Getting sick of these writers talking $hit about the hobby

gosteelers · August 18, 2006 9:13AM

Does it seem like there were about 10-15 articles recently from guys who have no clue about the hobby? Of all people, I was reading Bill Simmons (ESPN) yesterday and he throws in a comment like, "The Royals are so f-ed up right now that it's translating to baseball cards. Topps even mistakenly (yeah, right!) inserted a few Alex Gordon cards into it's packs causing a furor to snatch them all up amongst the 10 people that still collect baseball cards"

These guys are pissed because their Dave Magadan and Kevin Maas cards tanked in the 90s. I guess they thought it ended all right there...

Estil · August 18, 2006 9:40AM

Well, to be fair, I've noticed that 1980s era cards on Ebay overall don't seem to be worth nearly as much as they were a few years ago.

bri2327 · August 18, 2006 10:07AM

I absolutely agree. There was a related post a few days ago on this very same subject. I had mentioned one little hack writer who I had to send an editorial to. He was a typical bitter little boy who had gone home to visit his mother and go through what he thought was a gold mine. He went on and on about his 1987-91 cards that he starved his way through school to obtain under the promise they would be worth a fortune. To make a long story short, he berated the hobby & industry in general. I asked him if it occured to him in 1990 that if every store in America had thousands of cases of product that maybe they wouldnt be all that rare and valuable one day ? I also asked him if he had any enjoyment in collecting in his youth or was it all for monatary reasons, and if there was enjoyment involved he had nothing to complain about.

These guys are starving for a subject to write about, and it just so happens that most grew up in the day when EVERYONE collected to some extent, so now they have an easy way to meet their deadline...writing about something they think they have a clue about. Now I just laugh them all off for what they are. The more of these guys who are reaching the age of having disposable income and arent spending it on cards, the more we can all pick up some better deals and enjoy an uncluttered hobby again.

5STAT · August 18, 2006 10:07AM

I think the point is that writers are bashing the hobby without doing any TRUE investigating into it!!

Come one...it's a billion dollar industry!! Cards are selling for thousands of dollars thanks to grading...Ebay has 10's of thousands of sold sports cards a week....PSA has graded 9+ million cards to date...

SURE...the collectors that "invested" in late 80's and early 90's stuff...have taken a bath....and when these reporters who are trying to make a name now..talk about how what they had is now worthless.....

well..they are just reporting on a small portion of the hobby.

Bill Simmons is an arrogant bafoon....and I'll tell you what....I can find 10 (probably more like 50) collectors that make 10-20 times what he makes a year..just on cards!! There are more dealers achieving better wealth right now..than ever before....even back in the hayday 90's!!

Look at the record setting prices on Ebay and the major auction houses these days....if the hobby is dead....who's paying $30K for a partial 1986 Fleer Basketball PSA 10 set??

Bill Simmons would be better off to just shut his mouth and he may actually learn something..some day..

I won't hold my breath though....

CDsNuts · August 18, 2006 10:09AM

I see your points, but it's not like they're wrong. I doubt 10% of the people who collected during the 80s and 90s are still around today. The national had about 1/4 of the crowd it had 15 years ago, and the ones that were there were primarily going for auto's, not cards. As much as I like cards from my childhood, I really haven't been excited about the release of a product since 1992. It's not the money that's in the industry, it's the number of people still in the hobby that is what's alarming. Take any decade since the modern era of cards and you'll find fewer collectors in this decade than in any other. I think Simmons' "10 people still collecting cards" statement is fairly accurate sarcasm.

Incidentally, he devoted a whole column a while back to how much he loved collecting cards as a kid and what the hobby meant to him, and how he still walks around with a Fred Lynn RC in his wallet. He's not bashing the hobby by any means. I think he's making a statement about how the card companies have taken something fairly innocent and turned it into a money sucking machine, which in turn lost 90% of the collectors.

Lee

slatsme · August 18, 2006 10:14AM

Who cares what one says or thinks about this hobby. I have a buddie that collects Barbie's of NCAA cheerleaders (a bit wierd when you think about it) anyways he does it b/c it provides a challenge, something to do, work for and towards, a sense of self-satisfaction and just something he enjoys.

My father collects PEZ and hears it from me and anyone within earshot, but he enjoys it and there are probably a myriad of reasons why.

When I read the Simmons article and his comment, I laughed, it's just one man's opinion. No need to get worked up over it.

bri2327 · August 18, 2006 10:29AM

<< Who cares what one says or thinks about this hobby. I have a buddie that collects Barbie's of NCAA cheerleaders (a bit wierd when you think about it) anyways he does it b/c it provides a challenge, something to do, work for and towards, a sense of self-satisfaction and just something he enjoys.

My father collects PEZ and hears it from me and anyone within earshot, but he enjoys it and there are probably a myriad of reasons why.

When I read the Simmons article and his comment, I laughed, it's just one man's opinion. No need to get worked up over it. >>

I have a cousin who literally has a catwalk throughout her entire home acting as shelving for her PEZ collection. Conservatively she must have 10,000 dispensers.

And your friend who collects the barbies........made me think of the Simpsons Smithers and his maibu stacy collection !

