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I've delisted my 2005-P/D Satin Finish Dimes in protest!
Stooge
Posts: 4,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
In the ongoing struggle to get PCGS to change its stance on the Business Strike/Satin Finish "Saga", I have delisted my 2 Satin Finish Roosevelt Dimes and will not add them in the future to any of my Dime sets until PCGS simply does the right thing by adding all 4 Dimes to the appropriate sets. I believe that there is a vast difference between the B.S. vs. S.F. and PCGS should see that its only right. I'm not looking for another Dime set, just add all 4 dimes to the Dime sets, thats all. If I am fortunate to find a B.S. for 2005-date, then I will add those.
Is George Lucas going to make Star Wars VII?
Later, Paul.
Is George Lucas going to make Star Wars VII?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
0
Comments
I have ask for this as well. I would like to see all four dimes in the sets too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jon
As for the coin side, I can't blame you one bit. This is like saying there is no distinction between SMS and BS from 1965-1967. I'd go down fighting this one if I was into moderns.
Looking for Denmark 1874 20-Kroner. Please offer.
<< <i>I'm only going to collect business strikes too. And I'm not going to include a 1982 no p in my dime set. It is an error/variety and should not be in a basic set. >>
Exactly! PCGS puts the 68, 70, & 83 no-S dimes in the variety set where they belong.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
But lets be realistic about PCGS, grading fees are their life blood.
What is PCGS making the most money from in grading fees right now? SF of course, dealers are flooding them with business.
Now why would they want the registry sets using SF coins? To keep that flood flowing.
PCGS is a business, and like every business, profit is/has to be its ultimate goal.
Now if you still don't know WHY the SF's are in the circulation strike sets, go back and start reading at line two.
The part that I dont understand, is why they are overlooking the fact that ADDING the TRUE business strikes would only increase submissions. This in effect providing MORE profit for the Company. I never knew a company that refused to add to their bottom line with no downside, at least none that I can see.
This is great, more and more collectors are seeing the light! PCGS' bs stance on the sf coins makes no sense at all. I think its time for them to revamp the registry. Add some new variety sets, or at least have the same standards on the 65-7 sms coins as they have with the satin finish coins. Even then, the term "circulation strike" doesn't seem to apply to the satin finish coins, which in all honesty have no place in the registry other than the 05 and newer mint set registries. I have yet to see any modern set that says "circulation and/or satin finish strikes" in the descriptive name of any particular series of coins. Good move Paul, even if it's not the most popular. There are a few of us out here that understand your position in this situation.
rb
edited for typo's
<< <i>Good move Paul, even if it's not the most popular. There are a few of us out here that understand your position in this situation.
rb >>
I appreciate the applause and glad to see others feel the same way, but if I'm the only one doing this, then PCGS is sitting at their computers reading this and laughing at Me.
Anyone out there going to follow me?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
I can not believe PCGS has NOT responded to the multiple questions and demands to list satins under varieties. We need a real show effort here folks. But IMO people are too hung up on points and will not support this electronic protest. I think this is one reason mum has been the word from PCGS on this matter for OVER a year. If you pull coins from sets, and thus points, there will be a louder protest, but from a minority of collectors who are closer business associates to PCGS than 99% of us here. The irony of this is they SHOULD be the ones leading this effort.
I say we individually write them a letter instead of waiting to see if they respond on the boards about a debate that was started mid 2005, or shortly after the coins got holdered. Even a poll by Stooge some time back showed 55% support to separate the Satins from Business strikes. I bet that poll would yield closer to 75% support today now that more folks have had time to ponder the question.
So may I suggest a mail box full of letters instead? I think coming back to work after Long Beach and finding a bunch of complaint letters in their mailbox instead of grading orders might just get their attention and let them know we are dam… serious about this issue getting resolved . If there is a software issue, or if this being worked on in the future, or if they just want to refuse, at least they should show a little customer service and give us a response as to which way they are going to handle the problem THEY created. But a year and half later and nothing…is NOT acceptable. In fact I AM WRITING A LETTER NOW AND PUTTING IT IN THE MAIL BOX TODAY! Come on people; are you with Stooge and I? Or are just worried about your points?
