Very informative blog on Coin Rarities' website about colonials

Longacre

I was taking a look at the Coin Rarities website, and there is a new blog about colonials. Because I am still in the early stages of learning about these, I found this blog to be particularly interesting. I attached a link below. In the meantime, I have the following questions/comments. Does anyone have any additional thoughts about the blog? Colonials are become less and less mysterious to me (but, as Dentuck says, that Elephant token "looks hell bent on fury", and thus, I am still rightly somewhat frightened by collecting these pieces).

(1) How much collector demand is there for the "literally hundreds of varieties" of certain colonials?
(2) Will that demand have any influence over whether the TPGs will start to provide variety attributions? If so, do you think "real" colonial collectors would see this as something useful, or do the old-timers do their own attributions? Would this service be just for the passive colonial collector?
(3) How is the pricing structure determined for varieties (if there is no solid pricing structure for colonials in general, as the article indicates)? Wouldn't the pricing of the base coin need to be less fluid before a pricing market can be established for a varitiety of a particular coin?
(4) If the grading by the TPGs is so inconsistent, what is the purpose of getting colonials slabbed, other than for authenticty? Again, do "real" colonial collectors avoid slabbed coins (or otherwise crack them out almost immediately)?
(5) Would a single, definitive book be good for the colonial market? I hear that Whitman is putting one together, but I have not heard of the deadline for it. Perhaps this is one of the final frontiers in numismatics where someone can emerge as the authority in a field by being the first to write the definitive book?


Coin Rarities

RYK

Cool, another Coin Rarities Online thread.

to CCU.

Perhaps this is one of the final frontiers in numismatics where someone can emerge as the authority in a field by being the first to write the definitive book?

Longacre, I thought that I just sent you the definitive book.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>(4) If the grading by the TPGs is so inconsistent, what is the purpose of getting colonials slabbed, other than for authenticty? Again, do "real" colonial collectors avoid slabbed coins (or otherwise crack them out almost immediately)? >>



Hey, I'm famous! I wrote the article in question and I'll take a shot at question 4:

The grading inconsistencies exist primarily between raw coins described in catalogs vs PCGS grading vs NGC grading, as different standards are being used.

Additionaly, colonials, whatever standard you are using, are harder to grade. The various series (Mass Silver, NJ Coppers, Washingtonia) have significantly different striking characteristics, planchet issues, etc., and the level of subjectivity, or rather the grader's biases toward particular characteristics, are more profound than in other series.

Still, individually, catalogers, PCGS and NGC are no signficantly more or less consistent on colonials, IMO, than lots of grading we see by any of them in other series.

The purpose of getting coins slabbed is the same as the purpose in any other area of numismatics, which I think are pretty well documented.

As for real colonial collectors avoiding slabbed coins, I would answer this way: There are plenty of traditionalists in colonials who believe slabs are evil, just as there are in early federal copper coins. But the number of traditionalists who shun slabs is decreasing every day, and the overwhelming majority of new entrants favor slabs. At the higher end of the market, there are a handful of players buying raw colonials and their average age is, respectfully, perhaps 65+. I believe that eventually the majority of higher end coins will be in slabs.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>Cool, another Coin Rarities Online thread.

to CCU.

>>



Touche' RYK - but be careful - or I'll trump your next cut bid purely for sport.

Oldnewbie

<< <i>Still, individually, catalogers, PCGS and NGC are no signficantly more or less consistent on colonials, IMO, than lots of grading we see by any of them in other series. >>



I have four PCGS Connecticuts. Two of them are wrong. One is labeled 1787 Draped Bust Left but it is an 11.2-K Mailed Bust Left. The other is labeled 1788 Draped Bust Left but is actually a 1787 33.2-Z.5.

RYK

Touche' RYK - but be careful - or I'll trump your next cut bid purely for sport.

I do not do cut bids anymore.

(BTW, I am about to post a thread with a coin purchased from DW, so I thought I would give you fair warning.

