AT, NT, Fraud and proving it
lloydmincy
Posts: 1,861 ✭
OOPS: I used the F word.
Remember the ANACONDA peace dollar that got into the NGC holder??
Remember the "blue" IHC proofs?
And now MOC and the "magic rainbow" Morgans overnight color change???
First off, everytime I see one of these threads, I am a FIRM believer that even the EXPERT dealers, TPG graders and the like still can NOT 100% tell the difference between AT and NT. If a coin gets "doctored" and then slabbed, so be it. The only way these "monster toned" coins will have stayed natural in the first place, is if NO ONE BUYS THEM. Such is not the case.
Taking AT coins a step further is the MOC case. Taking a coin OUT of its holder, recoloring it, and then placing it back in its SAME HOLDER is fraud in my eyes. What I dont understand is why would the "doctor" of these Morgans even do this if there was no incentive for him to do so??? He surely had an incentive, and we'll never know what it was/is. To me, this is no different than taking a coin that was slabbed, opening the holder (the rattler in this case) and then REPLACING it with a coin that was body-bagged.
But then you have to prove it. You never will be able to. There are 4 sides to every story. Maybe the pictures are wrong??? Maybe it was photoshopped?? Maybe the dates are wrong on the buys/sells??? Maybe it DID tone that way in a week!!! Etc. Etc.
It is the good detectives on these boards CATCHING the acts, and exposing it. But then what??? That peace dollar didn't slip through the cracks, but I bet some did. Blue-toned proof IHC's are selling because there are buyers that like them, (can't say I don't) and so one.
As long as there is a buyer. To many buyers, they all look pretty!!!
The AT vs. NT threads and opinions are old news. Buy what you like. Proving At or NT is beating the dead horse. But replacing coins in an existing holder after tampering with them is to me pushing the envelope.
I used to COUNT on the slab as driving more integrity in the coin market to verify authenticity and legitimacy. That is still the case today, but now I may have second thoughts about the coin being in the holder having been the one the TPG graders actually saw....
Remember the ANACONDA peace dollar that got into the NGC holder??
Remember the "blue" IHC proofs?
And now MOC and the "magic rainbow" Morgans overnight color change???
First off, everytime I see one of these threads, I am a FIRM believer that even the EXPERT dealers, TPG graders and the like still can NOT 100% tell the difference between AT and NT. If a coin gets "doctored" and then slabbed, so be it. The only way these "monster toned" coins will have stayed natural in the first place, is if NO ONE BUYS THEM. Such is not the case.
Taking AT coins a step further is the MOC case. Taking a coin OUT of its holder, recoloring it, and then placing it back in its SAME HOLDER is fraud in my eyes. What I dont understand is why would the "doctor" of these Morgans even do this if there was no incentive for him to do so??? He surely had an incentive, and we'll never know what it was/is. To me, this is no different than taking a coin that was slabbed, opening the holder (the rattler in this case) and then REPLACING it with a coin that was body-bagged.
But then you have to prove it. You never will be able to. There are 4 sides to every story. Maybe the pictures are wrong??? Maybe it was photoshopped?? Maybe the dates are wrong on the buys/sells??? Maybe it DID tone that way in a week!!! Etc. Etc.
It is the good detectives on these boards CATCHING the acts, and exposing it. But then what??? That peace dollar didn't slip through the cracks, but I bet some did. Blue-toned proof IHC's are selling because there are buyers that like them, (can't say I don't) and so one.
As long as there is a buyer. To many buyers, they all look pretty!!!
The AT vs. NT threads and opinions are old news. Buy what you like. Proving At or NT is beating the dead horse. But replacing coins in an existing holder after tampering with them is to me pushing the envelope.
I used to COUNT on the slab as driving more integrity in the coin market to verify authenticity and legitimacy. That is still the case today, but now I may have second thoughts about the coin being in the holder having been the one the TPG graders actually saw....
The Accumulator - Dark Lloyd of the Sith
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I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I thought it was common knowledge that coins in OGH holders tone? Didn't we all read the book called Coin Chemistry. There is a whole section in there where the guy shows the quality of each slab by toning coins inside the slabs. The PCGS rattlers, fatty NGC and old Anacs holders (I belive) allowed for the fastest toning. There was one example where the coins toned literally in a matter of hours.