5STAT · August 18, 2006 1:28PM

To put things in perspective...back in the 80's and 90's...ANYONE who owned a showbox full of cards wanted to be a dealer!
I was doing shows and flea markets back in 1985..I opened my 1st store in 1989. When I opened it, it was the 4th store in the Worcester, MA area. By 1991, I owned 2 stores...and still did shows. These were the hay days....anything and everything was hot...no matter what you touched, you made $$$. Customers used to be standing at the door on supply day...

That is..until 1994. That year marked the increase in pack/box prices. People were already starting to get sick of parallels and inserts...and the dreaded baseball strike came. People lost interest FAST!!
I was one of the smart ones...I had sold off the stock from one store in late '93. I closed the ancor store in Nov. of 1994. When I closed it...there were 32...YES...32 stores in our area. Again..anyone who had cards thought they were a dealer. Over the next 5 years...they dwindled down to less than 10...and in the last 3 years...back down to 3 stores.

All of the customers/dealers that had spent loads of cash...surely lost out....so hence the articles..

What they don't take into concideration is the internet.....grading...and online sales in general.
Yes, the shows look weak....why shouldn't they..people don;t even have to leave their houses to shop for some of the best deals worldwide. Todays shows are caitered to the diehard collectors and dealers. Were there 500 people at any show back in 1992...yah....they had NO WHERE else to get their product!!
Today's shows..there can be a fraction of that amount...yet in today's market..I make propotionately MORE money than I ever made back then!

Life is hard..people need the weekends to catch up on yard work..play with their kids..spend quality time with their loved ones. They don't need to be going to some over priced card show and paying $10 to get in...just to see the same old same old..every show.
They can get online for an hour here..and hour there and get what their heart desires.....without ever leaving home..or having to gas the car!

The shows are slower...the local card shops have almost become extinct...
does this mean that the hobby is dead?? Heck no....there are more people than ever getting back into it. I know alot of my old customers that are now in their mid - late 20's and 30's...that are just getting back into it!! My store today is filled with horror stories from the hay days...but honestly...the ONLY people that appear to be crying about it are those who were in it for the $$$.

The people who thought that they would make gobs and gobs of money no matter what happened. GREED took over....
Yes, we all have our stories....I have a 5000 ct box Roberto Kelly and Kevin Maas rookies....a couple dozen Joe Charboneau rookies...and more Cecil Fielders and Kevin Mitchells than I care to talk about.

Do I base my gloom stories on why the hobby is dead today because these cards aren't worth $10 combined. No..I'll leave that to the reporters..

They call themselves reporters...but aren't they just complaining about their beliefs?

How about they report that Ebay has made huge gains in the hobby since it's inception. There wouldn't be 6 grading companies..if the demand didn't allow for it. How about they investigate what positive affects companies like PSA has made in the hobby. If the hobby is so dead...why the need for Naxcom...for Beckett...for any other auction house?
Why is it that every major auction house has had million dollar auctions lately??

I'd like to see an "informed" article come out!!

No people at shows...no people in stores...maybe that's because they are online buying instead!! With dealers having bulk email lists..they can send their new goods to thousands of people with the click of a button. If the lists don't come..search the web..their are thousands of online stores to buy from...and the internet has infinite possibilities for any buyers or sellers.

Just because your Joey Belle cards didn't make you retire early.......don't tell me the hobby is dead!!

It's alive and well....and all in what you are willing to make out of it....

frankhardy · August 18, 2006 10:49PM

5STAT,

Very well said.

I like what you said about the only people ticked off are the ones in it for the money. Sure, I like to make a little money, but I would still collect cards if they wasn't worth anything! Why? Because I enjoy it.

I enjoy opening a pack of cards. Even it is 1987 Topps, just to see if I get a Cardinal or two.

I enjoy building my Cardinals team sets and putting them into albums for all to see.

I enjoy building a Topps set for every year.

I enjoy sending off a submission to PSA, and waiting for the grades like I waited for Christmas when I was a kid.

I enjoy buying cards on Ebay and then going to the mailbox, and opening the package like it is a birthday present.

I enjoy giving a pack of cards to my five year old boy to see the joy on his face when he pulls a Cardinals player.

I enjoy finding that super rare card that I've been looking for for 2 years.

I enjoy reading and posting on these message boards.

I enjoy finding local collections to buy that people just want to get rid of.

I enjoy going through commons and finding a rookie card of a player that has made it big having no idea that I had the card (just found a 2001 Upper Deck Ryan Howard the other day).

Folks, I am in this hobby because I enjoy it.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot - I enjoy spending $1700 on a 1953 Topps set, and turning right around and selling it for $3800. That's always fun too!

CDsNuts · August 18, 2006 11:53PM

Stat and frankhardy,
Yes, you enjoy it, I enjoy it, and everybody on this board enjoys the hobby. But the card companies and grading companies have priced kids almost completely out of the hobby. It's sad that a hobby that was once tailored completely to kids has completely alienated them and pushed them away. What kid can afford $100 for a box of cards? What kid can afford $6 to have all of their good cards graded, and even if they could, what kid would want to wait a month to get their cards back from the grading company? It's always been an industry where people have an opportunity to make money, but it also left room for kids to join in the fun. That's no longer the case. The writers aren't pissed that the cards from their childhood are worthless- their pissed because a new pack of cards costs $20 and a hobby that was once centered around kids has lost its way. And I'm kind of pissed too.

