OK Chemists.. 'splain to me how Nic-a-date works
lsica
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I'm curious
Philately will get you nowhere....
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Collector of US Small Size currency, Atlanta FRNs, and Georgia nationals since 1977. Researcher of small size US type - seeking serial number data for all FRN star notes, Series 1928 to 1934-D. Life member SPMC.
but that's just my educated guess
I don't know what is in the grain structure boundaries of a buffalo nickel but I'd guess nic-a-date reacts with it to make it visible.
--Jerry
<< <i>I don't know but I can speculate. stamping the date on a coin cold works the metal changing it's grain structure in the underlying metal. Changes are pependent on the stress applied/the ammount of strain realized and the stress/strain is high on the low surfaces and low on the high surfaces and the interface between the two should be a boundary. I'd guess that the date is stored in this grain structure. If this were steel or a steel alloy, then anyting that removes or reacts with the carbon in the grain structure would reveal the pattern that is the date stamp.
I don't know what is in the grain structure boundaries of a buffalo nickel but I'd guess nic-a-date reacts with it to make it visible.
--Jerry >>
At least it sounds like you know what you're talking about, that's good enough for me.
K S
If that were true, then hydraulics would be non-functional. Hydraulic fluid, and all metals (under the proper pressure), can be compressed. Water cannot be compressed, however.
Nic-a-Date for SLQs is nitric acid. Nitric acid is a clear solution. Nic-a-Date for nickels is a yellowish-brownish solution of ferric (iron III) chloride.
My guess you need a metallurgist, but Nic-a-Date probably works like acid etching. Probably dissolves the nickel metal in the coin and leaves the copper. Metal flow during the striking process probably is why it works, but I don't know the exact reason why.
Collector of US Small Size currency, Atlanta FRNs, and Georgia nationals since 1977. Researcher of small size US type - seeking serial number data for all FRN star notes, Series 1928 to 1934-D. Life member SPMC.
<< <i>"Metals and liquids are functionally non-compressable"
If that were true, then hydraulics would be non-functional. Hydraulic fluid, and all metals (under the proper pressure), can be compressed. Water cannot be compressed, however. >>
Soo true.
Think science---- "black holes"- the ultimate compressed matter
<< <i>"Metals and liquids are functionally non-compressable"
If that were true, then hydraulics would be non-functional. Hydraulic fluid, and all metals (under the proper pressure), can be compressed. Water cannot be compressed, however. >>
Man, am I ever confused!! That is opposite from what I have ever learned/believed. If fluid and metal were compressable.... the hydraulics could NEVER work!! GAS is compressable.... that is what is in gas cylinders. But for the most part, liquids and metal are NON compressible.... they cannot be easily squeezed down to a smaller volume.... and that means they cannot be compressed. That is why hydraulics work.... because the hydraulic fluid does not compress, so it 'drives' the pistons to do work. Same as our brake systems on cars, etc.
<< <i>When a coin is struck, the metal is denser in lower areas, because more metal has been compressed down than in higher areas (think, the planchet starts out even, and some metal is pushed down more than other metal to make the design). Nic-a-date is acidic, and when treated to the date-area of the nickel, where the surrounding area is denser. The change in density will cause the acid to eat away at different rates, and thus make the date appear. >>
So, would this also work on the letters?
Jerry
<< <i>Tincup--Is the only contributor that understands Physics, everyone else is totally or partially challenged by the thread ! But as we all know in this Forum everyone has at least two opinions ! >>
Funny- that is not what is explained HERE
Tell you what. Drain your brake fluid and replace it with water. Drive around the block and jam on the brakes a few times. Then come back and tell us about hydraulics. Trust me, brake fluid, hydraulic fluid, and virtually everything else in the universe can be compressed - under the right amount of pressure. Some elements simply take more pressure than others.
Have you ever heard that a diamond can be made from pure carbon, under extremely high pressure?
"Tincup--Is the only contributor that understands Physics"
No, Tincup is apparently confused by this basic physical principle - by his own admission.
<< <i>i`m not a chemist but i would guess its the same as when cops want to get serial #s from a gun that had its #`s filed off??? >>
Coinman, you got it. But it works in reverse in this case. The serial numbers on guns are impressed into the metal. This does compress the metal to a degree. When acid is used on the filed off area, the #'s appear.
