Much ado about nothing

rainbowroosie

The bottom line of dozens of threads about toned coins is "I don't like them and I can't tell AT from NT."

Soooo:

1. Don't buy toned coins if you don't like them.
2. Accept the fact that some toned coins are AT.
3. Accept the fact that some sellers deliberately alter coins to increase their value.
4. If you want to buy toned coins -- here's the biggie -- learn what is real from what is not real and learn how to grade them raw.

Now, is any of this startling??? I think not. Sellers have played with coins since collecting began to make them more appealing. What's the surprise??

How about brilliant coins??

1. Don't buy brilliant coins if you don't like them.
2. Accept the fact that some brilliant coins are dipped, artificially frosted, have mintmarks glued on, etc.
3. Accept the fact that some sellers deliberately alter coins to increase their value.
4. If you want to buy brilliant coins -- here's the biggie -- learn what is real from what is not real and learn how to grade them raw.

Hmmm....very similar between toned and brilliant problems????

Lastly, I've noted incredible shock and outrage that someone could tone a coin in an old PCGS holder....ENLIGHTENMENT:::: I've seen a spotted cameo proof Frankie dipped in an old holder come out immaculately white...

ABC123

A Fool and his Money are soon Separated--Shylock, Merchant of Venice !

dizzyfoxx

<< <i>A Fool and his Money are soon Separated--Shylock, Merchant of Venice ! >>



Absolutely! Whenever overly-dipped coins are involved.

rainbowroosie

"A Fool and his Money are soon Separated--Shylock, Merchant of Venice !"

Exactly my point -- learn what is real and learn how to grade...then you don't need anyone else's opinion...When I first began collecting, I was that "fool"...experience and a lot of studying moved me away from the "fool" category...experience included some painful and costly lessons on what toning is "real."

UncleWiggly

What's the deal here? Learning what's real is damn near impossible anymore.

rainbowroosie

Really, it is NOT...it takes time, study and effort, but then you can quickly dismiss 98% of AT coins as being AT...the other 2%, you PASS on...the critical factor is not being greedy...when you see a coin that's too good to be true, well, it is too good to be true...don't buy it...if you do, remember the risk/reward you seek....if you think a knowledgable dealer will sell you a $1000 coin for $20, you'll get what you deserve....

Learn the basic flow of colors and watch the ANA tape...

1jester

But, but, but....that would be too LOGICAL!! Not to mention too hard!! I prefer the easy life of the Kool-Aid punch bowl.

ziggy29

<< <i>Really, it is NOT...it takes time, study and effort, but then you can quickly dismiss 98% of AT coins as being AT...the other 2%, you PASS on... >>

But much of the "value proposition" for a premier TPG is so that less savvy buyers don't have to *do* this. If they become more savvy, the *need* for third party grading is greatly reduced. And if they do not become more savvy, then they are screwed as the slabs can't be trusted and they might as well get ripped off raw since they'll pay less.

TPGs weren't created because of the desire on the part of the 5% of collectors who already are (mostly) proficient in grading, authentication and detecting altered surfaces. They aren't the ones hurt most.

notwilight

<< <i>"A Fool and his Money are soon Separated--Shylock, Merchant of Venice !" Exactly my point -- learn what is real and learn how to grade...then you don't need anyone else's opinion...When I first began collecting, I was that "fool"...experience and a lot of studying moved me away from the "fool" category...experience included some painful and costly lessons on what toning is "real." >>




"...but memories of the orgy will last forever!!!"

There seems to be a prevailing notion that coin collecting should be different than anything else--there should be no need for buyers to beware and there should be no dishonest sellers. When one guy gets caught toning a few cheap coins all hell breaks loose. Coin collecting is no different than anything else. I'd say you'll get ripped of much more often having your car worked on, buying real estate, or any used item for that matter.

And one more thing to remember...there are others out there doing the same thing and they are likely among those screaming the loudest to hang the b*astard.

--Jerry

TomB

This is by far the best thread I have read in days on this, or most any, subject.

Look, folks, if anyone is determined to put his/her hard-earned money on the line, the least they can do is become educated about the niche. That typically means lots of work before any purchases are made, it typically means buying slowly over time and it typically means disqualifying the vast majority of coins available. If one puts in the work, time and discipline then one limits the downside many fold. Truly, it is just like anything else in life.

RedTiger

The circling of the wagons of toned coin collectors and dealers, and the denial is so strong it amazes me. The steady stream of AT coins showing up in the marketplace holdered and raw doesn't seem to phase them. Of course several of these folks in the wagons have a huge investment, and a huge ax to grind, so I weigh their words and actions accordingly. What are they going to say? All these years, all these coins have been a mistake? Not likely, not in two days, or two weeks, or even two years.

To say that a person can learn how to spot artificial toning and distinguish it from natural toning by watching the ANA video is naive. How old is the ANA video? It may already be well behind the curves as far as top coin doctors are concerned and will only give a collector a false sense of security. The doctors can buy videos and sometimes match diagnostic by diagnostic as was the case with the now famous AT Peace dollar. It is almost like saying a person can learn to grade in a few days by watching tapes and buying a grading guide and a loupe. Give me a break. Expert dealers and top professional graders have been and continue to be fooled at times by the top coin doctors. Yes, an amateur tone job can be spotted a mile away. However, these are rarely the ones getting into top tier holders.

That said, I think the title is appropiate because the recent events will only make a small impact on the market. Hopefully one outcome is that a few beginners will take a realistic view and avoid getting taken. At least educate themselves to the point where the worst amateur tone jobs can't get past them. That they can learn by watching the video. The rest can takes years of looking at coins and the coin doctors are a moving target not sitting ducks. Even expert often waffle, saying they are 80% certain that a coin is NT or AT, or 50%, or whatever.

It is almost the same deal with grading, a person can get a basic grasp in a short amount of time, but to do it consistently takes a long time and looking at a lot of coins. AT vs natural toning, dipped vs. original, usually takes more time and expertise than grading alone. Again, these are moving targets because the coin doctors test themselves every day when they send in their coins and are always trying to stay a step ahead.

/ Edit minor typos.

rainbowroosie

You missed my punchline -- when in the slightest doubt, PASS on the coin -- real toning looks like real toning. Questionable toning is for someone else to buy, not me.

Do not buy questionable coins...

BigMoose

rainbowroosie, outstanding post! If you like toned coins, do the bookwork and the legwork first. Look at as many coins in your areas of specialty as possible. This won't completely eliminate all mistakes, but it will drop your mistake rate to virtually negligible. As with anything else in life, there is a learning curve involved. Show me someone who says they have never made a mistake in purchasing a coin and I will show you someone who has never bought a coin.