Carol, please look - PSA flips being copied - I gotta admit, I almost fell for this scam . . .

detroitfan2

It seemed like a reasonable starting bid for this 53 Bowman Mathews.

Interesting flip, wouldn't you say. Check out his other auctions, there's plenty more where that came from.

jimq112

that's pretty close to copyright/trademark infringement.

Caricon

He does the same with the coins he sells. Just places the coins over the top of slabs or just prints a slab
and says he is the same condition.

kingraider75

PSA cert verification says the card is a 1986 Donruss Rookies Barry Bonds 8

MorrellMan

What a total mf'er - every auction says:
CARD IS ACTUALLY BETTER LOOKING THAN PICTURE....even the "gem mint 10"
....and then he lists PSA's grading standards.
Carol - you gotta problem with this guy?

bri2327

Yes.....Carol...PLEASE look into this if you read this post.

The guy is clearly trying to defraud people by making flips close to PSA's...by using serial numbers close to PSA's, and directly, WORD for WORD copying PSA's grading standards. I would say that is more than enough to pursue this matter. We need to get rid of these guys permenantly for the good of the collecting community as well as uphold the reputation of PSA.

helionaut

That flip is not even close. White borders, no "PSA" in the top red area, wrong font, and the alignment of everything is off. Even the slab is bad.

coincopwife

While I agree that Carol and Co. should know about this guy ... has anyone reported him to Ebay yet?

bri2327

<< <i>While I agree that Carol and Co. should know about this guy ... has anyone reported him to Ebay yet? >>



I did. I also warned the seller about copying PSA's words. He is one of the true dopes you will ever find on ebay. I have received several emails in return telling me how he is reporting me to ebay and so on. I explained how he should be more worried about his own violations than anything else.

In the end ebay will most likely do what they usually do...nothing.

coincopwife

<< <i>

<< <i>While I agree that Carol and Co. should know about this guy ... has anyone reported him to Ebay yet? >>



I did. I also warned the seller about copying PSA's words. He is one of the true dopes you will ever find on ebay. I have received several emails in return telling me how he is reporting me to ebay and so on. I explained how he should be more worried about his own violations than anything else.

In the end ebay will most likely do what they usually do...nothing. >>


It would be nice if one could believe that Ebay would take it a little more seriously since they have been notified, as was PSA, about very clear fraud. If they do nothing, they could be in for a fair bit of trouble ... if somebody wanted to push the issue.

That guy could also be looking at criminal charges, if he's not careful.

WinPitcher

Hmmmmmmmm............to play devils advocate on this one, I see that this guy is just being creative. (please do not knock my head off) The guy in his title does not say psa 6 . Psa does not own the color red. what I do find offensive is that he uses Psa's standards in his description. He is no different then any other basement slabber.

his flip does not say PSA. yes it is red

his cert number does not match to any other 53 mathews

I do not see the problem that many of you do.

Could some unknowing beginner get taken here? perhaps. due diligence.

The fact that he uses Psa's standards is what pushes this guy over the edge to slime ball.

his feedback, while not great does not have any complaints regarding these flips.


Steve

Axtell

WP-

It's blatant trademark infringment. Further, his copying, word for word, the grading standards furthers the infringement. Why put a cert number there if he doesn't have a database to match it to? Hell, it says "PSA Card Grading Standards" in the auction!

And you don't see a problem?

SportsModerator2

Thanks Everyone,

I sent this up the totem pole for futher investigation.

Carol

mikeschmidt

<< <i>Thanks Everyone,

I sent this up the totem pole for futher investigation.

Carol >>



Carol - I thought you were Chief Wiggums.

Courvoisier

hmm, that seller is not taking care of the stable. Those corners are getting pimp slapped.

WinPitcher

Axtell............
since you feel the need to follow me around I suggest you read my post again, then look at the auction. The flip does not say PSA on it. I mentioned that I found it sleazy that he used Psa's grading standards. Are you a copyright lawyer?

