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I need advice on this... Is this a doctored card in a PSA holder? (Better pic added)

envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
This is a rather prominent athlete. As you can probably tell it's a 1970 Topps football which currently resides in a PSA 8 holder.

I was looking at some stuff that I thought might be a bit undergraded and a candidate for a resubmit. This is one of my cards I wanted to take a very close look at, unfortunately I was disappointed to find a perfect square that is about 3/32" square on the left edge. It showed up as I was kind of tilting the card in the room light...so I put it under my halogen lamp and it stood out like a glowing ember. So I put the 10x loupe on it and it is a perfect square that has a seam all way around. It almost looks like a clear sticker. If you hold it at an angle in the light you can actually see that it's a different surface than the rest of the card.

I tried scanning at 4800 dpi but it didn't pick it up very well so I put it up to the light (shining through the back) and took a picture... you can see it plain as day on the left edge, that bright "flash" mark is actually light coming through the card. I would love to hear your thoughts.

image

Edited to say: I bought the card on ebay over a year ago, I won't mention the sellers name but he sells a lot of psa graded cards and no, it's not DSL or 4SC. Also if you go to the root of the photobucket you can see a couple other attempts at pictures of the flaw as well. They're a little blurry, but you get the idea.

-Josh
image
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Comments

  • wolfbearwolfbear Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭

    I see the face of Jesus morphing into the face of Elvis
    morphing into the picture of delicious grilled cheese sandwich ... image





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  • schr1stschr1st Posts: 1,677 ✭✭
    mmmmm....Grilled Elvis Sandwich..... drooooollllllllll

    In all seriousness, if you have a question about the card, contact PSA, tell them your concerns, and ask if they can review it. If it's a potential WIWAG issue, they'll be quite happy that you've contacted them. If it's an overgrade, then they'll help you out.
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  • lostdart58lostdart58 Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I see the face of Jesus morphing into the face of Elvis
    morphing into the picture of delicious grilled cheese sandwich ... image >>



    I think it is the newly discovered moon near Uranus.


    ........Sorry envoy98 .................. I know you are looking for serious responses here but that picture doesn't show me anything.............and what is the secrecy about the identify of the card? Prominent athlete?
    Collector of:Baseball
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  • ldfergldferg Posts: 6,745 ✭✭✭
    looks like a 70 simpson. if you look at the card without turning it to the light is it noticeable? do you think it's overgraded or how are you concerned that it is doctored (in what way)?


    Thanks,

    David (LD_Ferg)



    1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
  • jomerjomer Posts: 254
    looks like a print imperfection...so what

    no conspiricy and probably slabbed correctly.........
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,607 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If it's a potential WIWAG issue, they'll be quite happy that you've contacted them. >>



    Now THIS is funny image
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • packCollectorpackCollector Posts: 2,786 ✭✭✭
    all I see is a big blur of a picture. doubt anyone has a clue from that scan. good luck
  • meuandthelotmeuandthelot Posts: 183 ✭✭
    that bright "flash" mark is actually light coming through the card. I would love to hear your thoughts.


    So there was hole, or tear and it has been repaired..correct?
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  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭
    It's my OJ rookie. I just didn't want to have to say it out loud... image



    << <i>that bright "flash" mark is actually light coming through the card. I would love to hear your thoughts.

    So there was hole, or tear and it has been repaired..correct? >>



    Yes, there is an obvious "repair" it is literally a perfect square 3/32" in size. There is an obvious seam around it and as you can see (though I realize it's blurry) that there is light coming through the card. What's odd is you can't see anything on the back of the card so it appears it's on the front only. The only way to get it to show up on camera was to hold it with one hand and try to steady my other hand to snap the pic. The scanner barely picked it up at 4800 dpi you could just see the surface difference but the light didn't come off as well as it does with the camera. When you hold it at an angle in the light the "square" actually glows off the card, it becomes VERY obvious that it's there.

