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advice? auction in Germany

I am looking at buying a piece or two at the upcoming Gorny & Mosch auction in October.... this may end up being a significant purchase in terms of cost, which is why I'm a little wary of sending in a bid. I would prefer to have someone bidding for me in person and maybe examine the coin(s) beforehand. Any recommendations for a dealer/collector who might do this? Of course I would be happy to pay for this service - I'm not expecting someone to do it for free! image
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)

Comments

  • 1jester1jester Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭
    Sorry I have no recommendations of people who could look at the coin and/or bid for you. However, if the coin is really important to you, and very expensive, it might be worth it for you to go and bid on it yourself. That would also considerably simplify bringing it home. Just a thought.

    imageimageimage
    .....GOD
    image

    "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9

    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5

    "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
  • cachemancacheman Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭
    Contact:

    Jochen Pater
    Email: info@muenz-shop-pater.de

    Tell him "Scott the Goetz guy" sent you his way.

    He will save you from having G&M take your highest bid regardless of the next underbid amount. Yes, they do this quite regularly.

    Good luck.
  • secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Contact:

    Jochen Pater
    Email: info@muenz-shop-pater.de

    Tell him "Scott the Goetz guy" sent you his way.

    He will save you from having G&M take your highest bid regardless of the next underbid amount. Yes, they do this quite regularly.

    Good luck. >>



    Cacheman - I didn't want to come right out and say this, but that's what I'd heard from other sources. image However, the coin I want is amazing (actually there are two of them - either one would be great), so it's worth stepping up to the plate. I just need to do it the right way.

    I'm waiting for another lead to materialize but if it doesn't I'll drop Mr. Pater a line - thanks for the tip.
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • worldcoinguyworldcoinguy Posts: 2,999 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>He will save you from having G&M take your highest bid regardless of the next underbid amount. Yes, they do this quite regularly >>



    Disturbing. Is this isolated to this one house, or does Kuenker do it also?
  • cachemancacheman Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭
    Let's just say that it is the norm rather than the exception...image

    I have done business with 95% of the auctionhouses in Germany and all, with the exception of two, use this practice to varying degrees. I can only state this as my personal experience.

    I use an agent to attend, preview lots, and bid for me now at all auctions except at the two auction houses I trust.
  • secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>He will save you from having G&M take your highest bid regardless of the next underbid amount. Yes, they do this quite regularly >>



    Disturbing. Is this isolated to this one house, or does Kuenker do it also? >>



    I don't know what Cacheman's experience has been like, but I think this is more of an issue when you're bidding on more expensive pieces (i.e., a few hundred euros and up). I don't think they spend a lot of time doing this for the smaller items. But I think it's very, very common, and not just in Germany. In Poland, which has a hot coin market, I've heard it's also an issue.

    As for Kuenker, I've only bought one piece there - it was around 500 euros and I got it for near the max of my mail-in bid. But it was a fair price -- if anything, a little underpriced relative to market value, probably because it was conservatively graded.

    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • 1jester1jester Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>He will save you from having G&M take your highest bid regardless of the next underbid amount. Yes, they do this quite regularly >>



    Disturbing. Is this isolated to this one house, or does Kuenker do it also? >>



    I don't know what Cacheman's experience has been like, but I think this is more of an issue when you're bidding on more expensive pieces (i.e., a few hundred euros and up). I don't think they spend a lot of time doing this for the smaller items. But I think it's very, very common, and not just in Germany. In Poland, which has a hot coin market, I've heard it's also an issue. >>



    This occurs in Poland, as well.

    imageimageimage
    .....GOD
    image

    "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9

    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5

    "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
  • cachemancacheman Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭
    And it certainly occurs here in the U.S. too!!!
  • SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,445 ✭✭✭✭
    If the agent is a dealer, he's entitled to a proffessional 10-12% discount anyway, and it's very likely that the ones who attend don't go for a single coin, they have other requests too and perhaps they bid on a few themselves.