WS
But the only way this will make an impact, is for collectors to boycott SF's (dont buy them) until the registry sets are again set upon their correct paths. I for one will not buy/submit another SF until this happens. So help me God.
Ws
At least 75% of all Pre 2005 registry coins came from mint sets. Because the the better quality coins come from there. Why should we now only use rolled coins? Now you know where the coins come from because they have the SF designation. If they chose to seperate the BS and SF fine. If not I will still look for the best coin I can afford which will probably be a SF mint set coin. Just like it was usually a pre 2005 mint set coin.
I don't get much satisfaction out of the ultra modern stuff. I'll take a 1969 Philly in 66 over (20) 68FB from the 2000's
Hello to all the Dime people. I'll try to post some but I'm more of a listener than a talker.
RM Bishop
P.S. I have no idea how to link my sets or put a picture on here. My sets are listed as azm's ----- in roosevelts.
azm's roosevelt full band date set
azm go and read that post with over 800 responses. Then you will get a feel for our position. It's just the fact that you can go out and get the sf coins in high grade and a small percentage of the cost of true biz strikes and they raise your set points. This really devalues the true business strikes. Not to mention that these are really a variety and therefore have no true place in most of the modern coin categories as they are presently set up. And it's totally 180 degree's out from the way the 65-7 sms coins are currently done. Why are these sms coins any different than the earlier sms coins???????
<< <i>So be it.
But the only way this will make an impact, is for collectors to boycott SF's (dont buy them) until the registry sets are again set upon their correct paths. I for one will not buy/submit another SF until this happens. So help me God. >>
Dan, I'm not asking you to not obtain top Satin finish examples of your Roosies. Please do yourself a favor and pick up the '06's, but I just would like to see everyone pull their SF coins until PCGS decides what to do. I really don't care about the poits either, but this should be done. Nice job on the '05-P MS67FB/BS (4/0). where did you get it?
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>Even a poll by Stooge some time back showed 55% support to separate the Satins from Business strikes. I bet that poll would yield closer to 75% support today now that more folks have had time to ponder the question.
WS >>
Here is a link to the thread with the POLL, and if you didn't vote, then vote! Make Susan B. Anthony proud!
POLL
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
<< <i>Dan, I'm not asking you to not obtain top Satin finish examples of your Roosies. Please do yourself a favor and pick up the '06's, but I just would like to see everyone pull their SF coins until PCGS decides what to do. I really don't care about the points either, but this should be done. Nice job on the '05-P MS67FB/BS (4/0). where did you get it? >>
Paul read our private messages from 2/4/06 about the 05-P 67FB.
And no, I pass on the SF's until PCGS, taking their own sweet time, decides to do the right thing with the "CIRCULATION STRIKE" Roosevelt Registry Set.
While I agree that this is indeed a good idea, I usually collect mint sets so I will not be technically be participating. I do however list SF or Satin Finish right next to my mint sets so everyone knows it is not a business set.
In 2006 I am collecting both of the sets. So I will have 2 2006 mint sets. One will be full satin finish and one will be only business strikes. I will of course go back and do this in 2005, but not just yet. It will have to be a set I work on next year.
I have to agree fully with the comments in this thread though. There is absolutely NO REASON that PCGS can't give us at least the benefit of an answer. They should tell us if they plan on doing a variety set or have no intention what so ever.
Zach
Check my ebay BIN or Make Offers!!
<< <i>I have to agree fully with the comments in this thread though. There is absolutely NO REASON that PCGS can't give us at least the benefit of an answer. They should tell us if they plan on doing a variety set or have no intention what so ever. >>
EXACTLY Zach, a company that cared about it's customers would come out and say EXACTLY what their plans are.