    Now aside from the off chance I get Golden Palace to buy this as Jesus' face.... I would like to hear some other thoughts.
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  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭


    << <i>looks like a 70 simpson. if you look at the card without turning it to the light is it noticeable? do you think it's overgraded or how are you concerned that it is doctored (in what way)? >>



    Yes it's OJ. Now that I know where it is, yes, I can see it just fine. Getting it to show up for the camera, is a bit more tricky. It's not a print imperfection and I've looked at every other 70 Topps I have and to no surprise, it doesn't occur on any others.
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  • nightcrawlernightcrawler Posts: 5,110 ✭✭
    Hi envoy, doesn't your camera have a macro setting? I'd sure like to see this (repair) close up image
  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭
    Hmm, I have noticed that some late 60s, early 70s Topps cards used impure cardboard in their printing process. I've found bits of wood, seeds, and even what looked like part of a bug embedded in cards from this era. I know that the 1970 Topps football and baseball cards have two thin layers of white paper (front and back) sandwiching a piece of brown cardboard. It's possible that there's something stuck in the middle layer that's less dence than the regular card stock allowing for light to show through), perhaps a rogue piece of white paper, or some other junk. It could be that there was a hole in the cardboard as it was being produced (maybe a piece of junk fell out, or a machine punched a hole through it), and it was used anyway with that subtle imperfection. So, you'd have a piece of cardboard with a hole in it, sandwiched between two thin pieces of white paper with print.

    You said that you can't tell the hole's there from the back. Is there any evidence that the hole is there just by inspecting the surface? Can you see any break or cut marks, or does it all blend together naturally? Does it look like the surface "sunk" into the hole a little? Or does it look like someone recolored the repaired area?


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  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,439 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hi Keith

    I'm kind of lost with the scan.

    Could ya just scan the card and post it with about 450 pixel width and if possible just scan a bit larger and just focus in on that corner?

    Also, if you feel it was repaired - how about shipping it back to PSA for review?

    thanx
    mike
    Mike
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,607 ✭✭✭✭
    What grade is the card?
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭


    << <i>Hmm, I have noticed that some late 60s, early 70s Topps cards used impure cardboard in their printing process. I've found bits of wood, seeds, and even what looked like part of a bug embedded in cards from this era. I know that the 1970 Topps football and baseball cards have two thin layers of white paper (front and back) sandwiching a piece of brown cardboard. It's possible that there's something stuck in the middle layer that's less dence than the regular card stock allowing for light to show through), perhaps a rogue piece of white paper, or some other junk. It could be that there was a hole in the cardboard as it was being produced (maybe a piece of junk fell out, or a machine punched a hole through it), and it was used anyway with that subtle imperfection. So, you'd have a piece of cardboard with a hole in it, sandwiched between two thin pieces of white paper with print.

    You said that you can't tell the hole's there from the back. Is there any evidence that the hole is there just by inspecting the surface? Can you see any break or cut marks, or does it all blend together naturally? Does it look like the surface "sunk" into the hole a little? Or does it look like someone recolored the repaired area? >>



    Under 10x, the print marks which have sort of a swirl pattern on this issue, the marks on the "repaired" area go in a different direction. It's obviously a patch. there is a seam all the way around the square, it's not sunk, it looks a bit raised in fact. Under the loupe and tilted in the light the square looks scuffed like a piece of plastic, only other way I can explain that might make sense is that it almost looks like a really small clear sticker was stuck on the card, but of course that wouldn't allow light through.
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  • digicatdigicat Posts: 8,551 ✭✭
    If the slab doesn't look tampered, it looks like the patch job got through undetected. PSA pays you back for stuff like this, don't they?
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  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭


    << <i>Hi Keith

    I'm kind of lost with the scan.

    Could ya just scan the card and post it with about 450 pixel width and if possible just scan a bit larger and just focus in on that corner?

    Also, if you feel it was repaired - how about shipping it back to PSA for review?

    thanx
    mike >>



    I tried that, and the light is what really makes it shine, maybe I'll try putting the halogen lamp over the scanner. I had the card pitched on the scanner to see if that would help but even at high res it comes out blurry still. As for shipping it back to PSA I have no problem doing that now that I've discovered it. I would like to hear others thoughts on this... has anyone done it, what have your experiences been? I paid almost 50% over SMR for this card because it was well centered and the color was fantastic. When they agree with me that something is amiss, and I'm certain they will, do they just crack the card out of the case, give you some vouchers worth SMR value and say sorry?