Safe Cracker
My Indian Name is: Runs With Beer
<< <i>Since nic-a-date doesn't work on silver SLQ's.... I'd think all the theories relating to metal compression and acidic action can't be true.... if they were, wouldn't nic-a-date work on them, too? >>
Silver is a fairly acid-resistant metal and simple acids like hydrochloric or room temperature sulfuric simply are not strong enough to "eat" the metal. Nitric acid works because it is strongly oxidizing and will oxidize the silver. (In reality, HNO3 is fairly weak acid-wise but very strong in terms of oxidizing power).
So if the nic-a-date is an acidic medium, which is not HNO3, it will do nothing to silver as silver will not be dissolved by acids which aren't strongly oxidizing.
<< <i>
<< <i>"Metals and liquids are functionally non-compressable"
If that were true, then hydraulics would be non-functional. Hydraulic fluid, and all metals (under the proper pressure), can be compressed. Water cannot be compressed, however. >>
Man, am I ever confused!! That is opposite from what I have ever learned/believed. If fluid and metal were compressable.... the hydraulics could NEVER work!! GAS is compressable.... that is what is in gas cylinders. But for the most part, liquids and metal are NON compressible.... they cannot be easily squeezed down to a smaller volume.... and that means they cannot be compressed. That is why hydraulics work.... because the hydraulic fluid does not compress, so it 'drives' the pistons to do work. Same as our brake systems on cars, etc. >>
Everything can be compressed but some things are relatively uncompressible. Water, for instance, is
very resistant to compression but it is the increased density caused by compression which is much of
the reason deep water doesn't freeze from the bottom up.
Bulk modulus is the reciprocal of the compressibility. You should be able to google this for most sub-
stances.
<< <i>"That is why hydraulics work.... because the hydraulic fluid does not compress, so it 'drives' the pistons to do work. Same as our brake systems on cars, etc."
Tell you what. Drain your brake fluid and replace it with water. Drive around the block and jam on the brakes a few times. Then come back and tell us about hydraulics. Trust me, brake fluid, hydraulic fluid, and virtually everything else in the universe can be compressed - under the right amount of pressure. Some elements simply take more pressure than others.
Have you ever heard that a diamond can be made from pure carbon, under extremely high pressure?
"Tincup--Is the only contributor that understands Physics"
No, Tincup is apparently confused by this basic physical principle - by his own admission. >>
No, you misunderstand.... I most definitely am NOT confused. I understand perfectly the concepts of compressibility and noncompressibility of solids, liquids, and gases. I deal with physics every day in my line of work. My other post was worded the way it was because of my astonishment of the posted statement that hydraulics work because liquids and metals are 'compressible'.......... well, guess I will just have to burn my phsics books, and looks like I wasted my education.... because I definitely do NOT agree with that (on an everyday practical level).... (And yes, MrHalfDime, I am perfectly aware that diamonds are made of carbon that has been subjected to intense pressures and temperature I am also aware that theories have been forwarded that all the matter in the universe may be able to be compacted down to the size of a basketball or so prior to another 'big bang' taking place--- so I guess 'everything' in that regard is compressible)
Oh well... believe as you wish. I don't feel a need to debate it. If anyone wishes to believe that liquids and metals are compressible..... not a problem with me!
David
It sounds like some chemical to bring out the date on an otherwise unreadable coin, to me (that would be acidic).
It's likely I could explain this more simple in layman's terms:
BODYBAG !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>It's likely I could explain this more simple in layman's terms:
BODYBAG !
>>
Uh.. coins without dates (unless you can date by type or variety) don't get slabbed anyway
So unless you're using nic-a-date on a coin with a date already, it's somewhat silly to say that nic-a-date'ing the coin will "cause you" to get a "bodybag" from a TPG
<< <i>It sounds like some chemical to bring out the date on an otherwise unreadable coin >>
THAT we already knew. I was asking "how".
<< <i>
<< <i>Since nic-a-date doesn't work on silver SLQ's.... I'd think all the theories relating to metal compression and acidic action can't be true.... if they were, wouldn't nic-a-date work on them, too? >>
Silver is a fairly acid-resistant metal and simple acids like hydrochloric or room temperature sulfuric simply are not strong enough to "eat" the metal. Nitric acid works because it is strongly oxidizing and will oxidize the silver. (In reality, HNO3 is fairly weak acid-wise but very strong in terms of oxidizing power).
So if the nic-a-date is an acidic medium, which is not HNO3, it will do nothing to silver as silver will not be dissolved by acids which aren't strongly oxidizing. >>
I've never taken a chemitry course, but theis is the best explanation I have read as to how Nic-A-Date works -- for a while -- and wny there is no similar product for all those datesless pre-1925 SLQs. I started my Buffalo Nickel set as a teenager with Nic-A-Date. (Most of the "rarities" I restored in the '70s again have invisible dates under a discoloerd spot.) This is the best explanation I have heard so far as to how Nic-A-Date works, and why it won't work on silver.