Lee

frankhardy · August 19, 2006 12:06AM

You made some good points. I agree. I don't see many kids collecting. All I see is kids buying that stupid Pokemon crap. I think it would help if collectors that have young children would get them involved in it.

bri2327 · August 19, 2006 12:43AM

I think you could make cards 50 cents a pack again and kids still wouldnt have 1/10th the interest that they used to. It is a sign of the times. Television, the internet and video games run kids lives.

5STAT · August 19, 2006 2:08AM

I hate to break it to you guys...but the kids have alot more $$$ than the adults...lol

When I set up at the monthly shows...it's 50-50 with kids and adults...and yes the new internet savy KIDS are making some coin!!

When I was a kid..I worked for $2.50 and hour mucking stalls and milking cows...when I turned 16 I was lucky enough to get a job at the local dairy queen and thought I was rich at $4.10 an hour..

Today, my 16 year old daughter makes $10.50/hr...they buy ipods..cd's..go out to the movies...

There is one kid that comes to the local show that is no more than 18 years old. He has a landscaping business on the side..and spends most of his time/money on cards. He comes to every show with hoards and hoards of new PSA/GAI and Beckett graded cards....big names too...and autos like there is no tomorrow.

When we were kids..IF we got an allowance...what was it...$5?? Maybe $10 if your parents were well off.
Heck, I flipped my daughter $40 the other night to go out to dinner and a movie with her boyfriend.....no wonder she has no problem spending her $180 on an ipod!!

Adults value the almighty buck....kids don't care. The kids I deal with could care less about Topps...or cheap Upper Deck packs..they scoff at cheap GU'd and autos...they want the creme de la creme.
In most cases..it's mainly modern material....but the adults will haggle...."you want $450 for that Pujols auto.....would you take $300?"
The kids say " hey...I only have $300...can I give you that and another $300 in trade?:" OR they just pay for it outright!!

That's the older kids...the younger kids are still into too...most parents these days have more discetionary income...kids come in my store and plop down $20-$30 bucks all the time....
"what's new for Manny cards...any new Ortiz cards...did you get anymore Varitek rc's?"....this from 10-12 year old kids..

There are still alot of kids into this hobby...but going back to $2 packs loaded with shiney inserts and huge sets isn't the answer either...

Lee...remember...kids don't have rent/mortgages to pay...they don't pay for phones, heat, electric or for food. We put the clothes on their backs....
so when it comes to them...YES alot do spend $100 on high end boxes..alot do spend hundreds grading cards...and yes..alot makes hundreds..even thousands online also...they are just as savy as most adults...

It's not that the kids mind paying $8 for an SP Authentic pack....it's when the adults have to pay..that you hear about how it's not for kids anymore....

Estil · October 15, 2006 4:33AM

Wow, that's a relief in a way. You see, I'm now 26 years old and I first got back into the hobby when I was about 13-15 years old, around 1993-95 or so. At least back then there were affordable packs. My favorite packs to get at that time were the jumbo 1993 Topps packs cuz you got five gold cards in each pack, and I really loved the 1994 Fleer packs cuz you were guaranteed an insert card in every pack and to this day the 1994 Fleer inserts (and the 1994 Ultra to a lesser extent) are my favorites. I just plain didn't see how kids today could get into the hobby with packs costing $2 or more and the fact that the cards' values, for the most part, don't hold up over time. Like I've said before, it doesn't seem to make sense to buy packs/boxes the year they come out when you can just wait a year or so and get the whole set for the cost of about 4-5 packs.

Another good way for to get kids into the hobby; why not the older cheap stuff from the late 1980s/early 1990s? I mean, you can't assume ALL kids today are financially well off; some come from families with limited incomes and can't afford to buy those expensive packs today. So there is still a market (very much untapped) for kids to get cheap stuff. I mean, back when you all were kids, could you buy a whole set of cards for $5?

RipublicaninMass · October 15, 2006 4:41AM

I have a buddie that collects Barbie's of NCAA cheerleaders (a bit wierd when you think about it) anyways he does it b/c it provides a challenge, something to do, work for and towards, a sense of self-satisfaction and just something he enjoys.

What does his wife...umm nevermind...lol

As long as they STOP writing about the DOOM AND GLOOM of the real estate market I'm cool!

onlyanumber · October 15, 2006 4:43AM

<< I enjoy going through commons and finding a rookie card of a player that has made it big having no idea that I had the card (just found a 2001 Upper Deck Ryan Howard the other day).

>>

I have shoeboxes full of cards in top loaders and penny sleeves--from various 'rookie lots' on ebay that I have purchased over the past few years. Every now and then I pull out a shoe box and sift through them. Nothing beats pulling out an unknown rookie four years ago that happens to be a Josh Johnson rookie refractor, or a David Wright, or a Ryan Howard.

Better than ripping packs!!!

Stone193 · October 15, 2006 5:00AM

That's interesting but the people who participate in the hobby could care less what these guys say.