<< <i>EXACTLY Zach, a company that cared about it's customers would come out and say EXACTLY what their plans are. >>
I agree. A company whose officers have any self esteem, AND feel that their company has a certain amount of positive value, AND that their customers are worthy of some level of care, should make clear responses to these questions that have been long begged for answers.
It seems entirely inexcusable, to me, given this amount of time, and given this amount of effort, on the part of collectors on PCGS' behalf, that their intentions have not been communicated.
Your comment about the 75% of the coins coming from mint sets in the past (while possibly a bit low with respect to the highest grade coins) I believe is right. But, as importantly to me, and as I mentioned before, the Mint's rolled coins in a number of circumstances beginning in 1999 had a totally different surface appearance/texture than the mint set coins. And then, in 2004, state quarters from Mint sets were found with extremely different surfaces than the past (and very different than roll coins) - these led to large quantities of MS69 specimens being discovered and graded, especially in the "d" mint, where to that point, there had only been -1- MS69 Denver minted state quarter graded over a 6 year period (1999-2004). IMHO, further research needs to be performed to sort this all out and get a better understanding of whether 2005 was actually the first year where we have (2) different surfaces of the mint state coins.
Wondercoin
<< <i>This is my first post. Not sure why I chose this one for it except that I do have an opinion.
At least 75% of all Pre 2005 registry coins came from mint sets. Because the the better quality coins come from there. Why should we now only use rolled coins? Now you know where the coins come from because they have the SF designation. If they chose to seperate the BS and SF fine. If not I will still look for the best coin I can afford which will probably be a SF mint set coin. Just like it was usually a pre 2005 mint set coin.
I don't get much satisfaction out of the ultra modern stuff. I'll take a 1969 Philly in 66 over (20) 68FB from the 2000's
Hello to all the Dime people. I'll try to post some but I'm more of a listener than a talker.
RM Bishop
P.S. I have no idea how to link my sets or put a picture on here. My sets are listed as azm's ----- in roosevelts. >>
AZM3 – It is not a question of where the coins came from (mints sets, rolls or bags), it is how they were made. I’m not talking about “smoke and mirrors” here, prior to 2005 the mint sets were a means of collecting a complete set of coins “meant for circulation’ (business strikes) all this talk about phantom 2004 satin finish quarters is a bunch of BS. Starting in 2005, the US Mint started making the Uncirculated Sets special by having them being a Satin Finish (not much different then the SMS issued by the mint in 1965 – 67). These Satin Finish coins were never meant for general circulation or for use in “commerce”.
Now let us look at what a Circulation Strike coin is. PCGS’s own definition is:
Circulation Strike An alternate term for Business Strike or Regular Strike. A coin meant for commerce. How do the Satin Finish coins of 2005 and 2006 meet this difinition?
The question I have for you, if a set you are working on purports to be a “Basic Set of Circulated Strike Coins” how does it include coins that were never meant for Circulation / commerce? If the set you are working on purports to being a Complete or Variety set then I could see the Satin Finish coins being included because these two set would include “coins not meant for commerce”.
In my humble opinion, Paul is one hundred percent correct, my son and I have three modern sets in the Registry, Complete Set, Varieties Set, and Basic Circulation Strikes. The Basic Circulation Strikes has no Satin Finish coins in it, they don’t belong in this set. I would like to have slots in the other two sets so we can enter both the “Satin Finish” and “Business Strike” coins.
Again, this is just my opinion,
Tim
Collectors Mint Set, Circulation Strikes (1970-2000)
Should these be excluded from regular registry sets?
Circulation Strike An alternate term for Business Strike or Regular Strike. A coin meant for commerce. How do the Satin Finish coins of 2005 and 2006 meet this difinition?
Coins from the Collectors Mint set were not meant for commerce, neither do some of the recent Kennedy's, unless you like losing money.
I really don't care one way or the other, SF gives everyone a better score, but if BS was the way it turns out so be it.
Maybe there's a better chance of getting another MS70 with SF & more business is being conducted because of that.