    So, if he's an honest agent, he won't ask for an extra commission to do this, but there are a few greedy ones that ask for an extra 10% for this service anyway.
    Dimitri



    myEbay



    DPOTD 3
  • cachemancacheman Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, I've never been asked to pay a premium to the agent/dealer for their services.
  • MacCrimmonMacCrimmon Posts: 7,051 ✭✭✭
    I have also been advised to always use an agent, even if I'm attending myself (which I've yet to do). Collusion is also practiced quite freely in European auctions. Let's just say that your "agent" will see that your bid is part of his negotiated "bid package". image

    Ethical? No, but those are the realities.
  • SYRACUSIANSYRACUSIAN Posts: 6,445 ✭✭✭✭
    As long as he really knows his work, and will warn me and protect me from an eventual expensive mistake, I'll play by his rules. But he really needs to be good, not just execute the bid, especially on higher ticket items.
    Dimitri



    myEbay



    DPOTD 3
  • secondrepublicsecondrepublic Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭
    I got in touch with Jochen Pater and just sent off my bids to him. I'm keeping my fingers crossed image Thanks for the help and advice, that's what makes this such a great board.
    "Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Was planning on bidding in the upcoming Gorny sale next week on their website, but came across this old thread.

    Think the auction house still operates this way? Anyone have any connections to help view a coin in hand for this sale?

    Thanks in advance.

    My current "Box of 20"

  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are you all aware that JP is an (part) owner of another auction Firm in Germany?
    And yes, they all!!! try and get the most out of any sale, ANY way they can. Most, not all, do it legally by planting "trusted buyers" in the crowd. These "buyers pick up when the Internet or phone bids die off , get slow,
    The houses already know the highest mail-in bid, know the generated interest on the Lot and adjust the starting bids accordingly. The the "bidders" take over.
    Nobody except they themselves, know what is happening until the lot comes up.
    If the seller gets stuck with a "trusted" bid, the item will be available a couple auctions later, but this time probably as their own, as officially it was sold and the consignor gets paid.
    I was told once, a few years ago live on the phone: a couple more bids... and it is yours!!!
    So i did and got it..... later It reverberated in my ears....... How did the guy on the phone know???

    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was going to suggest attending the auction in person as a way to avoid the auctioneers' shenanigans, but it sounds like that is not a solution either. :/

  • StorkStork Posts: 5,205 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I had an opposite experience with a Japanese auction house, which I may have shared before.

    I dropped an early nuclear bid on something I REALLY wanted (Albanian of course, because who doesn't bid in a Japanese auction for an Albanian coin :smiley: ). I got an email from a lady from the auction house wanting to make sure I'd bid correctly and not confused my currency. I assured her yes that was my bid. I was working that weekend and unlikely to be able to be up for the auction live hence the early use of the huge bid.

    In any case, I was sure I'd be bid up, but ended up winning the lot for under half my bid. No one else apparently noticed the date on the coin was the rarer one. An clearly no one bid me up even though the auction house was well aware of my ridiculous bid.

    Otherwise I try and bid on a live platform and given the internet so many more make this possible. Or, at least, make my 'best' bids a lot closer to the auction time frame.


  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2019 2:45PM

    Happened to me once at heritage. Bid online 1500, hammered at 850, invoices for 1500. I bought the coin but never bid there again. I understand their position but I felt somewhat slighted. I don’t even look at auctions online anymore. I’ve added to my collection just fine without them.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From my experience I believe almost all auction houses slip the potted plant in the corner a note when they are aware of a strong bid. :s

  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are there any legal protections against this kind of alleged behavior? State, Federal, or otherwise?

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the trick is to prove it!
    I guess one would have to get Lawyers and subpoenas involved.... and big legal fees.

    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭

    @WildIdea said:
    Happened to me once at heritage. Bid online 1500, hammered at 850, invoices for 1500. I bought the coin but never bid there again. I understand their position but I felt somewhat slighted. I don’t even look at auctions online anymore. I’ve added to my collection just fine without them.

