Has anyone ever used a restoration service???
Mrcardsniper
Posts: 185 ✭✭
I was at a card show over the weekend in the metro Detroit area. Spoke with a dealer who carelessly told me he used a comic book restoration company to repair some expensive cards he owed. He did'nt show me any samples. I asked what type of repairs could be preformed. He talked about a well centered 1954 Mantle in the VG range that was improved to the NR/MT range. The cost was around $75-$100 per hour to repair certain types of problems. Creases, Wax stains, Worn corners, Stains... ETC. This has made me think how would you know at a show if a card has been altered? I allways look at the card for trimming using other cards for reference. But how about a wax stains removed, crease cards uncreased or corners restored. I could buy a card send it in for grading and then find out the card that was altered. Now how do we protect our selfs from this type of fraud. I'm not a comic book collector but how do those collectors deal with type of situation?
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Comments
You can restore a car, a house and even furniture. I would say most aren't interested in a restored card. My 2¢.
Ryan
The other dealer looked at it...says "yah, but with a little magic it should be a 9.5 or a 10"
Let him do the magic...I'll stick with the $40 sure money!!
To each their own...I wouldn't do it.
Like others mentioned, restoration is a common and accepted practice with comics. It is NOT with cards. When you buy a restored comic, you know what you are getting, and there is a market for them, with cards there isnt.
I wouldnt even condone having one altered for the sake of keeping it in your collection forever. Even if that is true, and you have no plans on ever selling, it gives the guy restoring the card $$ and keeps his business afloat, enabling the scam artist to find someone to do his work. Dont give in, dont give them business and they will hopefully close up shop, never to be around to do the devils work for someone else.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>my future father in law was burned in the early 90's...he bought two perfect 52 Mantles ( he has more than a few, Im just mentioning these two in particular ) that were " restored " by some dirtbag. He paid 20K each for them, only to find out a couple of years ago when he tried to have them PSA graded. Sure, they are still real, but altered. It is reasons like this that PSA exists, and I for one love that they are around and able to sniff out the garbage.
Like others mentioned, restoration is a common and accepted practice with comics. It is NOT with cards. When you buy a restored comic, you know what you are getting, and there is a market for them, with cards there isnt.
I wouldnt even condone having one altered for the sake of keeping it in your collection forever. Even if that is true, and you have no plans on ever selling, it gives the guy restoring the card $$ and keeps his business afloat, enabling the scam artist to find someone to do his work. Dont give in, dont give them business and they will hopefully close up shop, never to be around to do the devils work for someone else. >>
But here's a curious question: If companies like PSA weren't around to spot these restorations, would your father in law have taken a $20K hit on those two cards? In other words, if nobody can tell that they're restored, would anyone care?
<< <i>
<< <i>my future father in law was burned in the early 90's...he bought two perfect 52 Mantles ( he has more than a few, Im just mentioning these two in particular ) that were " restored " by some dirtbag. He paid 20K each for them, only to find out a couple of years ago when he tried to have them PSA graded. Sure, they are still real, but altered. It is reasons like this that PSA exists, and I for one love that they are around and able to sniff out the garbage.
Like others mentioned, restoration is a common and accepted practice with comics. It is NOT with cards. When you buy a restored comic, you know what you are getting, and there is a market for them, with cards there isnt.
I wouldnt even condone having one altered for the sake of keeping it in your collection forever. Even if that is true, and you have no plans on ever selling, it gives the guy restoring the card $$ and keeps his business afloat, enabling the scam artist to find someone to do his work. Dont give in, dont give them business and they will hopefully close up shop, never to be around to do the devils work for someone else. >>
But here's a curious question: If companies like PSA weren't around to spot these restorations, would your father in law have taken a $20K hit on those two cards? In other words, if nobody can tell that they're restored, would anyone care? >>
Eventually someone with a trained eye would have noticed. 3 or 4 months after my fiance and her met he showed me the cards, and I could tell right away that one of them had been bleached, and the corners more than likely pressed.
I hear what you are saying Boo, but I dont think it makes it better, or right even if someone doesnt ever find out. Its the principle of it, and I think you know that. I am fairly certain you were just playing devils advocate with your post, and i am sure you can understand what I was saying too.
Just think, if your wife or significant other was cheating on you, and you never found out, would that make it better ? Wouldnt you, when all is said and done, rather know than not ?
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>my future father in law was burned in the early 90's...he bought two perfect 52 Mantles ( he has more than a few, Im just mentioning these two in particular ) that were " restored " by some dirtbag. He paid 20K each for them, only to find out a couple of years ago when he tried to have them PSA graded. Sure, they are still real, but altered. It is reasons like this that PSA exists, and I for one love that they are around and able to sniff out the garbage.
Like others mentioned, restoration is a common and accepted practice with comics. It is NOT with cards. When you buy a restored comic, you know what you are getting, and there is a market for them, with cards there isnt.
I wouldnt even condone having one altered for the sake of keeping it in your collection forever. Even if that is true, and you have no plans on ever selling, it gives the guy restoring the card $$ and keeps his business afloat, enabling the scam artist to find someone to do his work. Dont give in, dont give them business and they will hopefully close up shop, never to be around to do the devils work for someone else. >>
But here's a curious question: If companies like PSA weren't around to spot these restorations, would your father in law have taken a $20K hit on those two cards? In other words, if nobody can tell that they're restored, would anyone care? >>
Eventually someone with a trained eye would have noticed. 3 or 4 months after my fiance and her met he showed me the cards, and I could tell right away that one of them had been bleached, and the corners more than likely pressed.