Longacre

<< <i>Touche' RYK - but be careful - or I'll trump your next cut bid purely for sport.

I do not do cut bids anymore.

(BTW, I am about to post a thread with a coin purchased from DW, so I thought I would give you fair warning. >>




One more DW post, and I'm going to flood the boards with QDB love-fest threads.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>

<< <i>Still, individually, catalogers, PCGS and NGC are no signficantly more or less consistent on colonials, IMO, than lots of grading we see by any of them in other series. >>



I have four PCGS Connecticuts. Two of them are wrong. One is labeled 1787 Draped Bust Left but it is an 11.2-K Mailed Bust Left. The other is labeled 1788 Draped Bust Left but is actually a 1787
33.2-Z.5. >>



In the last two weeks, I have had an English Halfpenny labeled by PCGS as a Farthing and a Farthing labeled as a Halfpenny, as well as a 1739 Mexican coin labelled as a 1736 coin.

None of these are 'colonials' per se, which suggests that the issue of accuracy is a problem, but it is a general one, not one restricted to colonial coins.

novacaesarea

Hi All,

Well I guess I am in that "tradionalist camp" and collect raw colonials by type and variety. I thought I would throw my two pence into this discussion just to give the other side a voice.

First, I read and very much enjoyed CCUs commentary on colonial conage this month. For the most part, I agree with what was written. I do have some observations though.

First, I don't care how anyone collects coins.... slabbed, unslabbed, toned, not toned.....to each his or her own. In fact so long as there is some rhyme or reason to it, I enjoy looking at a collection of almost anything including problem-free VF Lincoln pennies. So I don't think there is that much resentment between the two worlds or at least there is less of it.

Secondly, I am equally willing to buy a beautiful original colonial in a slab or from an old time collection hidden away for decades. So its the coin not the slab that I buy. In fact, I have purchased several slabbed coins over the years and barely looked at the grade. Having said that, I usually (no...always...) remove the coin from the slab for my collection ..but the point is I buy both.

The problem I DO have is the continual reconditioning..conserving...and general fooling with the coins each time one gets submitted or resubmitted. Now I am no boyscout and know that coins of all types have been dipped, waxed, whatever for a long time. But colonials seemed to have been relatively immune to that. And because they are older, trickier, and come in many shapes and colors, it seems easier and in fact more compelling these days for people to alter the coins beofre submitting them to the grading services which don't seem to know any better.

Unfortunately there are a lot fewer Colonials out there than Federal coins. So the population of unaltered, original and beautiful Colonial coins is deminishing at about the same rate that slabbing of Colonials is escalting. I find that disconcerting for the long term. Also, the metals that were used in some of these Colonials like tin, brass, pewter, Bath metal, unpure copper or whatever may have different reactions to chemical treatment than modern silver or copper coinage. In time, that may turn out to surprise a few purchasers.

So are all slabbed coins "conserved'..no, but looking beyond the slabbed grade for originality is essential to me. And essential to preserving these truely scarce coins for the future.

So Longacre, I hope this does not cause you to retreat from your pursuit of Colonial coins as I think they are the true caviar of collecting (I think Walter Breen said that), but I do think it is just one more important thing that the well informed collector of Colonials must consider and i hope insist on in the future.

OK, I am off my Colonial era soap box.

novacaesarea

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>The problem I DO have is the continual reconditioning..conserving...and general fooling with the coins each time one gets submitted or resubmitted. Now I am no boyscout and know that coins of all types have been dipped, waxed, whatever for a long time. But colonials seemed to have been relatively immune to that. And because they are older, trickier, and come in many shapes and colors, it seems easier and in fact more compelling these days for people to alter the coins beofre submitting them to the grading services which don't seem to know any better. >>



All true, sadly.

AgMe

<< <i>

<< <i>Cool, another Coin Rarities Online thread.

to CCU.

>>



Touche' RYK - but be careful - or I'll trump your next cut bid purely for sport. >>