Here's some good news:

Topps recently reported that nets sales for its second quarter of fiscal 2007 (ended Aug 26) increased 9.9% over the previous year to 82.3 million - mostly from increases in sportscard products.

Domestic sportscard sales were up 75% compared to the same quarter last year.

The reduction in products is working - people can complain, people can criticize, people can say the sky is falling, but IMO, the card companies are trying to do something about it.

Even local card shops are reporting some of the best business they have had in years. This can be attributed to the leagues and the card companies doing something about trying to engage children and bring them into the hobby. Advertising works. Plus, they're doing things that involve on-line participation by kids - that works too. They're giving away things to children - this works.

mike

TZAHL · October 15, 2006 5:15AM

Link to Simmons' article? I usually find him very funny.......and usually true. I'm sure he made some sarcastic statements that he may or may not really believe.

softparade · October 15, 2006 5:37AM

<< 

Life is hard..people need the weekends to catch up on yard work..play with their kids..spend quality time with their loved ones. They don't need to be going to some over priced card show and paying $10 to get in...just to see the same old same old..every show.
They can get online for an hour here..and hour there and get what their heart desires.....without ever leaving home..or having to gas the car!

>>

Life is BUSY as opposed to HARD but this was a very accurate statement 5STAT

My situation relates to this EXACTLY.

rbdjr1 · October 15, 2006 5:49AM

Cards (circa: after tobbaco cards) were made and marketed for kids. PSA, auctions, ebay, CU, Set Registry and the like, are made for us "big kids"!

I guess we just never grew up?

rd

CLICK HERE AND LISTEN!! The Rolling Stones - Sympathy for the Devil

Ahmanfan · October 15, 2006 6:00AM

this rookie class (football of course) has helped I'm sure as well.

Boopotts · October 15, 2006 6:02AM

<< I see your points, but it's not like they're wrong. I doubt 10% of the people who collected during the 80s and 90s are still around today. The national had about 1/4 of the crowd it had 15 years ago, and the ones that were there were primarily going for auto's, not cards. As much as I like cards from my childhood, I really haven't been excited about the release of a product since 1992. It's not the money that's in the industry, it's the number of people still in the hobby that is what's alarming. Take any decade since the modern era of cards and you'll find fewer collectors in this decade than in any other. I think Simmons' "10 people still collecting cards" statement is fairly accurate sarcasm.

Incidentally, he devoted a whole column a while back to how much he loved collecting cards as a kid and what the hobby meant to him, and how he still walks around with a Fred Lynn RC in his wallet. He's not bashing the hobby by any means. I think he's making a statement about how the card companies have taken something fairly innocent and turned it into a money sucking machine, which in turn lost 90% of the collectors.

Lee >>

I think this is a misconception. The card companies, IMO, have not turned the hobby into a money sucking machine-- the card collectors have. All the card companies have done (well, not 'all' they've done, but you get my point) is respond to a demand. UD releases rip-off product and rip-off product because there are enough people out there who will buy it. Look at Sweet Spot. $100 for a handful of base cards, Benji Molina sticker auto and a Tim Hudson GU card? Huh? But the stuff sells every year.

I'd guess that hobby participation right now is just about at the same point it was at in 1985. You had those freaky 7 years in the late '80's early '90's, but if you take out that aberration it's never really been a mainstream hobby. Also, I think it's time that we, as hobby enthusiasts, begin to assume some of the responsibility for the decline in sports card collecting. Card manufacturers and companies like PSA have responded to our demands--- if those demands have had the effect of alienating existing and potential collectors then we have ourselves to blame.

CDsNuts · October 15, 2006 6:49AM

Obviously the card companies wouldn't intentionally kill the industry, and they would do their best to react to demand. They just have a way of beating a dead horse until whatever cards were popular at one point in time is so saturated that the novelty of collecting said cards has worn off and collectors could care less. Remember the thrill of pulling a refractor out of a 93 Finest pack? How about one of those rare UD GU jersey cards the first year they were inserted? How about any auto in the early 1990s? Well now every 8 pack booster box at Wal-Mart has 3 refractors, a game used jersey/bat card, and an auto. They did the same thing with rookie cards in the mid-late 90s. The 1200 card Bowman Chrome set with 90 percent of the cards picturing players that hadn't sniffed the majors wasn't enough to have you covered? A Rookie/Traded set was necessary? Really?

To give you a parallel, it would be like the NFL capitalizing on the success of the league by adding 20 teams to the league and 30 games to the schedule. We'd get tired of the NFL fast.

I wouldn't say reacting to demand is entirely accurate. Overreacting is more appropriate. If people like what you're doing, don't kill it by going overboard.

I agree with what you said about the height of the hobby and industry in the late 80s being an abberration. But I'm in disagreement with blaming collectors for its demise. In fact, the more I think about it, along with the major card companies, I would blame the Leagues and Player's Associations for signing off on the rights to print cards to every fly-by-night that wanted to cash in on the strength of the hobby. It was like a freaking gold rush with every company acting on whatever stupid gimmick their marketing department would come up with, but I guess you can't blame those guys for trying to make a buck. They just had no idea what they were doing and the hobby is comparitively weak as a result. With the continued popularity of sports in this country, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have sustained the popularity of cards by using a little discretion.

