THIS MARKET HAS GOTTEN GOOFY...gone the wayof baseball cards
hootchiegirl
Posts: 222
don't you think with the tampering of slabs and the at nt debate that this market is untrustworthy and the whole purpose of sight unseen grading has lost it's somewhat shaky credibility
0
Comments
<< <i>don't you think with the tampering of slabs and the at nt debate that this market is untrustworthy and the whole purpose of sight unseen grading has lost it's somewhat shaky credibility >>
So this has gone from a handful of first generation, no-longer-in-production slabs on which the doctor made little or no money to shaking the whole foundation of the market. What a bunch of freakin' drama queens on the board.
<< <i>would you buy a slab at bid sight unseen???? >>
In a word, NO!! But the recent events have no impact on my decision.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>right o .......but the purpose of slabs is TO FACILITATE SIGHT UNSEEN TRANSACTIONS TO RELY ON THE CREDIBILITY OF THE GRADING COMPANY FOR AN HONEST ASSESMENT AS TO THE COINS GRADE >>
Yes, at the TPG's inception.
I trust myself, usually, and I have no desire to pay more for the sanctity of plastic.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>how long before some one is able to change the grade on a slab?????? did you ever think about that????? change a 4 to a 5 or a 5 to a 6 it is not farfetched >>
At least if you are going to chit stir, do it with some intelligence
The reports of the demise of coin collecting have been greatly exaggerated.
Purely sight-unseen trading went the way of the Dodo bird... That's why Wall Street is no longer into investment coins.
Could you imaging even one mid-sized hedge fund in coins?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>YOU FOLKS DON'T GET IT.. the purpose yes the PURPOSE... of coin grading is to facilitate the sight unseen trading. if you buy an ms 66 morgan you should get an ms 66 morgan no ifs ands or buts,,,,,and without this the whole GRADING SCHEME is moot... >>
I do get it, I can just think realistically. Grading is subjective- one man's 66 is another's 65.
I am comfortable with raw coins, myself.
Others might not be.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>amanda do you have to reply to EVERTHING on this board...get a life >>
Brilliant response. I think I might cry.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
I must admit I also find it hard not to respond to nonsense like this thread. And if you don't think it's nonsense, let's see how many sight-unseen coin buyers chime in on this thread.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> amanda do you have to reply to EVERTHING on this board
I must admit I also find it hard not to respond to nonsense like this thread. And if you don't think it's nonsense, let's see how many sight-unseen coin buyers chime in on this thread. >>
I agree about the nonsense bit, but I think she was referring to my playing "point-counter point."
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>Try going into a dealer and buying a 65 slab and telling them you only want to pay 64 price because the grade does not warrant a 65...nuff said.............................................. grow up folks......and if slabs can be at inside the holder.all bets are off >>
A coin like that will not bring 65 money. TPGs do make mistakes. The greysheet (bluesheet, whatever) is not the end all price guide.
I do not anticipate ever being in that situation, however.
As for AT inside the slab, no comment. Read the thread(s).
-Amanda
(With no life)
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
<< <i>don't you think with the tampering of slabs and the at nt debate that this market is untrustworthy and the whole purpose of sight unseen grading has lost it's somewhat shaky credibility >>
In theory, the advent of third party grading services was meant to facilitate this very purpose. In theory in it an excellent idea, in practice....well, we know it doesn't work quite like that and never will. The TPG services present new challenges to numismatics that did not exist before, but they removed many, many more abuses and deceptions than the problems they have created. So many more in fact that the hobby has responded to these services as is reflected in the premiums coins garner in the holder, and the confidence in the liquidy of coins holdered by respectable grading companies.
It isn't perfect, but I will take the problems of Third party grading any day over the problems of haggling over subjective grading between buyer and seller while the coin is raw.
My problem, is I often don't see the coin until the return has lapsed. That's my fault. They clearly stated 3 days. Just my thoughts. jws
<< <i>Try going into a dealer and buying a 65 slab and telling them you only want to pay 64 price because the grade does not warrant a 65...nuff said.............................................. grow up folks......and if slabs can be at inside the holder.all bets are off >>
I'm fully grown, and I still think that you are mostly wrong. If a seller (dealer OR collector) has a 65 slab and wants to sell it sight unseen - that person is going to be offered some portion of Bluesheet, versus a price based on, say, the sight-seen Graysheet. Much closer in most cases to 64 money.
Most of what I have absorbed about coin pricing, both here and in the real world, has taught me that if a seller wants to sell a coin sight unseen (unless sold by a trusted dealer or trusted fellow collector), it's often a coin that is low end for the grade. Sometimes you do get surprised, but nowdays, rarely.
The advent of slabs created: 1) a 3rd party, objectified assesment of a coin, subject to the legitimacy of the grading company and their standards, and 2) a nifty protective, supposedly tamper-proof container for the coin. While, as I have said before, a chief objective in the creation of third party grading was to support sight unseen trading, the sight unseen trading comes at a substantial discount in the real world. Objectification does not mean perfection; hence the pricing differential. Most collectors want to trust their own eyes, or the eyes of their peers, and not just the number writ in plastic.
