Wanted: Plastic Engineer w/ Hologram experience

SUPERCARCOINS

This would be the mother of all "the sky is falling " scenarios .

And by God , you fellers can pooh-pooh the concept all you want

but it is HIGHLY possible that slabs are being counterfieted , the holograms are being printed

and the inserts used are real - simply broken out of real slabs .

foodude

the inserts used are real - simply broken out of real slabs

But dude, PCGS pays 50 cents a peice for the inserts

ABC123

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive---Rasputin

Aethelred

<< <i>Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive---Rasputin >>



Yes, William "Rasputin" Shakespeare!

Coinosaurus

I think eventually the services will have to "fingerprint" and photo every coin that comes in.

MacCrimmon

<< <i>This would be the mother of all "the sky is falling " scenarios .

And by God , you fellers can pooh-pooh the concept all you want

but it is HIGHLY possible that slabs are being counterfieted , the holograms are being printed

and the inserts used are real - simply broken out of real slabs . >>




Take your pick of which generation of TPG slab you would like me to reproduce. For a low 5-figure range any plastics guy can take any TPG plastic slab and tool die steel which would produce an indetectable counterfeit. I will not divulge any details as to the exact process, but I have over 25 years experience reverse engineering electrical hardware/software as well as highly intricate plastic enclosures for automotive and industrial applications.

Holograms? Can't say as I've ever done any of those.

Good thing my name isn't MOC-Crimmon, eh!!!

lordmarcovan

<< <i><< Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive---Rasputin >>



Yes, William "Rasputin" Shakespeare! >>



Try Sir Walter Scott.

Coxe

Buy the coin, not the holder. I don't give a flying **** what PCGS, NGC, ANACS, .... put on the label unless I am selling. I buy a coin not a freaking piece of plastic.

Cam40

they oughta jus counter-stamp the grade right on the coin.
that would solve everything

UncleWiggly

You've already stated you know one of the best coin doctors in the business. Now you tell us this scenario. You have something on your conscience?



Jerry

Myqqy

Take your pick of which generation of TPG slab you would like me to reproduce. For a low 5-figure range any plastics guy can take any TPG plastic slab and tool die steel which would produce an indetectable counterfeit.

Coppernicus

Shakespeare:

“Like one
Who having into truth, by telling of it,
Made such a sinner of his memory,
To credit his own lie.”

Mike

Steve27

"... but it is HIGHLY possible that slabs are being counterfieted..."

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away - Stephen Stills

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Good thing my name isn't MOC-Crimmon, eh!!! >>



or MOC-Criminal!!

fivecents

<< <i>This would be the mother of all "the sky is falling " scenarios . >>

Yeah, and robots are stealing my luggage.

96eagle

Has anyone seen a reverse engineered PCGS holder? Are they really out there? This is scary stuff. I have some key coins in PCGS holders, they appear legitimate, but from reading this post, I wonder. Hopefully PCGS can remedy this problem, and keep the hobby from falling apart.
96eagle

Bruceswar

<< <i>Buy the coin, not the holder. I don't give a flying **** what PCGS, NGC, ANACS, .... put on the label unless I am selling. I buy a coin not a freaking piece of plastic. >>




I agree 100%

messydesk

Heaven forbid people actually learn how to evaluate coins on their own.

PerryHall

If a bunch of overgraded, counterfeit, cleaned, etc. coins showed up on the market in PCGS slabs, don't you think PCGS would track down the originators and prosecute them? It would be very easy to trace the bad slabs back to their source. Someone counterfeited their first style slab soon after they first started and he was quickly caught, prosecuted, and sent to prison. That's why PCGS added the hologram and other security features to their slabs.

MrHalfDime

"Hopefully PCGS can remedy this problem, and keep the hobby from falling apart."

The hobby somehow survived before the TPGs, and I believe it will continue long after the grading services self destruct. No need for such hyperbole and paranoia.

"I buy a coin not a freaking piece of plastic."

Words to live by, if a bit unrefined.

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive---Rasputin"

No, it was Sir Walter Scott.

ANACONDA

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you...




















Boo!

MrEureka

I haven't seen or heard of any counterfeit slabs of recent generations but the concern is legitimate. Sooner or later, somebody will pull off this scam. Therefore, if you're not 100% comfortable with the grade on the holder, and if you decide to buy it anyway, it would be wise to ask the seller to put the serial number of the slab on the invoice. This will improve your odds of getting recourse if the holder turns out to be fake.