Lee

Lee

Buccaneer · October 15, 2006 7:08AM

Everyone is making good points, esp. Lee and Boo. I used to think that being very active in the late 1980s was one of my life's biggest regrets. But now I am thinking otherwise. I would have hated to have been caught up in the insert madness from 1993-whatever. You can say a lot of bad things about the late 1980s but at least those cards were cheap to buy and giving all of that stuff away would not amount to that much of a loss. If I were buying $3 packs or whatever and overpaying on artificially scarce cards, I would hate to be sitting on a pile of those. But I think the biggest regret for me was not so much what I bought in the late 1980s (or mid-1990s if I were buying things then) but what I didn't buy: high grade vintage and cheap pre-war cards.

CDsNuts · October 15, 2006 7:23AM

I, too, have fond memories of collecting back in the heyday. I remember going to Pace (our version of Costco back then) and being able to pick up a box of 90 Score for like $14.99 and have a ton of fun opening the packs in my mom's car on the way home looking for Bo Jackson FB/BB, and Kevin Maas and Dave Justice RC's, which I could easily get $4 a piece for if I wanted to sell them. Not only was it fun, but you easily got your money back from a box-break.

Lee

jmbkb4 · October 15, 2006 7:36AM

<< Does it seem like there were about 10-15 articles recently from guys who have no clue about the hobby? Of all people, I was reading Bill Simmons (ESPN) yesterday and he throws in a comment like, "The Royals are so f-ed up right now that it's translating to baseball cards. Topps even mistakenly (yeah, right!) inserted a few Alex Gordon cards into it's packs causing a furor to snatch them all up amongst the 10 people that still collect baseball cards"

These guys are pissed because their Dave Magadan and Kevin Maas cards tanked in the 90s. I guess they thought it ended all right there... >>

I agree, but is it that surprising that a non-collector would hold such beliefs?

If anyone from the outside read these boards, it often looks like a bunch of 12-year olds are posting. I mean, how mature is it that most "sophisticated vintage collectors" (ha ha) bash "shiny modern cards" at every opportunity?

Boopotts · October 15, 2006 7:47AM

<< 

<< Does it seem like there were about 10-15 articles recently from guys who have no clue about the hobby? Of all people, I was reading Bill Simmons (ESPN) yesterday and he throws in a comment like, "The Royals are so f-ed up right now that it's translating to baseball cards. Topps even mistakenly (yeah, right!) inserted a few Alex Gordon cards into it's packs causing a furor to snatch them all up amongst the 10 people that still collect baseball cards"

These guys are pissed because their Dave Magadan and Kevin Maas cards tanked in the 90s. I guess they thought it ended all right there... >>

I agree, but is it that surprising that a non-collector would hold such beliefs?

If anyone from the outside read these boards, it often looks like a bunch of 12-year olds are posting. I mean, how mature is it that most "sophisticated vintage collectors" (ha ha) bash "shiny modern cards" at every opportunity? >>

They don't bash ALL your shiny modern cards-- just the ones you try to pass off as unaltered.

RipublicaninMass · October 15, 2006 7:51AM

<< 
They don't bash ALL your shiny modern cards-- just the ones you try to pass off as unaltered. >>

Boopotts · October 15, 2006 1:54PM

<< Obviously the card companies wouldn't intentionally kill the industry, and they would do their best to react to demand. They just have a way of beating a dead horse until whatever cards were popular at one point in time is so saturated that the novelty of collecting said cards has worn off and collectors could care less. Remember the thrill of pulling a refractor out of a 93 Finest pack? How about one of those rare UD GU jersey cards the first year they were inserted? How about any auto in the early 1990s? Well now every 8 pack booster box at Wal-Mart has 3 refractors, a game used jersey/bat card, and an auto. They did the same thing with rookie cards in the mid-late 90s. The 1200 card Bowman Chrome set with 90 percent of the cards picturing players that hadn't sniffed the majors wasn't enough to have you covered? A Rookie/Traded set was necessary? Really?

To give you a parallel, it would be like the NFL capitalizing on the success of the league by adding 20 teams to the league and 30 games to the schedule. We'd get tired of the NFL fast.

I wouldn't say reacting to demand is entirely accurate. Overreacting is more appropriate. If people like what you're doing, don't kill it by going overboard.

I agree with what you said about the height of the hobby and industry in the late 80s being an abberration. But I'm in disagreement with blaming collectors for its demise. In fact, the more I think about it, along with the major card companies, I would blame the Leagues and Player's Associations for signing off on the rights to print cards to every fly-by-night that wanted to cash in on the strength of the hobby. It was like a freaking gold rush with every company acting on whatever stupid gimmick their marketing department would come up with, but I guess you can't blame those guys for trying to make a buck. They just had no idea what they were doing and the hobby is comparitively weak as a result. With the continued popularity of sports in this country, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have sustained the popularity of cards by using a little discretion.

Lee

Lee >>

The NFL would do that in a New York minute if they didn't think they'd get a diminishing (and eventually a negative) return for their efforts. Have Topps and UD gotten a negative return from their recent products? I don't know. But I would guess that they haven't, otherwise they would have changed their marketing philosophies. I agree with you on virtually every front here, Lee- I think modern products are a) overblown, b) too expensive, and c) have given the consumer way too much of a good thing, to the point where it's not even fun anymore. But just because that's what you or I think doesn't necessarily mean that's what the rest of the card collecting neanderthals think.

