Jays Skipper tangles with Lilly
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Blue Jays manager John Gibbons wound up with a bloody nose after tangling with Toronto pitcher Ted Lilly near the dugout during Monday night's game against Oakland.
AP Photo/Aaron Harris
Lilly (left) reacts negatively as manager Gibbons tries to take him out of the game in the third inning on Monday night.
It was not known whether any punches were thrown.
Lilly was pulled in the third inning, when the Athletics scored seven runs to close to 8-7. Gibbons chewed out the pitcher, who refused to give him the ball.
When Lilly left the mound for the locker room, Gibbons followed him. A team trainer and a number of players then ran down the stairs of the tunnel leading to the clubhouse.
Cameramen near the dugout saw Gibbons push Lilly first. A television camera later showed Gibbons with a bloody nose.
Gibbons challenged Shea Hillenbrand to a fight in July after the infielder wrote on the clubhouse bulletin board that the "ship was sinking." The Blue Jays designated Hillenbrand for assignment during the game and later traded him to San Francisco.
Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press
There is no way the Blue Jays can bring Gibbons back. He is a joke. Not that Lilly was right or anything but Gibbons gets into these things a wee bit too often with his players.
AP Photo/Aaron Harris
Lilly (left) reacts negatively as manager Gibbons tries to take him out of the game in the third inning on Monday night.
It was not known whether any punches were thrown.
Lilly was pulled in the third inning, when the Athletics scored seven runs to close to 8-7. Gibbons chewed out the pitcher, who refused to give him the ball.
When Lilly left the mound for the locker room, Gibbons followed him. A team trainer and a number of players then ran down the stairs of the tunnel leading to the clubhouse.
Cameramen near the dugout saw Gibbons push Lilly first. A television camera later showed Gibbons with a bloody nose.
Gibbons challenged Shea Hillenbrand to a fight in July after the infielder wrote on the clubhouse bulletin board that the "ship was sinking." The Blue Jays designated Hillenbrand for assignment during the game and later traded him to San Francisco.
Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press
There is no way the Blue Jays can bring Gibbons back. He is a joke. Not that Lilly was right or anything but Gibbons gets into these things a wee bit too often with his players.
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It is a big story on TSN and Sportsnet in Toronto. Apparently, Gibbons followed Lilly into the clubhouse and virtually the entire bench emptied to go down to see what was happening. The reaction of Roy Halladay was priceless. He just stood in his exact same spot on the steps right by the entrance to the clubhouse.
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
Won back to back World Series titles though in '77 & '78. The media makes more out of these altercations than is justified. Winning is a great deodorant, but the Jays players aren't winners and that's been the case long before Gibbons was in charge.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Very true, and I recall the team even seemed to thrive on that tension. Remember the true Boston Massacre when the Yanks came from 14 games back in early August to win the East? Reggie & Martin & Nettles & Munson all hated each other back & forth but the team was built to win, and win they did.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
And to compare him to Billy Martin is a bit of a stretch. Martin had a resume to back up some of his antics.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Doesnt surprise me at all. Gibbons seemed to be a real confrontational SOB. Definately not the type you want leading a team.
And to compare him to Billy Martin is a bit of a stretch. Martin had a resume to back up some of his antics. >>
Agreed
Lilly certainly didnt act the way he should have, but in the end it is the managers job to deal with things professionally. Reading what you said about Halladay definately shows what the club must be thinking as a whole at this point.
Ricciardi has been put in a tough situation considering his past with Gibbons, but he has a higher responsibilty to the team and the fans. If he doesnt take action and remove Gibbons it can only lead to the problems you discussed during the offseason. It would be a shame to see a club which has improved & is on the verge of something lose what they have built.
-- Yogi Berra
~"Very true, and I recall the team even seemed to thrive on that tension."
From what I have read I agree with that as well.
From a Mets perspective I believe when Reggie and Billy had their altercation in the dugout at Fenway in 1977 was the same day as Tom Seaver made his pitching debut for the Reds on National T.V. Talk about making the Mets irrelevant.
writer11 - I keep hearing Wells wants to go to Texas or Houston. Did you hear Gibbons on the FAN this morning? Apparently, he said that he talked with Lilly afterwards and all was well?