Of course my response was silly, that's why I precluded it to say "I'm no chemist" and am a "layman". Sometimes I just prefer diverting attention away from the arguement of the compressing of atoms. Duh... we can split them, can't we ? We can most certainly compress anything to include all of the elements. Remember that ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE.
I see one saying we cannot compress something, others saying we can. What is happening with this CHEMICAL that causes it to bring out the date ? I apologize for responding to your thread as I am not a chemist and do not know.
Albert Einstein couldn't figure it out himself. It took scientists before him. If you don't want me to interject a little humor, say so
I'll shuddup.
all due respect.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Ed. S.
(EJS)
My semi-educated understanding is the answer has to do with the lattice structure imparted in the metal by striking it -- and the resulting variablility in etching caused by the acid in nick-a-date. It is said a bit more eloquently below as a description of cold working metal (what a coin press does, I believe):
Because plastic deformation results from the movement of dislocations, metals can be strengthened by preventing this motion. When a metal is bent or shaped, dislocations are generated and move. As the number of dislocations in the crystal increases, they will get tangled or pinned and will not be able to move. This will strengthen the metal, making it harder to deform.
My take is this cold working of date itself makes it harder and more resistant to the acid than the surrounding area which is eaten more readily by the acid. Thus this difference in etching rates reveal the date....Mike
p.s. for the record, I'm of the belief that hydraulics work because of the relative incompressability of hydraulic fluid.
[ edited to add source ]
So I'll wait for a good answer. I think I've read one or two plausible ones.
This forum is SO much fun!
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<< <i>It is the metallic crystal structure that is different and which produces differing degrees of hardness. >>
-----------------
Pretty close. The cubic structure of "case hardened" metal is less reactive
The easy way to understand it is see the reactive areas as cubes on their edges--strongly reacting
Sort of like wood blocks standing on edge verses lying on their sides forming a flat surface.
I forget, but it sounds like a redux reaction involving ferric (3) to ferrous (2) iron occuring most on the exposed surfaces.
The metalic crystal structure of atoms of the alloyed metals also changes on compression.
<< <i>
<< <i>It is the metallic crystal structure that is different and which produces differing degrees of hardness. >>
----------------- Pretty close. The cubic structure of "case hardened" metal is less reactive The easy way to understand it is see the reactive areas as cubes on their edges--strongly reacting Sort of like wood blocks standing on edge verses lying on their sides forming a flat surface. I forget, but it sounds like a redux reaction involving ferric (3) to ferrous (2) iron occuring most on the exposed surfaces. The metalic crystal structure of atoms of the alloyed metals also changes on compression. >>
Morgannutt,
I haven't looked it up but I don't think there is any iron in a buffalo nickel.
The term "compression" bothers me. What we are really talking about here is stress/strain like I discussed in my previous post. I'll back up with some of the basic metalurgy/ME behind my previous post. Higher pressure on a metal causes higher stress. When stress is applied, the metal moves, or strains. When the stress exceeds yield stress for the material, the material yields or deforms. This must happen for the die to make a permanent change in the planchet. I think stresses (pressures) under the die are probably well in excess of 100,000 PSI.
The deeper parts get yielded more because they experience more stress (pressure or as others like to call it "compression"). But indeed, the metal isn't compressed, it is yielded.
The lattice structure argument is a more academic term applied to my grain boundary discussion which is a more metalurgical term.
As for what the likely chemicals are, I'd say nitric acid is a good guess as it probably eats at the grain boundaries and reveals them.
Cheers,
Mr Science
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It is the metallic crystal structure that is different and which produces differing degrees of hardness. >>
----------------- Pretty close. The cubic structure of "case hardened" metal is less reactive The easy way to understand it is see the reactive areas as cubes on their edges--strongly reacting Sort of like wood blocks standing on edge verses lying on their sides forming a flat surface. I forget, but it sounds like a redux reaction involving ferric (3) to ferrous (2) iron occuring most on the exposed surfaces. The metalic crystal structure of atoms of the alloyed metals also changes on compression. >>
Morgannutt,
I haven't looked it up but I don't think there is any iron in a buffalo nickel.