How exactly is he infringing on PSA's copyright? by creating a red cert? how do you know he does not have a database for the flips he creates?

Please, next time before you dribble some comment know what you are talking about.

SD

SportsModerator2

<< <i>

<< <i>Thanks Everyone,

I sent this up the totem pole for futher investigation.

Carol >>



Carol - I thought you were Chief Wiggums. >>



I'm sure there are those that would agree with that statement.

zef204

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Thanks Everyone,

I sent this up the totem pole for futher investigation.

Carol >>



Carol - I thought you were Chief Wiggums. >>



I'm sure there are those that would agree with that statement. >>

Axtell

<< <i>Axtell............
since you feel the need to follow me around I suggest you read my post again, then look at the auction. The flip does not say PSA on it. I mentioned that I found it sleazy that he used Psa's grading standards. Are you a copyright lawyer? >>



Flip doesn't say PSA, but it's an exact copy otherwise, and he uses the 'PSA' in his auction. Why are you defending this guy?



<< <i>How exactly is he infringing on PSA's copyright? by creating a red cert? how do you know he does not have a database for the flips he creates? >>



No mention of a database to verify the cert. Again, why are you defending this scam artist?



<< <i>Please, next time before you dribble some comment know what you are talking about.

SD >>



I do know a rat when I see one. And I see one here...must be a friend of yours, hmm WP?

baseballfanatic

I agree with WP on this one. For every auction you take down like this, 20 more pop up. A buyer has got to educate himself with what he is buying. Is it wrong to advertise like this? Of course it is. Are there 100,000 auctions like this with 52 Mantles and T206 Wagners and similar scams? You betcha. Where ever there is money to be made, people will find a way to scam it. Plain and simple........

julen23

wow, those are some pretty sweet "fake slabbed" cards.

i wonder if he made them from scratch, along w/ the slabs?

Julen

NYYDM23

What a loser. He was asked who the card was graded by and for a scan of the back. Here is his reply:

Card is an original card and in great condition. This was graded by another individual according to the guidelines listed. You will be happy with this card.

Tabe

<< <i>Axtell............
since you feel the need to follow me around I suggest you read my post again, then look at the auction. The flip does not say PSA on it. I mentioned that I found it sleazy that he used Psa's grading standards. Are you a copyright lawyer?

How exactly is he infringing on PSA's copyright? by creating a red cert? how do you know he does not have a database for the flips he creates?

Please, next time before you dribble some comment know what you are talking about.

SD >>


WP,

You seem to be misinformed on what constitutes trademark infringement and copyright violations. All that's necessary is that the seller (in this case) make their item close enough to create confusion in the marketplace. Clearly, that's what this seller is doing - quoting PSA's grading standards, copying the flip (minus the "PSA"), using the same numbering system, etc. Such intentional marketplace confusion is a violation and can get the purveyor in serious hot water.

Tabe

WinPitcher

Tabe with all due respect I did not say that what guy was doing was ok, I simply was playing devils advocate. If you took the time to read my original post on the matter you will see that I called the guy a sleaze. I simply can not say that he is infringing on anything just cuz he used a red cert. Is he a sleaze? absolutley. Is he just inside of the law, possibly. That was my only sentiment regarding this issue.

be assured I am not misinformed.


edited to add: fwiw 358 people looked at the item and NO ONE bought his malarky. I guess his lame attempt at copying PSA did not work.

Steve

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

I once heard that you can copy someones product but it has to be 25% different. Thats how all those "spoof" shirts of products and "wacky packages" allow to exist. True ? Anyone know?

JESSEJAMES

Just one question... why didnt you email or call PSA directly, instead of posting it on these message boards? i know carol saw this, but why the indirect approach?

riccaboni

Wacky Packages and spoofs are protected under the 1st Amendment, most notably in the Larry Flint case; however, most spoofs are cleared with the original copywrite owner out of courtesy.