Let's say Topps sells a product that has 'x' number parallels, and UD sells comes out with a product two months later that has essentially the same player selection but '3x' number of parallels. Now let's assume the UD outsells the Topps product by a significant margin. What's Topps to do? They have to give the consumer a product that will compete with the UD product-- they don't have any choice. Even if they don't want to they still have to, since they can't tell their shareholders (or maybe they can, I'm just guessing they can't) that they're deliberately leaving $$ on the table to protect the integrity of the hobby. Now maybe the dynamic works like this, and maybe it doesn't. I'm guessing it does, but of course I don't really know. But it seems correct a priori, and I think I have at least the anecdotal evidence on my side. Remember when Ultimate came out? I believe that was the first $100 pack you could buy. People ate that up, so UD came out with Exquisite, that in turn was devoured by the morons, so Topps answers back with Triple Threads and now Sterling. Boom-- one company tries it, it works, so the others follow suit. But the only way one of these dumb ideas 'work' is if the hobby embraces it. If we, as collectors, tell UD and Topps that we'd rather use our recreational dollars on a week in St. Kitts during the winter rather then get gorilla f**ked on a pack of baseball cards they'll stop putting this stuff out. If we don't say no then they'll keep doing it.

Look at how totally off the chain this hobby is. Has anyone here actually tried to EXPLAIN this hobby-- either the vintage or modern side of it, it doesn't matter- to someone who has no interest? I've tried many, many times, and it's virtually impossible to do without sounding like a total doofus. Just for fun, show a non card collecting buddy a PSA 8 of a 1964 common, then show them a PSA 10 common from the same year, and try to expain why one card is worth 50x more than the other. You can't do it. They will reject your explanation. "Perfect under 5x magnification?' They'll ask. "Jesus Christ, WHO CARES!" Or tell them that there's a Lebron James RC that sells for $20K. They'll look at you like you just pulled off your BVD's and diddled their mother.

How screwed up is sports card collecting? Well, here's a decent barometer. It's so messed up that DEALERS are often at a loss to explain why people pay what they do for cards. I can remember selling a PSA 8 common from the 1967 Philly set for around $250 about 6 months ago, and when I told that to some dealers at the Gibraltar show they just flat out didn't believe me. "No way," they said, "Why would anyone pay $250 for a '67 Philly Falcons team card?" I actually had to bring in a hard copy of the auction sheet just to prove it.
THIS is the state of the hobby, and the reason it's like this IMO is because we've let it get that way. The prices that people pay for stuff are just so far out of line with what makes sense to a rational person that more folks then not just aren't going to get involved. Unless you're a little nutty you can't embrace this hobby. We all do here, but then we're all a little weird. And it's naive, IMO, to expect our fellow men to participate en masse in our weirdness.

Ahmanfan · October 15, 2006 2:44PM

to be honest, I don't understand the massive difference in price between a psa 8 and a psa 10 common card.

CDsNuts · October 15, 2006 11:54PM

Spot on boo. But what you're leaving out is what the card companies are failing to do that made the hobby take off in the first place- make card buying approachable in order to get non-collectors into the hobby. While Topps and UD have been catering to the hardcore collectors who will drop a couple hundred on a box or pack, like you said before, it just doesn't make sense to the average person. Anytime something major happens in sports with an athlete, non-collectors will take a quick dip into the hobby to get that person's rookie card (usually for investment purposes). This is a perfect opportunity to suck them into the hobby. Examples would be McGwire and Sosa when they had their run, Ripken when he broke the record, Ryan when he got his last no hitter, Jordan when he retired to play baseball, Tiger when he first started winning majors, etc.... Say Albert Pujols breaks 80 HR's next year, how many normal people are actually going to drop $3000 on his best RC? Furthermore, which of his 35 RC's will people want the most? What makes one that's numbered out of 2000 different than another that's numbered out of 2000? To the average person, or for that matter the average collector, cards are just confusing. I look on the shelf at a local card shop and have to ask what comes in what, and I get "this box is guaranteed and auto, this has two relic cards, that has combo auto/relic cards, that has auto RCs, blah blah blah....". At that point my head starts spinning and I leave the shop empty handed or buy some kind of vintage card.

And yes, I have tried to explain the hobby, and most recently grading to people, and they just look at you like their having some kind of anuerism. In fact, my aunt has a rare set 1910 Tip Top bread Pittsburgh Pirates that my grandfather bought about 15 years ago (they were antique dealers- not a bad find). The cards are in great shape and would no doubt be the highest graded set in existence based on what I see in the population report. I've been trying to convince her to submit to PSA for the last 5 years, so she finally called PSA to ask some questions because she really doesn't understand the point of grading. She calls me and says she didn't like the PSA rep's attitude, and their pricing is ridiculous, so she wants to send them to SGC. I'm trying to explain to her in laman's terms that getting them graded by PSA will add at least 50% to the value of the cards, SGC is going downhill, and their pricing isn't that much better than PSA's. None of this makes sense to her and why should it?