Maybe they wait until few SF are being sent in, then change to BS & get a whole lot of BS submissions....who knows?
Maybe the can of worms that would be opened if they change now would create an uproar about other series that have similar descrepancies?
Looks to me like the SF coins are kind of in no mans land to me. Not circ coins or proof coins. I still don't understand why there are two different circ coins, because I DO consider them circ coins. If they are what is put into the mint sets, which is what I understand.
Again, I would like to put both in my Dime sets. And would like to see them offered for sale. I'd love to have the 2005 P & D and 2006 P & D all in 67 NO BANDS.
Jon
<< <i>Again, I would like to put both in my Dime sets. And would like to see them offered for sale. I'd love to have the 2005 P & D and 2006 P & D all in 67 NO BANDS. >>
Jon I could submit MS67 N/B's, but with a grading fee, shipping charges to and from, and time involved, I'm not sure, with the ten coin min., that it would be worth the effort. You also have to take into effect that most registry set owners are so competive, they won't use them if it means dropping a few points to the rest of the list. That said, I will hold onto these coins until PCGS does the right thing, and makes a FAIR place to put them.
I am thinking NGC submissions for them. There are collectors over there that need them.
<< <i>I am thinking NGC submissions for them. There are collectors over there that need them.
Don't cross the street dan60, you might get hit by a car or something!
later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Jon
As for 68's even in n/b's, don't hold me to those. PCGS has the final say, and/if/or 68FB's come from any of these, they are spoken for, and will be in my, Pauls, and Tims sets.
Yes I think 68FB's will be found, maybe not by me, but by one of us three I hope.
You may want to ask Tim, he might have a n/b left that is in a holder.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
but until it is worthwhile I want send them in
Tim
<< <i>I have 66FB 06-P's up the Wazzo right now. I probably have some 67 NB 06-P's left over in a roll. I went through an entire box of 06-P's and did not get a 67FB. I made some other 67FB that I had on the bay earlier this year. >>
Brian,
PM me I actually am looking for a 06 p 66fb if you wanna get rid of one. I found a 66fb D and just need the p then I have all the bs strikes for 06 except for the dakotas which have yet to be made.
Zach
Check my ebay BIN or Make Offers!!
<< <i>I have 66FB 06-P's up the Wazzo right now. I probably have some 67 NB 06-P's left over in a roll. I went through an entire box of 06-P's and did not get a 67FB. I made some other 67FB that I had on the bay earlier this year. >>
I also am having little luck (10 rolls so far) finding keepers from my box of 06-P's. I need to at least find the 2nd 67FB for my set, but hope to find a 68FB if I can get hold of enough boxes.
<< <i>I only put Business strikes in my saca dollar registry. I would rather take the point hit, and have the rarer coin there. I also hope PCGS adds BS and SF to the registries, but am not going to lose sleep over it. >>
Way to go man!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
I'm with you on this BS vs SF thing. I recently acquired my 2006 P & D business strike lincoln cents (from Clackamas by the way
And for the record, I am over this registry POINT thing that I got so wrapped up in when I started out here. I too want to put the right coins where they belong and build the best lincoln set that I can.
Soooooo, on a larger scale, we have this BS vs. SF problem with 5 or 6 different series:
Lincolns
Jeffersons
Roosies
Washingtons
Kennedy's (actually, I have no clue if they made them for circ or not?)
Sacs
Stooge & Watersport, maybe the three of us should put our minds together and write up some sort of email or online petition (or maybe even set up a temporary website) where people can vote on this issue. NOT JUST FOR ONE SERIES, BUT FOR ALL.
I totally agree with Watersport in that the only way this change will EVER be made, is if enough of us VOICE our opinions and back it up with numbers (people). You know, people have been joking around about the 900+ post that has been going on for a year or so...and that PCGS has not done anything about it. Well, if emails, PM's, polls, submitting questions on the Q & A board and personal letters do not get a response, let's just take it to another level. For the record, I am NOT losing sleep over this issue. However, if enough people feel as strongly about this as I do, we should get exactly what we want. Afterall, we ARE the customer.
edited for spelling
They are sufficiently different and mint set coins have certainly been appearing in the sets in the past. To
exclude the business strike coins simply insults most collectors' sense of completeness.
