MS69FS nickel on Teletrade

centmaster

There are three 97P nickels on Teletrade tonight: 67FS, 68FS and 69FS. All are obviously the SMS variety and are holdered non-SMS, yet are carrying huge bids/reserves. Who else out there thinks this is fraud? Take note, as more from the same batch are going off next week.

wondercoin

I forwarded your thread to Ian (President) at Teletrade tonight. Hopefully, he will read the email in time to address these coins.

Wondercoin

RBinTex

"Who else out there thinks this is fraud?"

wondercoin

Ian's reply to my email:

"They will be withdrawn."

Thanks again Ian.

Wondercoin

centmaster

Good to see some swift justice for a change. Thanks Wondercoin.

BSHINC

The Teletrade auction just ended for Wed. The 1997-P MS69FS was just sold for $2800 and the MS68FS was just sold for $825.
I thought these where going to be withdrawn? I'm puzzled.

BILL

centmaster

I guess no one at Teletrade noticed the last sentence of my post. The withdrawn coins were from Monday's auction. These nickels tonight were the other coins I was talking about. I wonder what will happen now.

BSHINC

Well, I guess the fraud SMS coins will be out there for good now. Not like PCGS can do anything about it.
Oh well....

BILL

wondercoin

There is plenty PCGS can do about it. For starters, they can remove the coins from the pop report entirely. They have done that many times before and will probably do it again, once they see the obvious nature of these mechanical errors.

Wondercoin

BSHINC

Hey Wondercoin,

Even if PCGS takes the coins off the POP report, What then happens to the coins that where sold through Teletrade?
Who would get nailed for a $2800.00 coin that PCGS would not recognize?

I guess I am new to this, but it seems that teletrade would be responsible.

Whats your thought??????

BILL

wondercoin

Bill: There was an extensive thread here on the Registry Forum within the past year on who is responsible for mechanical errors in circumstances just like this. See if you can track it down on a search. Some interesting opinions were provided on that thread.

Wondercoin

rb7557

Hi Bill. I just want to back wondercoin up here a bit. A few weeks back TT was auctioning off some SHQ's and another nickel. A few of us from here contacted TT to mention the coins they were selling as business strikes were in fact sf. Now here is the good part. Ian Russell, the president of TT, went the distance, and then some. He took the coins in question back to PCGS for review. As it turned out all but 2 of those coins were redesignated.

There is a little more to this story, and it just goes to show that Ian is one helluva good man to deal with. One of the above coins that were not redesignated, was purchased by a friend. He in turn was not convinced that it was designated correctly so he sent it off to a neutral party to have an outside opinion. As this turned out, they felt the coin was a sf strike. So guess what? It was returned to TT for a full refund. Yep full refund, and this was after TTs timeframe to make a return. Now if you ask me, Ian is a man with a lot of integrity.

rb

Edited for spelling. If it isn't that, it's the typing.

rb7557

Oh man, I almost forgot! Welcome to the boards Bill.



rb

MichaelB

TextI appreciate this thread guys to know that I was not the only one wondering about the Teletrade ms69fs and 68fs that was up for sale.
First off, the 69fs sold for 2,300 not 2,800. Pop report listed 2 69's, and 2 68's.
When you look at the pictures provided from teletrade, they appear to be business strike and not satin, but then it's a picture. In considering that pcgs is very stingy of grades, then one must wonder that any business strike would ever grade a 69. 69 and 70 are normally grades for proofs.
Under the possiblility that these Jeffersons are for real, then I got a bargain.
As in I bought both the 68 and the 69. They will not be lost. I will find out if mechanical error or not.
This is not the 1st time satin finish coin gets misgraded. 2004 Bison ms69 came, sold on TT, then retracked back off pop report for not being business strike. I loved it because I have the only NGC 2004 bison ms69, and it's not satin.
Thanks again for being alert. I'll let you know what happens.
Mike in Houston
MMM Coins on eBay
kid's college fund on most Jeff registries

centmaster

Mike, I hope it works out well for you, but you won't get too many people to agree that these are not anything but SMS coins. Your only hope is that PCGS throws you a bone and reimburses you for your purchase price. They could also simply call it "mechanical error", reholder it and be done with it.

BSHINC

Thanks For the insight Wondercoin. I will look into it and see what I come up with.

Hey Rb, I also back Wondercoin up on this as well. I just wanted to know how these things get fixed or taken care of.

Since I am new to the boards, I will go back and look into some of the older post.

Thanks again.

BILL

wondercoin

Bill: Of course, the best scenerio would have been Ian pulling these coins from auction as he did a few weeks ago on other coins. I understand he is busy and can not catch everything. About once a year, I email PCGS with concerns involving the 1994/1997 SMS nickels requesting that they remove from the pop report the obvious mechanical error MS68/MS69 pieces. I generally do not mention MS67FS coins usually as truly original non-SMS pieces exist in this grade. Next time I prepare such an email, however, I will also ask that the MS67FS coins be removed that match up to the ones Teletrade sold. That is, of course, unless the buyer(s) of these coins do the right thing and send them back to PCGS anyway.