Lee

f2tornado · October 16, 2006 3:43AM

Thanks for all the quality responses folks. That was some of the best reading on a trading card forum I've come across. My opinion on the subject has been covered in one post or another so no need to rehash. Just very happy to see a mature roundtable type discussion here and one reason I like this forum over others.

phreakydancin · October 16, 2006 8:21AM

<< I'm trying to explain to her in laman's terms that getting them graded by PSA will add at least 50% to the value of the cards, SGC is going downhill, and their pricing isn't that much better than PSA's. >>

I was under the impression that SGC was the leader in pre-war authentication and grading. Did something change?

Stone193 · October 16, 2006 9:00AM

<< But what you're leaving out is what the card companies are failing to do that made the hobby take off in the first place- make card buying approachable in order to get non-collectors into the hobby. >>

Lee

Did you read my post.

The card companies are trying to bring in the young kids and newcomers. Sales are up. Products are down with more realistic choices on the horizon.

The early 90s was bad for the hobby IMO - the card companies only did what the people wanted - to buy hoards of cases in hopes of funding retirement homes.

If the card companies can only figure a way to take the lottery mentality out of collecting? I know that will not happen anytime soon.

There's plenty of affordable product out there for all sports.

Things are actually looking up.
mike

Buccaneer · October 16, 2006 9:26AM

<< 

<< I'm trying to explain to her in laman's terms that getting them graded by PSA will add at least 50% to the value of the cards, SGC is going downhill, and their pricing isn't that much better than PSA's. >>

I was under the impression that SGC was the leader in pre-war authentication and grading. Did something change? >>

I thought so too.

CDsNuts · October 16, 2006 12:02PM

Stone- You are probably right. The fact of the matter is the "new card" hobby lost me around 1999. Maybe the consolidation of card companies helped, but I'm of the thinking that there shouldn't have been so many in the first place.

As far as PSA vs. SGC goes, I think traditionally SGC has been the way to go for pre-war cards, but PSA's momentum, their marketing, and the popularity of the set registry has them leaving everybody else in the dust. When I said SGC was going downhill, I meant I don't think they are able to keep up with PSA- not that the quality of their service had declined. To be honest, I've always thought their grading was a touch more consistent and accurate than PSA, but as we all know, success in business is not only about offering a great product. If I had to spend $500-$1000 to grade a pre-war set that I may want to sell in 10-20 years, I'd go with PSA. Frankly, I'm not sure how SGC can survive with not many collectors sending in cards after 1970.

Lee

Estil · October 16, 2006 12:18PM

<< The 1200 card Bowman Chrome set with 90 percent of the cards picturing players that hadn't sniffed the majors wasn't enough to have you covered? A Rookie/Traded set was necessary? Really? >>

1200 cards??? Since when? What year did this set come out? I thought the days of 800-900 card sets were done away with after 1993 or so. Any other 1000+ card baseball sets that have come out? And which ones were actually worth the 1000 cards? I mean, I certainly loved the 1991-92 Score sets; they're dirt cheap but at almost 900 cards each, you can't say you don't get your money's worth.

CDsNuts · October 16, 2006 12:37PM

Sorry, was just exaggerrating a little. I think they were like 400-500 cards, but my point was to mock the fact that that most of the cards were of players that were at AA ball or lower, and they still felt the need to make an extended set because maybe there were some rookies they missed. I guess you could argue that some people wanted cards of traded players in their new uniforms, but I doubt anybody's paying $50-100 a set for them.

Lee

Boopotts · October 16, 2006 3:13PM

<< Spot on boo. But what you're leaving out is what the card companies are failing to do that made the hobby take off in the first place- make card buying approachable in order to get non-collectors into the hobby. While Topps and UD have been catering to the hardcore collectors who will drop a couple hundred on a box or pack, like you said before, it just doesn't make sense to the average person. Anytime something major happens in sports with an athlete, non-collectors will take a quick dip into the hobby to get that person's rookie card (usually for investment purposes). This is a perfect opportunity to suck them into the hobby. Examples would be McGwire and Sosa when they had their run, Ripken when he broke the record, Ryan when he got his last no hitter, Jordan when he retired to play baseball, Tiger when he first started winning majors, etc.... Say Albert Pujols breaks 80 HR's next year, how many normal people are actually going to drop $3000 on his best RC? Furthermore, which of his 35 RC's will people want the most? What makes one that's numbered out of 2000 different than another that's numbered out of 2000? To the average person, or for that matter the average collector, cards are just confusing. I look on the shelf at a local card shop and have to ask what comes in what, and I get "this box is guaranteed and auto, this has two relic cards, that has combo auto/relic cards, that has auto RCs, blah blah blah....". At that point my head starts spinning and I leave the shop empty handed or buy some kind of vintage card.

And yes, I have tried to explain the hobby, and most recently grading to people, and they just look at you like their having some kind of anuerism. In fact, my aunt has a rare set 1910 Tip Top bread Pittsburgh Pirates that my grandfather bought about 15 years ago (they were antique dealers- not a bad find). The cards are in great shape and would no doubt be the highest graded set in existence based on what I see in the population report. I've been trying to convince her to submit to PSA for the last 5 years, so she finally called PSA to ask some questions because she really doesn't understand the point of grading. She calls me and says she didn't like the PSA rep's attitude, and their pricing is ridiculous, so she wants to send them to SGC. I'm trying to explain to her in laman's terms that getting them graded by PSA will add at least 50% to the value of the cards, SGC is going downhill, and their pricing isn't that much better than PSA's. None of this makes sense to her and why should it?