-Ian

1989FleerBillRipkencollector

<< <i>Wacky Packages and spoofs are protected under the 1st Amendment, most notably in the Larry Flint case; however, most spoofs are cleared with the original copywrite owner out of courtesy.

-Ian >>



Thanks,Donovan

jimq112

<< <i>Just one question... why didnt you email or call PSA directly, instead of posting it on these message boards? i know carol saw this, but why the indirect approach? >>



I emailed last nite and got the autoreply, but no response yet. I think he listed it here to warn us and I appreciate it. Sometimes I catch an auction at the end and in a hurry I might miss that it wasn't a psa label.

Tabe

<< <i>Tabe with all due respect I did not say that what guy was doing was ok, >>


Nor did I imply that you did.



<< <i> I simply was playing devils advocate. >>


Which I recognized.



<< <i>If you took the time to read my original post on the matter you will see that I called the guy a sleaze. >>


Which has nothing to do with my post.



<< <i>I simply can not say that he is infringing on anything just cuz he used a red cert. >>


That's why I said you were misinformed/confused. He did more than just use a red cert. He intentionally created marketplace confusion for all of the reasons I stated. That's why he's infringing.



<< <i> be assured I am not misinformed. >>


OK, I'm assured.

Tabe

lawnmowerman

<< <i>Just one question... why didnt you email or call PSA directly, instead of posting it on these message boards? i know carol saw this, but why the indirect approach? >>



I am sure Tom did. He was just letting his friends know as well. Plus if more people on the board responded and cared (which seems to be the case) about sellers such as this, psa would be more apt to take stuff like this more seriously.

Matt

detroitfan2

<<Just one question... why didnt you email or call PSA directly, instead of posting it on these message boards? i know carol saw this, but why the indirect approach? >>

Hi Jesse,

To be completely honest, I initially approached this post from a "scam" perspective as opposed to a PSA infringement perspective. My original title was "I gotta admit, I almost fell for this scam . . . ". After a few replies mentioning Carol, I thought I'd put her name into the title, figuring she was more likely to see it that way. I kind of did that in a hurry before I headed to work. Now that I think about it, I should have contacted PSA directly as well as posted here.

I think most people would not fall for the scam with the 9's and 10's, because the pricing was not in line with high end cards from that era. But for the mid-grades (like the Mathews 6), the price was more in range and I almost didn't give it a second thought. Plus, it was my double secret ebay search that helps me find mis-listed graded cards (and hopefully a good bargain) that detected these cards in the first place.

-Tom (detroitfan2)

WinPitcher

OK, I'm assured.

Great, we finally agree.

Steve

Axtell

WP-

As has been clearly pointed out here, this guy is doing much more than, as you simply put it, 'using a red cert'.

He's using PSA's name in his auction, copying their guidelines, and has created an exact duplicate of their flip. That alone constitutes copyright infringement.

Why are you defending this guy?

WinPitcher

Axtell I never defended the guy. I pointed out everything that you just mentioned. I did not simply say he only used a red cert. my point, which obviously was lost on you, and some others was that i felt that he was just inside of the law. 338 people looked at his auction and he fooled no one.

please go back and re read my very first post and if needed read it a few times, hopefully then you will grasp what I was saying.

If that is a problem I'll simplfy it for you here.

I am not defending this guy.

he is a slease ball

is he trying to make his cards appear that they are from PSA? YES

is what he is doing against the law? I do not know and IMO I feel that he is not.

ok?


Steve

MorrellMan

Let's back off Steve and look at the issue. We're not lawyers here and clearly the guy is innocent until proven guilty. I think the litmus test is this: could the guy stand up in court, given the way he presents his auction, with a slab that resembles PSA and no other info other than PSA's printed grading standards (which is probably copyrighted as well) and say that he wasn't trying to mislead? I doubt it. But someone else may not. Steve's not the problem here, nor are any of us. The problem is this jerk off seller who's trying to scam a sale.

MorrellMan

....based, I might add, on PSA's credibility and reputation in the marketplace. You be the judge.