<< <i>grote15 - Billy was not the manager when the Yankees won the World Series in 1978 - something about the quote, "One is convicted and the other is a born liar"
~"Very true, and I recall the team even seemed to thrive on that tension."
From what I have read I agree with that as well.
From a Mets perspective I believe when Reggie and Billy had their altercation in the dugout at Fenway in 1977 was the same day as Tom Seaver made his pitching debut for the Reds on National T.V. Talk about making the Mets irrelevant.
writer11 - I keep hearing Wells wants to go to Texas or Houston. Did you hear Gibbons on the FAN this morning? Apparently, he said that he talked with Lilly afterwards and all was well? >>
I will bet that Wells ends up in Texas. He lives near Dallas in the off-season. His best friend in baseball is Michael Young. The problem is that the Jays need an arm in return. Hmm ... Millwood + Matthews Jr. + prospect maybe? I could be dreaming here.
I didn't hear Gibbons, but I've read stories about what he said. I could've predicted he would say that. I've noticed that Ricciardi has been conspicuously absent in his support of Gibbons in this ordeal. As I say, to me the scariest part was the look on Halladay's face when Gibbons went to talk to him in the dugout. Halladay looked at Gibbons like he was either A) completely disgusted with him or
Yes, aro, you are correct about that I think Martin resigned as manager (or was fired) right after making that statement about George and Jackson, though I recall that he returned (albeit briefly) to manage the Yanks in '79. Those years were truly like "The Bronx Zoo".
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Simple for me actually, you can't have the inmates running the asylum. Why in the hell Lilly thought he should stay in that game was laughable, what manager wouldn't have yanked him? As well, although I don't know this as fact, I'm sure Gibbons said something to Lilly after the second inning or sometime thereabouts and Lilly either ignored him or just did his thing on the mound. Gibbons said something like "I told you not to do that" when he came to pull him and Lilly exploded--unacceptable. You are 100% right about Lilly Writer, he is an inigma and I'm actually happy this happened simply because for the Jays to keep him he will command somewhere in the 5-6 million range and now the Jays know to say bye-bye. That being said, I believe the Jays could do better at manager but it has alot more to do with how he's handled pitching changes than anything else. What happened last night was brutal, but I don't feel Gibbons was at fault--shouldn't have pushed him, but Lilly has to go when the manager comes out to get you, simple as that.
Lastly, that trade you're dreaming up for Wells (and I know you're just trying to figure something out here, I'm certainly not knocking you Writer), would be horrible for the Jays. Millwood really is no better than Gille Meche who the Jays will be seriously courting in the off-season (from what I've heard), and he will cost LESS THAN HALF of what Millwood makes. Also please note that Matthews Jr has had ONE good season in the majors (this year). I don't believe a trade could be made with Texas but this is really my biggest beef--why the hell would JP bend over backwards to send somebody that doesn't want to be here to a team HE wants to play for? I am so sick of these multi-million dollar atheletes asking to go to a team THEY want to go to. JP has to make the best trade for the team, regardless of where that is. I certainly hope to hell they get something for Wells in the off-season, but let's face it, Wells is no franchise player--remember, I sat through multiple years of the Expos losing IRREPLACEABLE players like Guerrero and Pedro, that hurt. Nearly every team in the league has a guy who hits .300 30 100--those numbers aren't as special as they used to be. I will certainly miss Wells, but Rios should be able to step up and be that number 3 guy--I believe he's ready. I'm not knocking Wells, but he can and will be replaced. Get the most you can for him and the franchise will continue to move forward.
Jay
Before he was ejected for the fifth time this season, manager Ozzie Guillen said he admired Toronto manager John Gibbons' restraint during Monday night's confrontation with Ted Lilly. "I'm not sure I would have had that kind of patience -- I might have gotten after him on the mound," Guillen said. .../i]
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>From ESPN:
Before he was ejected for the fifth time this season, manager Ozzie Guillen said he admired Toronto manager John Gibbons' restraint during Monday night's confrontation with Ted Lilly. "I'm not sure I would have had that kind of patience -- I might have gotten after him on the mound," Guillen said. .../i]
Looks like Gibbons just doesnt have the respect of his players. That goes beyond the inmates running the asylum. There is obviously a LOT going on in that clubhouse. I guess Hillenbrand wasnt so off, was he? Yes, he was wrong for what he did but was probably accurate in his chalkboard writings.