    I would have sent them a cheque for the hammer price plus BP/tax/shipping. That's ridiculous.

    http://stores.ebay.ca/Mattscoin - Canadian coins, World Coins, Silver, Gold, Coin lots, Modern Mint Products & Collections
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019 7:46PM

    @WildIdea said:
    Happened to me once at heritage. Bid online 1500, hammered at 850, invoices for 1500. I bought the coin but never bid there again. I understand their position but I felt somewhat slighted. I don’t even look at auctions online anymore. I’ve added to my collection just fine without them.

    What was "their position"? I've bid in hundreds of their sales over the years and never had anything like this happen to me, but I can imagine some unusual scenarios where it could. And if you're not sure what happened, perhaps @HeritageGreg can explain.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:

    @WildIdea said:
    Happened to me once at heritage. Bid online 1500, hammered at 850, invoices for 1500. I bought the coin but never bid there again. I understand their position but I felt somewhat slighted. I don’t even look at auctions online anymore. I’ve added to my collection just fine without them.

    What was "their position"? I've bid in hundreds of their sales over the years and never had anything like this happen to me, but I can imagine some unusual scenarios where it could. And if you're not sure what happened, perhaps @HeritageGreg can explain.

    I just looked it up. 2011. My bid was 1600, plus 240 BP and shipping. I just paid /bought the coin as it was my bid I guess regardless if it was my secret max without an underbidder. At that time I had already been to a Summer Seminar where this was discussed back and forth in a class as being an ethical practice with mail bids with auction companies and buyer beware. At the time I would have thought this company’s online auctions would have been safe from that, but alas, it was not. I watched that coin go down live and hammer at 850 and move onto the next lot. I was stoked! I know now I should have called and asked for explanation of maybe a late mail bid was tallied, but simply took my medicine for running in that pack. So weird it was now at my secret max to the dollar. I remembered the SS class....I could have not paid for the coin and burned the bridge, but I didn’t feel it would be the right honest step for me. Today, I just wouldn’t put it past any company to have a shortcoming in an auction performance being tempted to run up the profit this way even if just a little here a little there. A quick dollar but not a solid long term business model if you ask me.

    I’m a small time collector nobody, maybe this doesn’t happen to dealers who bid at hundreds of auctions. My bid was the highest paid at auction to date for the coin. I just checked coin facts they show one going back to 2013 and the high bid is still only 1100. I was so high on gem Lincolns back then! I did it to myself and will own it. A few more years and the market will finally catch what I was willing to bid. Awesome! Cheap enough lesson. As others have said on this thread, the practice happens. I believe it happened to me once. Still, I felt inclined to warn a few here when the topic popped back up.

    I prefer to now buy coins retail from others who went thought that hassle and buy pieces I find appropriate and frankly I feel I don’t pay any more doing so as I could be running them up at auction and then buying from them at some point later. If you like he auction format, just be glad another guy is out of the picture.

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think your mistake was not calling and getting an explanation. What you think happened probably didn’t at HA.

  • WildIdeaWildIdea Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WildIdea said:

    @MrEureka said:

    @WildIdea said:
    Happened to me once at heritage. Bid online 1500, hammered at 850, invoices for 1500. I bought the coin but never bid there again. I understand their position but I felt somewhat slighted. I don’t even look at auctions online anymore. I’ve added to my collection just fine without them.

    What was "their position"? I've bid in hundreds of their sales over the years and never had anything like this happen to me, but I can imagine some unusual scenarios where it could. And if you're not sure what happened, perhaps @HeritageGreg can explain.

    I just looked it up. 2011. My bid was 1600, plus 240 BP and shipping. I just paid /bought the coin as it was my bid I guess regardless if it was my secret max without an underbidder. At that time I had already been to a Summer Seminar where this was discussed back and forth in a class as being an ethical practice with mail bids with auction companies and buyer beware. At the time I would have thought this company’s online auctions would have been safe from that, but alas, it was not. I watched that coin go down live and hammer at 850 and move onto the next lot. I was stoked! I know now I should have called and asked for explanation of maybe a late mail bid was tallied, but simply took my medicine for running in that pack. So weird it was now at my secret max to the dollar. I remembered the SS class....I could have not paid for the coin and burned the bridge, but I didn’t feel it would be the right honest step for me. Today, I just wouldn’t put it past any company to have a shortcoming in an auction performance being tempted to run up the profit this way even if just a little here a little there. A quick dollar but not a solid long term business model if you ask me.