On the subject of toning in the holder... I'm afraid that the subject will be met with a yawn by most of the collecting community. IMHO, the big money collectors will still trust their advisors, and the small money collectors won't care. Most of the mid-range collectors who are most impacted might be shaken for a while, but it's a tempest in a teapot. In the big picture, AT coins are a fart in the wind.
And leave Amanda alone. She's added more to this community than you have. You're an idiot for saying what you did - why don't you leave "So many men" alone so you'll have "more time"?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>
<< <i>Try going into a dealer and buying a 65 slab and telling them you only want to pay 64 price because the grade does not warrant a 65...nuff said.............................................. grow up folks......and if slabs can be at inside the holder.all bets are off >>
A coin like that will not bring 65 money. TPGs do make mistakes. The greysheet (bluesheet, whatever) is not the end all price guide.
I do not anticipate ever being in that situation, however.
As for AT inside the slab, no comment. Read the thread(s).
-Amanda
(With no life) >>
Amanda -- You sure have caught on fast on what is important and what is not. The price guides are guides for those who seem to need them. TPG grades are grades for those who seem to need them. If someone has a 64 in a 65 holder and won't settle for less than 64 money, they can find another customer. All of the tools (TPGs, CDN, ...) are great and have measurably helped advance the hobby but don't define the hobby.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Try going into a dealer and buying a 65 slab and telling them you only want to pay 64 price because the grade does not warrant a 65...nuff said.............................................. grow up folks......and if slabs can be at inside the holder.all bets are off >>
A coin like that will not bring 65 money. TPGs do make mistakes. The greysheet (bluesheet, whatever) is not the end all price guide.
I do not anticipate ever being in that situation, however.
As for AT inside the slab, no comment. Read the thread(s).
-Amanda
(With no life) >>
Amanda -- You sure have caught on fast on what is important and what is not. The price guides are guides for those who seem to need them. TPG grades are grades for those who seem to need them. If someone has a 64 in a 65 holder and won't settle for less than 64 money, they can find another customer. All of the tools (TPGs, CDN, ...) are great and have measurably helped advance the hobby but don't define the hobby. >>
Well put. Exactly - they will find another customer.
Didn't I read here that overgraded coin in slabs are sometimes referred to as being in "coffins"? I have one dealer friend who calls them "Ebay specials" - rather derisively.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Sight unseen grading has never had any credibility with me-I must see the coin before i agree or disagree with the grade.
slabs are meant to facilitate sight unseen trading........is it drama???
While that was the intent originally, i dont think it was ever reality.
would you buy a slab at bid sight unseen????
Never--i would never buy any coin sight unseen at bid or even 1/2 of bid. I must see the coin. Period.
It is my opinion that all coins in slabs will eventually be correctly graded or overgraded as all the undergraded and even some correctly graded coins will be broken out and resubmitted until they are either correctly graded or overgraded. No one would break out an overgraded coin for fear of not being able to get it overgraded later. JMHO. Bob
I will take the problems of haggling over subjective grading of raw coins any day over third party grading..Usually this just means haggling over the price- not the grade. Bob
Nice idea but isn't true.
Jerry
Never. Always buy the coin and not the holder. There are some real dogs in high grade holders. Just take a look at some of the Washingtons from the Omaha Bank Hoard. Buying one of those sight unseen would lead to diappointment 9 out of 10 times IMO. I don't think slabs were ever intended to be a sight unseen way of trading or buying coins.
Dennis
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
<< <i>
<< <i>don't you think with the tampering of slabs and the at nt debate that this market is untrustworthy and the whole purpose of sight unseen grading has lost it's somewhat shaky credibility >>
So this has gone from a handful of first generation, no-longer-in-production slabs on which the doctor made little or no money to shaking the whole foundation of the market. What a bunch of freakin' drama queens on the board. >>
Same thing I was thinking, this whole Forum was turned on end. A lot of Drama Queens.............
TorinoCobra71
"Has plenty of 1st Generation PCGS slabs and am proud of them"
<< <i>don't you think with the tampering of slabs and the at nt debate that this market is untrustworthy and the whole purpose of sight unseen grading has lost it's somewhat shaky credibility >>
Yep.... Confidence is waning.
<< <i>Hey, Amanda- welcome to the "Ain't Got No Life" Club. You'll find yourself in good company!
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
just imagine cracking out a $10,000 coin and placing a $500 coin in the fresh counterfiet shell with the old tag!!!! that represents real liability for PCGS. this recent fiasco where the coin is blatantly AT'd inside the shell shouldn't prove as troublesome and is probably less widespread than many assume. it would take quite a bit of practice/skill/LUCK to get a coin to tone inside a shell with a pattern and type of tone that mimmicks reality. also, since the process is known to take place i doubt PCGS would bear any responsiblity whatsoever.
<< <i>right o .......but the purpose of slabs is TO FACILITATE SIGHT UNSEEN TRANSACTIONS TO RELY ON THE CREDIBILITY OF THE GRADING COMPANY FOR AN HONEST ASSESMENT AS TO THE COINS GRADE >>
I thought the purpose was to get the rush you get when you bust up the slab to put the coin in your Dansco 7070.