MrEureka

If a bunch of overgraded, counterfeit, cleaned, etc. coins showed up on the market in PCGS slabs, don't you think PCGS would track down the originators and prosecute them?

If somebody tries this, they are going to use attractive "just missed" coins, not obvious trash.

topstuf

Obviously a cheap Lebanese cast slab.

coindeuce

<< <i> If a bunch of overgraded, counterfeit, cleaned, etc. coins showed up on the market in PCGS slabs, don't you think PCGS would track down the originators and prosecute them?

If somebody tries this, they are going to use attractive "just missed" coins, not obvious trash. >>



But Andy, anything is possible, especially in a venue such as the "for all practical purposes" sight unseen market at sleazeBay. The obvious trash could be moved out of third tier holders and into first tier holders without too much effort, if you give any credence to the hypothetical(s) (finally, I get to use that word) posited here.

PerryHall

<< <i> If a bunch of overgraded, counterfeit, cleaned, etc. coins showed up on the market in PCGS slabs, don't you think PCGS would track down the originators and prosecute them?

If somebody tries this, they are going to use attractive "just missed" coins, not obvious trash. >>



When a bunch of just missed coins start showing up at PCGS for grade reviews, don't you think they will notice something fishy is going on? When their slabs were first counterfeited in the late 1980's, the perpetrator put super slider saints and morgan dollars in his counterfeit slabs and he got caught. Don't you think after that episode that PCGS didn't put secret markers on their slabs to facilitate detecting counterfeits?

SUPERCARCOINS

<< <i>If a bunch of overgraded, counterfeit, cleaned, etc. coins showed up on the market in PCGS slabs, don't you think PCGS would track down the originators and prosecute them? It would be very easy to trace the bad slabs back to their source. Someone counterfeited their first style slab soon after they first started and he was quickly caught, prosecuted, and sent to prison. That's why PCGS added the hologram and other security features to their slabs. >>



You got about 10 million slabs out there - if the process was professionaly run , using inside security measures

extracted from a former grader

with high quality coins used and expertly

duplicated holders , with genuine inserts :

How would they be detected ?

You get potluck on a significent portion of the coins now submitted.........meaning PCGS has difficulty consistantly

grading coins in the first place .

Unless they photographed every coin graded [ hint] , it would be very hard to catch anyone in this process

SUPERCARCOINS

<< <i>You've already stated you know one of the best coin doctors in the business. Now you tell us this scenario. You have something on your conscience?



Jerry >>



i think MacCrimmon
has already stated here that it`s just a matter of money and means to make the practice a reality


He may not have expertise with holograms - but i am certian others do

arlea1957

<< <i>Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you...




Boo! >>






This line alone made my day.... now I just have to find a context/person to use it.....

SUPERCARCOINS

<< <i>

<< <i> If a bunch of overgraded, counterfeit, cleaned, etc. coins showed up on the market in PCGS slabs, don't you think PCGS would track down the originators and prosecute them?

If somebody tries this, they are going to use attractive "just missed" coins, not obvious trash. >>



When a bunch of just missed coins start showing up at PCGS for grade reviews, don't you think they will notice something fishy is going on? When their slabs were first counterfeited in the late 1980's, the perpetrator put super slider saints and morgan dollars in his counterfeit slabs and he got caught. Don't you think after that episode that PCGS didn't put secret markers on their slabs to facilitate detecting counterfeits? >>



not a bunch of slabs .........but a few spinkled here and there

and although you all seem very learned about grading , as Russ has said , there are a lot of people that trust the slabs

wholeheartedly , since they have little to no grading skills themselves .

Learning to grade all the diffrent types of coins takes decades of hands on experience- viewing thousands of

coins . VERY few people have those capabilities , and the one`s that do enjoy making 100`s of

thousands of dollars working for the TPG`s .

PerryHall

Unless you make a significant numer of fake slabs, it hardly seems to be worth the expense and effort. If you fake a small number of expensive coins, you will be more likely to get caught since these coins are more closely examined.

UncleWiggly

<< <i>Heaven forbid people actually learn how to evaluate coins on their own. >>



I see this type of statement all the time. I would like to know exacxtly what this type of statement actually means. Do you want people to have to enroll in a 10 year study program to learn how to evaluate a coin before they buy their first one? It takes time to become competent enough to evaluate your own coins properly. These type of statements are stupid.