I hear what you are saying Boo, but I dont think it makes it better, or right even if someone doesnt ever find out. Its the principle of it, and I think you know that. I am fairly certain you were just playing devils advocate with your post, and i am sure you can understand what I was saying too.
Just think, if your wife or significant other was cheating on you, and you never found out, would that make it better ? Wouldnt you, when all is said and done, rather know than not ? >>
No no no, I totally agree with you. Just posing what I think is an interesting question, is all, although I agree with you on the answers.
One of the small perversities surrounding a service like PSA's is that they can usually tell you with a high degree of accuracy if a card HAS been altered, but can't tell you with that same accuracy that a card HASN'T been altered. That may sound at first blush like a simple issue of semantics, although I think it's actually quite a bit more interesting than that.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>my future father in law was burned in the early 90's...he bought two perfect 52 Mantles ( he has more than a few, Im just mentioning these two in particular ) that were " restored " by some dirtbag. He paid 20K each for them, only to find out a couple of years ago when he tried to have them PSA graded. Sure, they are still real, but altered. It is reasons like this that PSA exists, and I for one love that they are around and able to sniff out the garbage.
Like others mentioned, restoration is a common and accepted practice with comics. It is NOT with cards. When you buy a restored comic, you know what you are getting, and there is a market for them, with cards there isnt.
I wouldnt even condone having one altered for the sake of keeping it in your collection forever. Even if that is true, and you have no plans on ever selling, it gives the guy restoring the card $$ and keeps his business afloat, enabling the scam artist to find someone to do his work. Dont give in, dont give them business and they will hopefully close up shop, never to be around to do the devils work for someone else. >>
But here's a curious question: If companies like PSA weren't around to spot these restorations, would your father in law have taken a $20K hit on those two cards? In other words, if nobody can tell that they're restored, would anyone care? >>
Eventually someone with a trained eye would have noticed. 3 or 4 months after my fiance and her met he showed me the cards, and I could tell right away that one of them had been bleached, and the corners more than likely pressed.
I hear what you are saying Boo, but I dont think it makes it better, or right even if someone doesnt ever find out. Its the principle of it, and I think you know that. I am fairly certain you were just playing devils advocate with your post, and i am sure you can understand what I was saying too.
Just think, if your wife or significant other was cheating on you, and you never found out, would that make it better ? Wouldnt you, when all is said and done, rather know than not ? >>
No no no, I totally agree with you. Just posing what I think is an interesting question, is all, although I agree with you on the answers.
One of the small perversities surrounding a service like PSA's is that they can usually tell you with a high degree of accuracy if a card HAS been altered, but can't tell you with that same accuracy that a card HASN'T been altered. That may sound at first blush like a simple issue of semantics, although I think it's actually quite a bit more interesting than that. >>
That would just go to show that, although the people at PSA are among the best, they are still human and flawed just like the rest of us. Although there may be some stuff that slips through the cracks ( an example is a card, i forget which yr., which was posted the other day in a PSA flip which was obviously trimmed ) they are for the most part going to catch it, and certainly more so than the average guy. They provide us with the best possible option there is, and certainly aid in the growth and trust withing the sportscard community.
On the other hand, people out there restoring cards, for whatever reason are doing nothing in the end to help the hobby, and will certainly hurt it somewhere along the line.
-- Yogi Berra
As for the comment that restoration is common and encouraged in comics isn't quite true. Restoration has been around for years in comics but was always frowned upon. The restoration done was quite amateurish and in many cases so obvious that it left the comic in worse condition than pre-restoration. For years and till this day, restored comics brought fewer dollars than un-restored comics. When CGC began grading comics they would slab a book that has been restored, but describe the extent of restoration on the label. With restoration out in the open, dealers and CGC began promoting these kind of books as being collector worthy. Given a choice, most true collectors would prefer an unrestored book as opposed to a restored one. Restoration is a personal choice, but it is usually not encouraged.
If I knew how to link these I would but basically there werev 3 questions.
1)Is soaking glue and paper off cards okay?--49 yes 17 no. I voted no.
2)Is erasing pen or pencil marks off cards okay?--43 yes 23 no(I again voted no)
3)Is taking a crease out of a card okay?--don't know exact tally but recollection is 90% no.
I view this as the biggest threat facing the hobby and vintage card values and believe that all types of card alteration/restoration are wrong. I was shocked to see that a whole group of knowledgeable collectors think differently.
On another topic, many(most?) Network 54 participants believe that a lot of trimmed/restored cards have found their way into graded company card holders.
Jim
Net54 v1
Net 54 v2
Net 54 v3
I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the ability of restorers to do their work undetected has surpassed the ability of those that would detect it. And that lower and mid grade cards are as often the target of this work as high end cards.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
If you are a collector of 1970-present, I don't think your collection is being effected by this type of action. The cards are still available in high grade either in set form or unopened material. If you collect the era from (1952-1967), I think the crease removal/corner pressing is being done pretty regularly. The early pre-war stuff is being done all the time and usually worse. Most of the 1888-1920 cards are getting major changes done to them because most of the survival cards were adhered to photo albums.
I know that we all hate hearing this, but I think PSA is doing the best that they can to detect these actions. Do they catch all of them? No way. I do know that PSA is cracking down on dealers who continually submit altered cards to them. I have first hand knowledge that PSA is tired of this practice and the dealers that continue to provide an altered product to the public.
Shane
Great post--would love to speak to you on this-- Give me a call when its convenient.
Jim