I also saw a guy (lives in my area) tone coins inside an ACG old holder. He would put a coin in to an ACG holder, super glue it, and in a matter of days voila! The coin toned evenly (unlike coins that tone out of holders). Apparently something in super glue makes coins tone with a natural appearence, and being in a holder they tone evenly. He would then crack the holder and reuse it. I've see the work -- it's good.
BTW -- this is how one learns AT from NT. If you see enough AT, you will know what it looks like. I am overwhelmed by how many AT coins I see in dealers cases at my local coin shows, and a number of these coins are in holders.
The problem is that sometimes when I look at a coin and put it back, a dealer asks why. I say because I buy coins in holders just like raw, and the coin is AT. The holder around the coin means nothing to me other that a safer way of storing the coin. They mostly get offended like "what do you know...it's in a Class A holder" and immediately dismiss me.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>If you are going to bring Mae West into this, a picture of her is required >>
Oh, you meant a picture of a YOUNG Mae West?
<< <i> Taking AT coins a step further is the MOC case. Taking a coin OUT of its holder, recoloring it, and then placing it back in its SAME HOLDER is fraud in my eyes. What I dont understand is why would the "doctor" of these Morgans even do this if there was no incentive for him to do so??? He surely had an incentive, and we'll never know what it was/is. To me, this is no different than taking a coin that was slabbed, opening the holder (the rattler in this case) and then REPLACING it with a coin that was body-bagged. >>
Manofcoins never took a coin out of the holder to tone it, and i dont know where that little rumor came from, evidentally the old clacker holders arent 100% air tight because he toned the coins inside the holder, he did not crack the coin out and then tone the coin and then replace the coin and reseal the slab. Like i said I have no idea where the crackout and reseal rumor started but it is completely fabricated from false statements
<< <i>And anybody who says that they can confidently identify AT/NT is drinking too much of their own Kool-aid. >>
This I believe to be true. People say a coin is NT because other people have said that similar coins are NT. After a while a certain look becomes conventional wisdom for being NT. Maybe most of them are, who knows? But there is no way to confirm it other than a consensus, and that consensus is based on what other people have said beforehand.
Were you there watching the process, Bryan??? Give me a break.. I didnt say HE did it.
MANOCOINS response to the incident was:
<<I suspect what happened is I bought the same coin back after it was toned in some fashion either on purpose or by accident by this small time coin dealer.>>
I don't need a Harvard Law degree to think this answer is a joke. Like stating "I didn't inhale". Maybe it was gassed from NOT opening the holder, but it was still a coin that was tampered with when a SLAB is supposed to preserve/enclose the coin without interruption. I feel MANOCOINS KNOWS what was going on, and was plain BUSTED.
I am more than willing to pay for a lie detector sitting to see if he is telling the truth. No way would he take it.
I in the end do not care. I would never buy the things. If I was PCGS, I would care. Seems to me when someone is well liked, the punishment isn't so severe. The thread will eventually die like the others, and it will just be another story that gets buried under the rug.
In the mean time, keep buying gold because it will go to 2000, and keep buying tampered-with toned coins, because rainbows are SOOOO beautiful.
<< <i>And anybody who says that they can confidently identify AT/NT is drinking too much of their own Kool-aid. >>
That's your opinion only.
why even bother
Go away; Go back to looking at an "internet-only" catalog and try to cherry pic the next $10 profit.
<< <i>You edited (deleted) to say I am clueless with my numismatic posts. You've been saying everyone is clueless, and the MOC event is just an amateur wannabe coin doctor that got busted. AWWWW, dragon, sorry I have more of a life than trying to get recognition by down-playing everyone else's input, and trying to make note having all this knowledge at looking at thousands of Morgan dollars worth under a hundred dollars, and CLAIMING the expertise of knowing which are NT or AT.
Go away; Go back to looking at an "internet-only" catalog and try to cherry pic the next $10 profit.
Your posts speak for themself lloyd. You should have ended it by again bragging to the forum about how much money you earn...
the more unusual anything looks, the more skeptical one should be about it
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<<Your posts speak for themself lloyd.>>
"Posts" is plural Dragon. The word you want is THEMSELVES. Themself is not a word. Maybe you spend TOO much time looking at AT Morgans. Furthermore, it looks as if you also spend too much time reading my excellent posts.