Jerry

pontiacinf

p8nt said he wants to put his hat in the ring for the job

BAJJERFAN

<< Heaven forbid people actually learn how to evaluate coins on their own. >>



I see this type of statement all the time. I would like to know exacxtly what this type of statement actually means. Do you want people to have to enroll in a 10 year study program to learn how to evaluate a coin before they buy their first one? It takes time to become competent enough to evaluate your own coins properly. These type of statements are stupid.



I guess yer sposed to edicate cherself by lookin at slabbed coins and tryin to figger out what the graders saw. Or have smoeone who is sposed to be an expert hep yu out too.

jimjenson

its easier and cheaper than you think to make holders, we'll leave it at that.

{self edited}

jimjenson

an easy process

SUPERCARCOINS

<< <i>Unless you make a significant numer of fake slabs, it hardly seems to be worth the expense and effort. If you fake a small number of expensive coins, you will be more likely to get caught since these coins are more closely examined. >>



you pay a mule to unload a 30,000$ coin @ a coin show ..........

you set up phony sellers on ebay...........

there are plenty of greedy dealers to support a criminal network run by professional scammers-

don`t kid yourself

and as i said , there are millions of slabs - you seem to be missing the point-

the fake slabs would be blended into an ocean of already misgraded coins

with real inserts , why would a buyer suspect the holder to be fake if it`s virtualy indistinguable from

the real thing ? Again ; were talking MILLIONS of slabs.........

put a million slabs in a pile with a couple hundred fake ones sprinkled in -

then dig into the pile and find the fake ones ..............

SUPERCARCOINS

..........alrighty then ; seems like our "hypothetical " team is comming together !

"hypotheticly" p.m me if anyones into the manufacture of holograms

Conder101

<< <i>Has anyone seen a reverse engineered PCGS holder? >>


Here you go,





<< <i>I think eventually the services will have to "fingerprint" and photo every coin that comes in. >>


Like ANACS used to do.




<< <i>I haven't seen or heard of any counterfeit slabs of recent generations but the concern is legitimate. Sooner or later, somebody will pull off this scam. >>


No PCGS or NGC but counterfeit ICG shells were produced a litle over two years ago. They were not as far as weknow actualy used to create fake ICG slab and the people using the shells were spoted and the use of the shells was stopped immediately.




<< <i><< Heaven forbid people actually learn how to evaluate coins on their own. >>

I see this type of statement all the time. I would like to know exactly what this type of statement actually means. Do you want people to have to enroll in a 10 year study program to learn how to evaluate a coin before they buy their first one? It takes time to become competent enough to evaluate your own coins properly. These type of statements are stupid. >>


If they are going to spend amounts of money that it would seriously hurt them to lose then YES I think they should put in the time to learn what the heck they are doing. And as a general rule I think that people who do drop big money into coins without bothering to become competent to evaluate the coins themselves NEVER do become competent. And THAT is what I find to be stupid.

Coxe

<< <i>Unless you make a significant numer of fake slabs, it hardly seems to be worth the expense and effort. If you fake a small number of expensive coins, you will be more likely to get caught since these coins are more closely examined. >>



Exactly. I could only see the Chinese doing this. Per the expense, it just doesn't make sense. You could not do this with true rarities easily. If you cracked (low pop rarities), resubmitted and reused the tags, you would be ocompletely exposed. Too risky. More common coins don't make a lot of sense. Better to spend the same effort actually doing something for honest money.

SUPERCARCOINS

.......alrighty then , glad to learn you think it would not be profitable or practical.

You may now place your heads back into the sand

SUPERCARCOINS

.........Still seeking hologram specialist .

Good pay ,

jimjenson

http://www.signwarehouse.com/catalog_pdfs/2006_2_13.pdf

kranky

It's good to learn how to grade, but if people can get 10x the money for a coin slabbed one point higher AND experts could still disagree whether the grade is correct, then let's be realistic about it - faking slabs could be a very lucrative endeavor.

Having good grading skills is not a solution, unless we are going to claim there are no liner coins. Holograms are not a solution.

Folks, just look at how much money is at stake. Look at how many widgets (no disrespect intended) get bought and sold and bought and sold. If a scammer takes an MS65 $50 coin, puts it into a fake slab with a legit 66 insert to make it a $500 coin, does anyone really think that is going stick out like a sore thumb? Heck no. What if they use only just-missed coins? They will blend right in. You might not buy them for your personal collection if you're a good grader and examine them closely, but you wouldn't look at the coin and say "Something's wrong - this coin could never be in a legit 66 slab!"

supercarcoins wrote:


<< <i>there are plenty of greedy dealers to support a criminal network run by professional scammers- >>


Sadly, this is probably true. You could have an established dealer be the conduit to move the fakes into the market. As long as the coins are close and the inserts are legit, who knows how long it would work.