    Had I not been looking at some potential upgrades I probably wouldn't have noticed it as I didn't look at it with a loupe when I purchased it off ebay.
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  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,607 ✭✭✭✭
    From what I understand, you will get SMR for the card, nothing higher. I think you actually get a check as opposed to vouchers, but I'm not positive on that.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭


    << <i>From what I understand, you will get SMR for the card, nothing higher. I think you actually get a check as opposed to vouchers, but I'm not positive on that. >>



    Anybody ever done this? What happens to the card, does PSA just buy it from you? Do they crack it out of the holder and give it back to you?
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  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭
    Took this with the camera through the magnifying glass... You don't see the surface imperfections as clearly but you can see the raised texture and the obvious "perfect square".

    image

    Scanning proved completely futile.
    image
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  • nightcrawlernightcrawler Posts: 5,110 ✭✭
    Looks like a factory defect through the magnifying glass, the cards texture seems to flow through the square area. image

  • WizardsguildcardsWizardsguildcards Posts: 536
    I agree it looks like a factory defect a repair would have a definite boundry around the square, like nightcrawler said this one it just flows evenly together. It could be a small bit of the cardboard from another card that got pressed in between the cardboard and the white paper.
  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭
    The "seam" that exists all the way around it just doesn't show up on the camera very well. There is a defined edge all the way around it. Think of what it would look like if you put a clear sticker on the card, if it weren't in the holder, I could peel this square off the card.
    image
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  • earlycalguyearlycalguy Posts: 1,247 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>From what I understand, you will get SMR for the card, nothing higher. I think you actually get a check as opposed to vouchers, but I'm not positive on that. >>



    Anybody ever done this? What happens to the card, does PSA just buy it from you? Do they crack it out of the holder and give it back to you? >>



    I've had them offer me a few things

    1) they pay you smr for the card - you don't get to keep the card.
    2) they offer vouches in value worth more than smr
    3) if it comes back a lower grade then you keep the lower graded card and they pay you the difference of the grades.

    JoelTextText
  • nightcrawlernightcrawler Posts: 5,110 ✭✭
    Maybe it's a foriegn object, like a piece of glass or plastic, that would explain the transparency.

    This "seam" could be a result of wear from cards on top in the pack. Maybe the grader has seen this before.

    Actually, if you invert it, I think you can see the Lord almighty image
    image


    All joking aside, if your not happy with the card and want to let it go, I'll give you what you paid image
  • Brian48Brian48 Posts: 2,624 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Maybe it's a foriegn object, like a piece of glass or plastic, that would explain the transparency.

    This "seam" could be a result of wear from cards on top in the pack. Maybe the grader has seen this before.

    Actually, if you invert it, I think you can see the Lord almighty image
    image


    All joking aside, if your not happy with the card and want to let it go, I'll give you what you paid image >>



    Oh my gosh. There has to be a connection!

    image
  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Maybe it's a foriegn object, like a piece of glass or plastic, that would explain the transparency.

    This "seam" could be a result of wear from cards on top in the pack. Maybe the grader has seen this before.

    Actually, if you invert it, I think you can see the Lord almighty image
    image


    All joking aside, if your not happy with the card and want to let it go, I'll give you what you paid image >>



    Oh my gosh. There has to be a connection!

    image >>



    Crap, I could get rich off this thing, maybe it's not a curse, maybe it's a blessing...maybe it holds the key to the OJ case?
    image
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  • envoy98envoy98 Posts: 4,000 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>From what I understand, you will get SMR for the card, nothing higher. I think you actually get a check as opposed to vouchers, but I'm not positive on that. >>



    Anybody ever done this? What happens to the card, does PSA just buy it from you? Do they crack it out of the holder and give it back to you? >>



    I've had them offer me a few things

    1) they pay you smr for the card - you don't get to keep the card.
    2) they offer vouches in value worth more than smr
    3) if it comes back a lower grade then you keep the lower graded card and they pay you the difference of the grades.

    JoelTextText >>



    Thanks Brian, that's what I was looking for.
    image
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