<< <i>In theory, the advent of third party grading services was meant to facilitate this very purpose. In theory in it an excellent idea, in practice....well, we know it doesn't work quite like that and never will. >>
Right. Take a decent or better PCGS or NGC certified coin. Put it up twice on eBay -- once with good pictures, one with no pictures. Let's see how the two sale prices compare.
<< <i> will take the problems of haggling over subjective grading of raw coins any day over third party grading..Usually this just means haggling over the price- not the grade. Bob >>
Bob knows something that the original poster doesn't know.
Do not be naive to believe that the coin market could never end up like the baseball card market. As time goes by, TPG might be the curse of collecting. Eventually most 'good' coins will be graded, so there will be no mystery as to what is out there. If scandal then hits the TPG(s), the market is screwed. Remember folks this is a hobby and to some a profession, but it is still just a hobby to most. Now who collects beenie babies?
Is that an ipple?!!!
Jim
very interesting. there are certainly parallels to what the US mint is doing these days. let me ask you a follow up question: how did old, rare baseball cards do in that crash? Did the Honus Wagners, Babe Ruths, and Mickey Mantles decline too, and are they still down? Or was/is it the new, common junk that suffered most?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Or was/is it the new, common junk that suffered most? >>
The "new common junk" was never worth anything to begin with.
<< <i>
very interesting. there are certainly parallels to what the US mint is doing these days. let me ask you a follow up question: how did old, rare baseball cards do in that crash? Did the Honus Wagners, Babe Ruths, and Mickey Mantles decline too, and are they still down? Or was/is it the new, common junk that suffered most? >>
First off it should be remembered that virtually all baseball cards would be considered modern junk if
they were coins. Secondly drawing parallels to coins is likely spurious at best.
When these markets collapsed it was the result of speculation. This is virtually always the cause but
in this case it was speculation largely caused by the proliferation of new issues and their tendency to
make large profits very quickly. All the cards lost much of their value though the rarities did survive a
little better and the older rarities, better yet. Also the rarities have recovered much more ground than
other cards. Condition has become critical in baseball cards also, so high grade cards have recovered
most of their losses and then some.
Regarding cards as modern junk lol.
Cards were not really a hot commodity until 1986, 1987, 1988 and esp. 1989 when Upper Deck came on the scene and totally blew away the other companies with their design, implied scarcity and higher quality cards..in those boom years the market prices soared astronomically. Huge explosion of price guides, dealers, auctions etc.
"Vintage" cards range from tobacco cards up through and including topps and fleer in the 1960's. Even some of the 1970's cards are seen as old, vintage cards.
<< <i>
very interesting. there are certainly parallels to what the US mint is doing these days. let me ask you a follow up question: how did old, rare baseball cards do in that crash? Did the Honus Wagners, Babe Ruths, and Mickey Mantles decline too, and are they still down? Or was/is it the new, common junk that suffered most? >>
The reason these "parallels" don't really apply to moderns is that most "modern" coins are
not in any way affected by a proliffereation of issues. There were no "for collector only" coins
issued between 1965 and 1982. Even when these coins made their return there were limited
numbers of new issues in most years.
Even drawing parallels to the ultramoderns doesn't work simply because many of these coins
were issued and are being used for the purpose intended; circulating coinage. Bubblegum had
become an afterthought in the issuance of baseball cards and few cards were issued with gum.
Yes, it is true that unlimited new issues could in the future destroy these markets but they can't
do it in a vacuum. It would require that people try to get rich quick and that this mentality will
spread. It would require that the mint continues to offer large numbers of new products beyond
the market's ability to absorb them. While this is a real danger, and we may well be pproaching
such a thing, we are hardly there yet.
There are many more areas of the market where speculation might be a current concern rather
than a potential one.
<< <i>actually the new common junk came out hot, sold for strong money quickly, then totally dumped. the only time to make any money on new material was the first couple of weeks, then a month later you blew it out for cost. the older cards held up just fine. quality, vintage, nostalgic stuff has consistently remained popular and valuable. >>
I'm hardly an expert on the baseball card market and would defer to your knowledge but
this is not my experience. I tried to sell a large collection for a third party shortly after these
markets tanked. There was nothing newer than 5 years old and many of the cards went back
to the early '60's with a few lower grade ones from the '50's.
I was offered pennies on the dollar by various dealers. Many of these cards were $10 to $40
ones which took the brunt of the hit but I could find no dealer willing to pay more and most were
wholly unmotivated to buy at all.
Yes, I know the $5,000 cards could be sold at little discount but this collection didn't have anything
like that.
<< <i>amanda do you have to reply to EVERTHING on this board...get a life >>
Pathetic. It's it just too hard to be nice to people?
Buffalo Nickel Wantlist
Circulated TypeSet Wantlist
<< <i>
<< <i>amanda do you have to reply to EVERTHING on this board...get a life >>
Brilliant response. I think I might cry.
-Amanda >>
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870