Face it, the technology exists, the money is big enough to make it appealing. Let's not put our heads in the sand. We better be on guard. If the premiums for one point higher weren't so outrageous, this wouldn't be an issue. But if experts can't agree on whether a coin is a 65 or a 66, but in a slab people are willing to pay 10x the money or more for the 66....

dorkkarl

<< <i>Someone counterfeited their first style slab soon after they first started and he was quickly caught, prosecuted, and sent to prison.. >>

i've heard this many times - got any links?

K S

TwoSides2aCoin

Dang..... people are planning on robbing banks, too. What's new ?
There're probably people right now devising ways to avoid taxes.


Got coins ? This thread needs pictures



in counterfeit plastic, this could be worth ten bucks

FullStrike

My how times have changed. We used to worry about conterfeited Coins. Now we worry about counterfeited plastic slabs?

What about counterfeited coins IN counterfeited slabs? Now THATS a REAL nightmare!

I'm thinking China. Lots of talented hardworking people over there.

Bryan1315

I think I understand what is being described here but want to confirm it. You are saying someone has like a lock MS-66 coin (no way the TPG can argue with this grade unless it is a upgrade) you crack this coin out and save the label, then you take a MS-63 coin of the same date and mint mark and place them in the "fake" holder and put the original ms-66 label in the plastic with the holder, then you resend the lock MS-66 back into the TPG and have it graded again, it will either come back MS-66 or heck even if it happens to come back MS-65 you repeat the process of cracking it out and saving the label. We all know that a specific coin can be submitted multiple times and come back with different grades. Anyway you then have 2 MS-63 coins (one in a MS-66 fake holder, and one in a MS-65 fake holder) and you finally get your MS-66 coin back in a MS-66 holder by the TPG and if the coin is the right coin you could have made thousands and thousands of dollars. Is this what is being described here or did I miss the whole boat on how I took the description to mean?

Conder101

Why does everyone keep thinking you have to use a real label? If you can fake the hologram you've got it made. The rest of the label is easy. So you find a coin that is expensive in 65 and much cheaper in 64. Buy 64's, put them in fake slabs with fake 65 labels but with the serial number of a REAL 65 coin. A long as you don't get stupid and try to pass a bunch of them at one show you can probably get away with it for some time. At least until several people all try to put it into their registry set. So you are going to want to try and stay with coins that are nice but probably not Registy set candidates. The mistake most people make when they try and think about a scam like this one is they try to come up with coins they can make a big killing on. That is a mistake because it means your scam will probably be revealed quickly. If you don't get greedy and take a smaller cut per coin you can probably keep it up for years and make considerably more money. It is just like if I was making a counterfeit coin. If I make a 64 red 09-SVDB everyone is going to want it slabbed and it will be scrutinized very closely and compared agianst the know die markers of the genuine coins I'll make a bundle on each I can sell but I won't sell many before it's spotted. But say I make a 64 Red 1929-D cent. I'll probably be able to move dozens, hundreds maybe even thousands before it gets caught. It isn't an extremely expensive coin so it isn't looked at as closely, and who knows all the genuine dies for the 29-D? Odds of selling them is high, and probably even of getting them into respected TPG slabs unless too many start coming into the service at the same time. That can be handled by producing a wide range of issues.

I really recommend reading Numismatic Forgery. It didn't have anything I didn't already know and hadn't thought out myself but I really liked the presentation. It should scare the pants off anyone who hasn't thought it through.

Shamika

<< <i>Wanted: Plastic Engineer w/ Hologram experience >>


As a plastics engineer for an engineering polymers company, I can tell you that counterfeiting the slab would be a piece of cake. All you need is a small injection molding machine, molds cut to match the inserts and the two slab halves, some polymethyl methacrylate, and a soft durometer polyurethane. The joining method for the slabs (ultrasonic wielding) is also no big deal. I'm not familiar with making holograms, but if this could also be duplicated, all bets are off.

Heck, the inserts shouldn't be very difficult to fake as well.

PawPaul

an interesting debate on the counterfeit slab issue ....