HER words). Is there a special standard tjhat applies to dealers who tell us that that have bought $250,000,000 worth of coins?
And when Laura is questioned on this everyone who has the audacity to question her integrity is called bozos, Monkeys, etc.
Seems to be a double standard here.
0
Comments
Newmismatist
Collector
Posts: 1648
Joined: Dec 2002
Wednesday September 27, 2006 7:59 AM (NEW!)
<< And in the meantime, since Laura isn't here to bait, Adrian can go off and do real biz.... >>
Bruce the games began several posts ago and you seem to be a particpient - (Indeed they may have begun several years ago with Laura's "Wannabe threads").
The difficulty here for me (and perhaps others) is this: We have a dealer who rudely and crudely attacks others, calls them names, and touts her integrity and how she is opnly concerned for the good od the hobby. She does so by telling us how many millions she spends and that she has built great collections. Because of that she asserts some type of "immunity" from anyone who question her business practices. Then she tells us that in the past, when confrontred with "Outrageous AT comms" she tells all of us that her method of dealing with those PCGS slabbed coins was to PUT THEM BACK INTO THE COIN MARKETPLACE, and she sees no reason to even disclose that they were "Outrageous AT comms" to the dealers that she "wholesaled" them to. As I asked before, who did she think the dealers she wholesaled them to were going to sell those coins to? BTW, as I remember she later referenced the dealers to whom she sold those AT coins as "Crackout" dealers. As if that therefore justifies putting those coins back into the Marketplace. Does she mean that it's OK to screw the dealers that she sold them to because they are Crackout specialists? Or did she mean that it's therefore OK for THEM to sell those outragous AT coins to the unsuspecting public?
Is this a proper business practice? Is it one that you feel is acceptable for a major coin dealer to whom you provide financial backing?
Perhaps more importantly, is there a double standard here that you are unwilling to address?
You are chaqllanging Adrian for his business practices, yet you defend the dealer that you provide financial backingas to as to how she has (BY HER OWN WORDS) conducted business, which is done in a manner that is contrary to her claimed ethics. Further, what she has admittedly done is exactly what she condemns others for. Don't you find this to be hypocritcal, if not unethical?
I'm sorry to say, but you are a participient in these games and you seem to be defending the indefensible. JMHO
(Or perhaps perople in glass houses shouldn't throw stones? )
Newmismatist
Collector
Posts: 1650
Joined: Dec 2002
Wednesday September 27, 2006 3:37 PM (NEW!)
<< As far as wholesaling a group of wildly toned commems to crackout artists ... well, that does seem like the actions of an immature dealer who didn't think the consequences through. But since it happened almost two decades ago, long before I invested >>
Bruce is “an immature dealer who didn't think the consequences through” a euphemistic way of saying “ethically challenged”? Also thanks for clarifying when this occurred. If they are the same ones we discussed at a TCCS meeting not too long ago, they were initially done in the late 80s/early 90s. Laura failed to mention the time frame and it's good that you have clarified when she did this.
When she said “I would hope that the damn grading services would stop grading all AT coins” followed by “at this point in time” (a present tense comment) - I thought that this incident was slightly more contemporary than “two decades ago”. Here’s her original post where she mentioned those AT commems that she purchased "a few years ago":
Sunday September 24, 2006 7:01 PM (NEW!)
There is a saying among dealers that holds true- "we'll pay for good work".
A few years ago I bought some of the most outrageous AT commems there were. They were fresh out of the oven apparently and werein PCGS holders. I can't tell you how many dealers actually fought over them-including the best of the best bigshots. Each time (save for maybe one rare instance) PCGS graded the coins for everyone. Some even got upgraded (anyone remember that funky Sesqui about 10 years ago??).
My point, everyone has their own opinion on AT toning. At the time I figured hey, I'll wholesale them, after all PCGS had graded them. Back then they were definately "net"grading coins like that. Until a few coins turned, the guy who created the magic coins only got better. In the end, it was hard to distinguish what was AT and what was not.
I would hope that the damn grading services would stop grading all AT coins. Even if they aren't sure, I think at this point in time they'd be btter of NOT grading the coins. You have to wonder, are the services really the ones who are damaging the hobby and lnding fuel to this debate?