The thing of the matter is, and I'm just repeating myself and others, is that we have had no response from PCGS regarding this issue other then. Here at PCGS we are looking into this issue regarding Satin Finish vs. Business Strike coins. I believe that this is a bogus, generic answer. Anyway at this point who cares. I suppose we shouldbe grateful that we have a place to hang our hats and a place to hang our coins.
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
Of course the idea of one set that includes all the coins from 05-through who knows, well I could live with that also. My problem is how can you have a circulated set without EVERYONE having to have circulation (business strike) coins? Is this not the same thing the mint did in 65/67? Did PCGS put the 65/67 coins in as and/or? Nooooo Why do it now, anyone can tell satin finish from business strikes. In fact its much easier than knowing the SMS from business coins. If you dont think so, try sending in some nice 65/67 coins and see what holder they comes home in. Seems only PCGS knows for sure when we find SMS coins in a roll.
<< <i>I really don't think that more sets are needed. I think the 1965-Date clad Roosies is a fine set and would not want another 1965-Date set just so I can add 4 dimes to it every year. If they just made the current set as is with both varieties, it would be just fine, and Dan50 and myself would be happy. Well maybe just I would be happy. Well I have all 4 Satin Finish Dimes as of right now, and will not add them.
The thing of the matter is, and I'm just repeating myself and others, is that we have had no response from PCGS regarding this issue other then. Here at PCGS we are looking into this issue regarding Satin Finish vs. Business Strike coins. I believe that this is a bogus, generic answer. Anyway at this point who cares. I suppose we shouldbe grateful that we have a place to hang our hats and a place to hang our coins.
Later, Paul. >>
Hey Gunner
Just my opinion but I think you're the number one guy in Roosie's now. Nick was awesome but I think he's fading. He has the resources to put together the first FB set. He's lost the love. You're the guy now. Submit! Submit! Submit!
If all goes well, the retirement planning, saving, etc., someday I'll have the fifth rated current set.
<< <i>Hey Gunner
Just my opinion but I think you're the number one guy in Roosie's now. Nick was awesome but I think he's fading. He has the resources to put together the first FB set. He's lost the love. You're the guy now. Submit! Submit! Submit!
If all goes well, the retirement planning, saving, etc., someday I'll have the fifth rated current set. >>
Waldo:
I appreciate the sentiment, I really do, and there are some incredible sets in the 65-date Roosie set. I think if we all pooled our sets together, we would have a "perfect set"! I think every top pop is listed in the top twenty sets. There may be one or two who knows. Nick will always be #1. He has made it look really easy, even though its not. His Silvers are off the chain rediculous! I'm going for the 100% FB and we'll see where that goes on a Nurses income!
Later, Paul.
Later, Paul.
I don't know how many of you know this yet...but when I opened up both of my basic sets to switch out those coins, I went down to my 69RD SF coins (2005 & 2006) and right beside each of those coins - it gave me the option to click on "replace coin". I just clicked on it and walla...the BS coin was automatically entered into my set and it discarded the old SF from my set. The software recognizes that you have more than one coin for that year/mint mark and gives you the option to switch them out!!!!!! Just one of the new cool features of the new software system we are using!
Sure, I know not everyone agrees with where to put BS coins and where to put the SF coins, but this seemed like the best solution for ME. I could care less about the points at this stage of the game. Now, if someone out there has a 2005-P in 67RD, PLEASE PM ME!!!!!!!!
Toby,
I have one of those creatures. But, he's not for sale!
RegistryNut
I have one of those creatures. But, he's not for sale! Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Hey, I can take jabs every once in a while.
Gimme about 2-3 weeks and I'LL show you a coin that will put you flat on your back!