The term "compression" bothers me. What we are really talking about here is stress/strain like I discussed in my previous post. I'll back up with some of the basic metalurgy/ME behind my previous post. Higher pressure on a metal causes higher stress. When stress is applied, the metal moves, or strains. When the stress exceeds yield stress for the material, the material yields or deforms. This must happen for the die to make a permanent change in the planchet. I think stresses (pressures) under the die are probably well in excess of 100,000 PSI.
The deeper parts get yielded more because they experience more stress (pressure or as others like to call it "compression"). But indeed, the metal isn't compressed, it is yielded.
The lattice structure argument is a more academic term applied to my grain boundary discussion which is a more metalurgical term.
As for what the likely chemicals are, I'd say nitric acid is a good guess as it probably eats at the grain boundaries and reveals them.
Cheers,
Mr Science >>
Like I said, I'm no scientist - but I did used to make jewelry. I know that Silver hardens with "working", smoething to do with change in crystalline structure. I know that many other metals change with "working" - I would assume (!) nickel would be among those many. If I consider the process of striking a coin with intense force and the resulting pressure to be "working" the metal - hence causing a change in the crystalline structure - then I can imagine that a reactive agent applied to areas of the coin composed of differing crystalline structure would show a contrast. It appears that Nic-a-Date is such a reactive agent.
Ergo I agree with Mr. Science
Though there is no iron listed in the alloy of Buffalo Nickels, there may be traces. As well, if the nickel alloy reacts with the Nic-a-Date such that the reaction causes a differing reduction of the ferric (3) to ferrous (2) iron in the Nic-a-Date, the resulting contrast could make the date apparent, at least for a while - as mentioned by a previous poster - and I quote: "I started my Buffalo Nickel set as a teenager with Nic-A-Date. (Most of the "rarities" I restored in the '70s again have invisible dates under a discoloerd spot.)".
Ergo I agree with Morgannut2
I'm just agreeable tonight, neh?
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Why would the acid work better on CuNi? Well, I would think it comes down to wear and reactivity of the metal. When the Buffalo nickel is worn, the surface disturbance is overwhelmingly on the devices, over the fields. Perhaps it even accepts a coating that chemically insulates it better? In any event, I think the difference in the surface disturbance and coating (build up of oils from skin, ... higher and penetrated more on devices) is the key.
Well, my credibility as a physicist isn't too relevant here as I did not do material science as a specialty. But this is what I can figure out and only guess at as much as the next guy. It has fascinated me peripherally too as I used the stuff on dateless Buffalos as a youth myself quite a bit.
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<< <i> I forget, but it sounds like a redux reaction involving ferric (3) to ferrous (2) iron occuring most on the exposed surfaces.
I haven't looked it up but I don't think there is any iron in a buffalo nickel. >>
The chemical in Nic-a-Date is reduced...The ferric (III) ion picks up an electron from either the nickel (most likely) or copper in the coin and is reduced to a ferrous (II) ion. This is how the metal is dissolved to make the date visible. I still say it has something to do with grain structures in the coin from the minting process.
Collector of US Small Size currency, Atlanta FRNs, and Georgia nationals since 1977. Researcher of small size US type - seeking serial number data for all FRN star notes, Series 1928 to 1934-D. Life member SPMC.
Now that I think about it, isn't ferric chloride solution what has been used in the past (and maybe still is) to etch circuit boards? In that application, the solution ate away copper coatings to leave the protected circuit lines...
When I posted that I thought NikaDate was nitric acid.... it was just a guess on my part I had never used the date restorer before, and did not even know what color it was. So awhile back I obtained so nitric acid, in various normalities, to try to experiement on some dateless nickels.... and it would not work!!! All the nitric acid did was rough up the surface evenly with no date showing up, no matter how long I left the solution on.
A fascinating subject to me.... I must not have much of a life.......! LOL
Actually, all of you are incorrect.
I just called the manufacturer and they explained it to me this way:
"Nic-A-Date contains millions of well trained micro-organisms very similar to sea-monkeys, only smaller. These organisms are trained for approximately 2-3 months each before being bottled and shipped. Their training focuses mainly on removing metal through the use of their tiny little teeth. The organisms are also trained to detect very minor surface changes. As such, they are able to physically remove the metal at the boundary of surface depth changes near each numeral, thereby revealing a date. This clearly explains why an old, expired bottle of Nic-A-Date will not work (the poor little fellas are dead), whereas a fresh bottle works very well (they are fresh out of training and healthy)."
Take some ice-cubes and melt them. The resulting mass of the water is less than the ice cubes!!
AMAZING!
I discovered that before I started collecting coins at the age of 6 or 7!
Solids and liquids are functionally non-compressible.