-------------------------
Laura Sperber
Perhaps, rather than discussing her prior purchase of "utrageous AT Commems", she might have been better off letting that "sleeping dog" lie undisturbed. But I find her past business practices very informative, and perhaps a bit "questionable" for one who is a founding member of the "coin posse" - an organization determined to remove AT coins from the marketplace. Also interesting that she tells us that dealers will “pay for good work”, which I presume in the context of her post means a “good AT job”.
Note: At several of our TCCS meetings we've discussed those AT commems - Larry Shepard pointed out the characteristics of those coins, and they still re-appear from time to time in the marketplace and unknowledgeable collectors get stuck with them - The bottom line is that it's unfortunate that they didn't get taken off the market when they were initially determined to be AT, and sadly Laura has acknowledged her participation in their continued distribution in the marketplace.
<< - and I know her attitude now regarding the matter - I'll just have to forgive her for it. Just like I didn't say anything about Adrian the first time he attempted to sell an AT coin.... or the second time he attempted to sell an AT coin. Yeah, I slipped the third time.... >>
Bruce I presume that the forgiveness is for the past transgressions? As for the "AT" coins you reference in the same sentence, would those "AT" coins happen to have been in slabs? IF yes, then just like those "Outrageous AT Commems" that Laura referenced, the TPGS felt that they were NOT AT when they slabbed them. And as I recall Laura's words:
<< Thursday September 02, 2004 10:55 PM
Even if the coin is AT, the rule of thumb is, if its that good and its slabbed, buy it!
-------------------------
Laura Sperber >>
That was NOT said "almost two decades ago", that was said TWO YEARS ago, when you were (and I assume still are) an active financial backer - and that goes to the very issue that you raise with Anaconda: Buying slabbed coins that some question and which may be AT.
Laura's "Rule of thumb" seems to be exactly what you are questioning Adrian about: Buying coins that are slabbed by PCGS and NGC that some believe to be AT. Perhaps Adrian was merely following her expert wisdom - You know she's not a "Wannabe", she's an expert who's paid her dues, sold $250,000,000 of coins, etc. and if dealers can't take the sterling advice of experts like Laura, who can they rely on? I'm surprised that you are not complimenting Adrian for following the Sperber: "Rule of Thumb": Even if the coin is AT, if it's that good and it's slabbed, buy it!
But there is a significant difference: When Adrian found out that a coin he was offering for sale was AT, he immediately got it off the market and out of the slab, unlike Laura, who in similar circumstances “wholesaled” them to the “Crackout” guys (no disclosure necessary! )
Is there one standard for Laura and another for Adrian?
Why would Laura post a "rule of thumb" as quoted above?
How does that help the collecting public and dealers who may be less knowledgeable than Laura?
And why do you question Adrian and defend Laura for what certainly appears to be the very same thing?
Bear in mind, she repeatedly tells us less knowledgeable, "Monkeys and Bozos" who can’t read, this:
<< And FYI: I do very much know how AT coins do come (unlike some obvious others here). >>
and this
<<Considering I have handled some of the finest colored coins on earth, and know AT as well as anyone >>
Is Laura's standard something of a moving target? - like "situational ethics" or the "end justifies the means"? And that standard from someone who is a founding member of the coins posse who is determined to get AT coins off the market?
The more you question Adrian for doing what Laura says is an acceptable practice - (Even if the coin is AT, the rule of thumb is, if its that good and its slabbed, buy it!) - the more I see a hypocritical double standard.
And this final thought - (which is what this thread was about) - that 1901 Proof Morgan: Why is Laura SO DEFENSIVE about that 1901 Proof that Adrian posted at the begining of this thread? She repeatedly says Adrian (or others) have called her a "LIER" - all that was done was to show the before images and the after images with the attendant verbal descriptions - and the VERBAL descriptions clearly describe two very different coins. Although Laura seems to think that most of us here can't read, NO ONE CALLED HER A LIER in this thread - it's just not there - it's as though she wanted to create a "Strawman Argument" ie "This is about Adrian disparaging me" and not about why the coin looks different and why it is described differently. I am very familiar with what Proof Morgans look like when they are toned - I have collected proof Morgans - I put together a complete set (with at least 15 duplicates when I upgraded to nicer examples), and I I've never seen a Proof Morgan with that dramatic a color change just from the removal of surface contamination or even lacquer - If that were my coin and I gave it to someone for lacquer removal and it came back looking like that, I'd be asking someone a lot of questions. The first of which would be "What happened to my Coin?"
For Mark Feld: Sorry to be "fanning, not dousing the flames", but the other cliche' that comes to mind is calling a "spade a spade"