Lee >>

But Lee, remember that there was a time when card collecting was affordable and accessible to everyone-- i.e., every year before the strike in 1994. And the result was that prices crashed because of over production. I don't think any hard core modern collector wants to go back to 1989, when there are three sets, all of which can be bought by the pack at Walgreens, and all of which won't be worth the pape they're printed on in 10 years.

Now maybe there's some kind of golden mean in the middle. Perhaps they could do something like still mass produce the base cards, sell 'em cheaply by the pack, and sneak in just enough high dollar parallels to keep guys drooling. But I think that card collecting, like most other things, has evolved the way it has for a reason. Hell, there are ALL KINDS of things I don't understand. Who needs a freaking camera on their cell phone? For that matter, who needs a cell phone? But the market evolves in response to demand. The suppliers may initially CREATE the demand-- I won't argue otherwise- but after that the market morphs to meet the demands of the consumer. The reason we have this current state of affairs in the hobby is, IMO, because most collectors like it this way. Now that's not that they wouldn't like to see improvements. I think everyone would like to see more 'value' in a box of cards, for instance. But the basic structure of the modern market has evolved in direct response to consumer demand. Certain products outsell others, the card companies produce more of these better selling products, and viola! You have the market place.

Is it dumb? I think so. Do you have be either a) allergic to money, b) impossibly bored and obscenely wealthy, or c) cursed with the learning curve of a sand flea in order to keep going back and buying more of these ridiculous boxes? Again, I'd say yes- or at least that's my opinion. But collectors, in the aggregate, will eventually get the hobby they want. It may not be EXACTLY what they want, but the rough stuff of it will be consistent with their demands.

I think the pieces start falling into place once you acknowledge that most card collectors aren't very bright, and their actions, therefore, tend to be relatively consistent with the kinds of actions you see from dumb people. This is the case with many (but not all) markets, so I'm not declaring that card collectors are defined by a singular stupidity, but this dynamic has certainly influenced the landscape of the hobby. If everyone was like me, or you, the hobby would be much different- and it would be different regardless of the wishes of Topps and UD.

Edit to add: I hope all of this doesn't sound holier than thou. Not that I'm at all adverse to being snide and condescending (surprise surprise), but I try not to get that way unless I have concrete evidence to back up m argument or if my argument is logically unassailable. Neither of those conditions apply here, obviously, since I don't have any actual evidence to back this up, so I completely accept the fact that other's may have a different viewpoint on this than I do.

CDsNuts · October 17, 2006 12:26AM

Boo, you forgot one other scenario that leads people to go back and keep buying new boxes- d) you are developing gambling problem. I know this was the case for me back in the mid-90's, when I was busting box after box, selling the singles, then buying more boxes. Couldn't help myself. Luckily I discovered poker and was able to harness and focus my penchant for risking money, turning it into a profitable way to feed the beast. I just wasn't smart enough back then to come up with a card buying strategy that would limit my losses, or maybe even turn a buck or two.

Also, I'm not sure you're right about the current marketplace. Regardless of what the companies put out, they will sell product because there are enough people collecting that will buy whatever is hot. Most of what's selling is going through retail outlets like Wal Mart and Target. These sales aren't necessarily representative of hobby trends because a large percentage of these sales are from impulse buys, pack searchers, and people reselling on ebay. None of these people are "collectors", or really care about the cards they are buying. This is backed up by the fact that when you go to a card show, about 70% of the tables are vintage (pre war-early 90s), 20% are new cards (90s-today), and 10% are mixed.

But overall, I agree with most of what you said.

Lee

phreakydancin · October 17, 2006 2:53AM

<< Stone- You are probably right. The fact of the matter is the "new card" hobby lost me around 1999. Maybe the consolidation of card companies helped, but I'm of the thinking that there shouldn't have been so many in the first place.

As far as PSA vs. SGC goes, I think traditionally SGC has been the way to go for pre-war cards, but PSA's momentum, their marketing, and the popularity of the set registry has them leaving everybody else in the dust. When I said SGC was going downhill, I meant I don't think they are able to keep up with PSA- not that the quality of their service had declined. To be honest, I've always thought their grading was a touch more consistent and accurate than PSA, but as we all know, success in business is not only about offering a great product. If I had to spend $500-$1000 to grade a pre-war set that I may want to sell in 10-20 years, I'd go with PSA. Frankly, I'm not sure how SGC can survive with not many collectors sending in cards after 1970.

Lee >>

We all know that PSA is a huge marketing juggernaut in comparison to SGC, and the latter may also be losing market share (maybe not - I really have no idea), but I believe they are on a sound enough footing to stick around for the long haul, and I think when we are talking obscure vintage issues, the potential buyers are familiar enough with SGC that there would be no significant premium attached to either grading company's slabs.

Getting sick of these writers talking $hit about the hobby

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