Wondercoin

MichaelB

Turns out everyone had a good portion of the story correct. These high grade 1997P Jeffersons were listed on teletrade. They were questioned, and pulled down from auction. A source tells me there was a meeting with Ian, 1 rep from PCGS, and 2 graders from PCGS. They went thru several coins and said yea or nea. These coins that sold this time were authentic. As I mention this, I confirmed this before I paid for the ms69 and ms68.
I was a semi non believer too, and was half expecting that the sale would not go thru due to the whole issue this thread is discussing. As all collectors are, I'm fortunite to have the top coin now in this year, and I will end up selling the ms68 to lower the cost of the 69 that I will keep.
Mike in Houston

wondercoin

Mike: Without even seeing your coins, I am 99.99% confident your coins are SMS, notwithstanding your story (and I do not doubt you have the best of intentions here). Likewise, I suspect most, if not all of the top registry players would also feel the same way I do. Are you confident your coins are true business strikes? Is so, please mail me off the coins for inspection. If I agree with you after examining the coins, I'll state it here on the thread for you (and inform the the #1, #2 and #3 set holders as well). I will also likely bid aggressively for your MS68FS coin. If, on the other hand, they are SMS mechanical errors, I'll personally drop them off at PCGS for you so they can look at them once again (or return them to you if you do not want PCGS seeing them). Happy to help out here.

Wondercoin.

Datentype

The 1997-p does not come in ms68 or ms69 after several thousand sets i can see how they run and the probabilty of a super, super fine coin and if PCGS is calling one of them an ms68 or ms69 i will bet huge amounts of money that you are wasting your money on SMS coins. PCGS is genarally not skilled enough and normally defaults to the safer SMS designation even with obvious ms coins. This is my opinion and I hope nobody is wasting there money on 1994 and 1997 Jefferson years as PCGS screws these dates up along with 1964-1967 and the satin finish coins of 2005 repeatedly. They do not have proper controls in place and neither does NGC. They need to put a control that flags all these problem dates in the system as they go to scan it or enter it. Then the PCGS police need to come in and make that final check.

Datentype

By the way, a real ms68 Jefferson for 1997-p is at least a $5,000 coin and a ms69, sky is the limit. I would sell them and make PCGS buy them back since they are foolish enough to put them in the holders in the first place. If they indeed authenticated them a second time, they most likely had somebody that does not know the date look at it. In the old days, I could see how they would label the coins before the grades were finalized and have them change them with a simple email to avoid waiting for them to change them aftere they were sent to my business - this propmpted them to change that feature once I emailed it to Ron Guth. Another possibilty is that they gave the coins sky high grades based upon them thinking all sms coins are ms68 or ms69 and then when it was pointed out they were not SMS they were stuck with the grades on the holders. i have had this scenario happen before too. Therefore in my opinion you have either option but the coin does not come ms68 or ms69 period!

wondercoin

Mark: Sounds like we are in full agreement on our belief these coins are SMS. Only disagreement we have is I believe it is a very bad idea to sell them at this point and involve even more 3rd parties. Wondercoin

leothelyon

They were questioned, and pulled down from auction. A source tells me there was a meeting with Ian, 1 rep from PCGS, and 2 graders from PCGS. They went thru several coins and said yea or nea. These coins that sold this time were authentic.

I didn't realize Teletrade AND PCGS were only 10 minutes apart. I have never doubted MS69FS examples of any of the later dates were impossible. Heck, I have a 3-4 tempties in my collection. A couple of my 1996-D's could grade MS69FS, MS68FS respectively. My 1999-D could easily go MS68FS. From what transpired at Heritage these past couple of days, I should have about 2 dozens of MS68FS and MS69FS examples!
Not that I wouldn't want to personally see those recent two from Teletrade, I certainly would as I'm not a dreamer with anyone's registry set.

Leo

wondercoin

I ran into Ian today at the show. He starred at me dumbfounded when I asked him about this meeting with PCGS graders.

Wondercoin

NIckelCollector

Mike

I would agree with Mitch and go1 step further - these coins in my opinion were 99.999% likely SMS and probably worth $300 in total.

wondercoin

Mike I would agree with Mitch and go1 step further - these coins in my opinion were 99.999% likely SMS and probably worth $300 in total.

Frank: I think the word is finally getting out. From what I see, these "amazing" high grade Jeffs are trading at lower and lower levels for the most part when offered. It really takes the wind out from under your sails when you have a coin like an obvious mechanical error 2005 SF piece hiding out in business strike plastic that you paid $1000 or $2000 for only to find the coin stricken from the pop report entirely and unavailable for your registry set.

Wondercoin

MichaelB

Everyone will be glad to know that these 2 coins ms68 and ms69 are on their way back to PCGS to confirm via Teletrade. I'll post what happens when they return. Should be later this week. Thanks Mitch for your persistance. Thanks Frank for having an inspiring set of proof DCam Jeffersons, as I have called up the "Corso" collection many times.
When I had talked with Teletrade friends before over these 2 coins, I believe they were confusing other coins that were pulled and or solded as non SMS.
Mike in Houston

Kid's College Fund Collections