I think it's undersized and definately cutting off circulation....
gives a whole new meaning to "don't get your panties in a bunch"....
<< <i>Living in Toronto and becoming a Jays fan because of it I feel I have to chime in as well.
Simple for me actually, you can't have the inmates running the asylum. Why in the hell Lilly thought he should stay in that game was laughable, what manager wouldn't have yanked him? As well, although I don't know this as fact, I'm sure Gibbons said something to Lilly after the second inning or sometime thereabouts and Lilly either ignored him or just did his thing on the mound. Gibbons said something like "I told you not to do that" when he came to pull him and Lilly exploded--unacceptable. You are 100% right about Lilly Writer, he is an inigma and I'm actually happy this happened simply because for the Jays to keep him he will command somewhere in the 5-6 million range and now the Jays know to say bye-bye. That being said, I believe the Jays could do better at manager but it has alot more to do with how he's handled pitching changes than anything else. What happened last night was brutal, but I don't feel Gibbons was at fault--shouldn't have pushed him, but Lilly has to go when the manager comes out to get you, simple as that.
Lastly, that trade you're dreaming up for Wells (and I know you're just trying to figure something out here, I'm certainly not knocking you Writer), would be horrible for the Jays. Millwood really is no better than Gille Meche who the Jays will be seriously courting in the off-season (from what I've heard), and he will cost LESS THAN HALF of what Millwood makes. Also please note that Matthews Jr has had ONE good season in the majors (this year). I don't believe a trade could be made with Texas but this is really my biggest beef--why the hell would JP bend over backwards to send somebody that doesn't want to be here to a team HE wants to play for? I am so sick of these multi-million dollar atheletes asking to go to a team THEY want to go to. JP has to make the best trade for the team, regardless of where that is. I certainly hope to hell they get something for Wells in the off-season, but let's face it, Wells is no franchise player--remember, I sat through multiple years of the Expos losing IRREPLACEABLE players like Guerrero and Pedro, that hurt. Nearly every team in the league has a guy who hits .300 30 100--those numbers aren't as special as they used to be. I will certainly miss Wells, but Rios should be able to step up and be that number 3 guy--I believe he's ready. I'm not knocking Wells, but he can and will be replaced. Get the most you can for him and the franchise will continue to move forward.
Jay >>
Hi Jay,
Thanks for your thoughts. My trade scenario was nothing more than a hasty series of thoughts. I was trying to find some semblance of a decent pitcher on the Rangers staff that would be useful to the Jays and Millwood was the only one that jumped out at me. But you're right, if they can get Meche instead, all the power to them. You're right about Matthews too. If you could acquire the Matthews from this year and not any of his previous years, you would be doing OK in that deal. The thing about Wells - to me anyway - is to try to capitalize on his great year this year in the off-season. Is Wells a .320 hitter with 30+ HR like he is this year? Or is he a .260 hitter with 28 HRs like he was last year? It's better to trade him this off-season and cash in on a good season. J.P. should be able to get something for him.
Gibbons was wrong in going down the tunnel after Lilly and getting into an altercation - cooler heads should have prevailed, and he had a game to manage. Why he felt the need to go after a guy already obviously agitated is beyond me.
<< <i>Lilly was in the wrong for not giving up the ball right away and in running his yap to his manager on the mound.
Gibbons was wrong in going down the tunnel after Lilly and getting into an altercation - cooler heads should have prevailed, and he had a game to manage. Why he felt the need to go after a guy already obviously agitated is beyond me. >>
I agree with you fully. And the speculation is that their actions are going to cost them their jobs. I heard a Toronto Star columnist say that he believes Gibbons is gone at the end of the year and that Lilly will soon be placed on waivers.
I agree with you that this is the year to trade Wells, I think he'll end up being a very good player who hits somewhere in that range for the rest of his career and again, can be replaced. Once again I will be sad to see him go, as I'd love to see the team stay together for awhile, but that's baseball for a team with a 80 millionish payroll.
I think they'll be O.K, they really need a team that stays healthy for a year and a #4 starter to give them 180+ innings. If they can get this , this team will be better next year at the very least.
Jay