    I’m a small time collector nobody, maybe this doesn’t happen to dealers who bid at hundreds of auctions. My bid was the highest paid at auction to date for the coin. I just checked coin facts they show one going back to 2013 and the high bid is still only 1100. I was so high on gem Lincolns back then! I did it to myself and will own it. A few more years and the market will finally catch what I was willing to bid. Awesome! Cheap enough lesson. As others have said on this thread, the practice happens. I believe it happened to me once. Still, I felt inclined to warn a few here when the topic popped back up.

    I prefer to now buy coins retail from others who went thought that hassle and buy pieces I find appropriate and frankly I feel I don’t pay any more doing so as I could be running them up at auction and then buying from them at some point later. If you like he auction format, just be glad another guy is out of the picture.

    A Heritage representative has reached out to me via PM and offered to review my claim from 2011. I accepted, forwarding my invoice receipt for the coin in question.

    It appears there was another underbidder and I have had it wrong this whole time. I absolutely should have called to clarify the situation at the time. I will stop feeling slighted and stop telling the story this way ever again.

    Embarrassing really, but in a way I’m glad to be wrong here. I apologize for the posts.

    Thank you.

  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow - this thread was interesting to resurrect (although it does not help my current situation)!

    I have always thought HA ran a clean auction - I think it is great that they reached out and clarified.

    I have good experiences with Kunker auctions, too. But now a few others where my top bid was amazingly the purchase price...

    Thanks all.

    My current "Box of 20"

  • StorkStork Posts: 5,205 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've also been an underbidder (more than once with that individual) when someone posted they were concerned 'the house' had run them up. I let them know it was me :smiley: . Also a large auction house we all know and love, and I don't expect shenanigans from them.

    My few times getting hit on my max bid had make me wonder, but being literally and positively identified as being on the other side is reassuring though mildly disappointing.


  • @secondrepublic said:
    I am looking at buying a piece or two at the upcoming Gorny & Mosch auction in October.... this may end up being a significant purchase in terms of cost, which is why I'm a little wary of sending in a bid. I would prefer to have someone bidding for me in person and maybe examine the coin(s) beforehand. Any recommendations for a dealer/collector who might do this? Of course I would be happy to pay for this service - I'm not expecting someone to do it for free!

    Hello everyone!
    I'm new and a few days late into this topic, but I'll chime in. Also I think this auction is coming up in two days.
    I've been collecting since about 2013 and have recently focused my collection and even started registry sets (same screen name). I've been on HA, Stacks, Goldberg, etc. and have not run into any issues whatsoever.
    Now, onto the topic at hand. I personally would overbid on the item you are looking to get if you really, really need it or if it is a top-pop kind of purchase. I have one bid out at the Gorny auction but if it gets outbid, so be it.
    I have had one weird experience recently though. One larger auction house had a coin I was bidding on. I waited to bid live on this just in case. Apparently there was a huge bid up front on this coin and I bid it up to a more than respectable level. The pre-bid must have been for quite a bit and I called it quits. The action ended and the next day I get a personalized email asking if I still wanted the coin for my highest bid (which was 100 euro lower than the winning bid). I immediately had visions of walking up to a shell-game in NYC on a cardboard box, where every player is friends and the money stays in the pool, only to have strangers add to it. So I relay my concerns and was told that 'the high bidder had set a high limit on that coin, but also won another and felt that someone else might want it more than he did, and that he also had many many purchases".
    What?
    When, in any other auction house does that answer even come into play?? Especially the day after the auction. Sounds like someone was fishing for a high bid. I reluctantly accepted that story but passed on the opportunity to purchase. There will be others....
    Good luck with the upcoming auction, I say go for it!

    Collecting world gold, German State silver Marks and other things of interest

  • Bob13Bob13 Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for al the advice. I bid on 3 lots last night and was informed I was subsequently outbid on all 3.

    Lately I have been the ubderbidder. Darn those plants!

    My current "Box of 20"

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