Utley 0 for 5, Streak Ends at 35
thegemmintman
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Joltin Joe's streak will never be broken!
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Did you know that Joe D started another streak right after the game in which 56-game streak was snapped which lasted 16 games? I suppose all the official scorers weren't aware that the 56-game streak had been broken then!
Joe D. was a bit of a pr1ick and an arrogant SOB at times, but you can't deny that he was one of ther sweetest hitters in baseball history. His ratio of career strikeouts to home runs is absolutely incredible for a guy that hit that many homers in his career, and while on the field he played the game with total dignity and respect.
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<< <i>I assume you saw these "favorable calls" or know when they occured and what circumstances? I'm pretty sure he didn't go "golden sombrero" and someone fudged a box score right? >>
It's a pretty widely held assumption, if you look around and read accounts of people who were there back then, you'll see that. Here's an example -
<< <i>Joe DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak is said to be the mountain nobody can climb, the river nobody can swim, the door forever locked.
And now come sad words for those who believe what DiMaggio did in 1941 is baseball's Holy Grail. C. David Stephan says the record is a fraud.
Some background first.
Until the 1980s, official scoring in baseball was done by baseball writers who covered the home teams. And back in DiMaggio's days, newspapers did not pay travel expenses for their baseball writers, the team did - travel, rooms, meals. So, the writers were beholden to the teams they covered. And if they were official scorers, they were inclined to rule in favor of the home team.
That brings us to C. David Stephan, the ol' spoil sport.
Dan Daniel of the New York World-Telegram was the primary scorer at Yankee Stadium and was one of DiMaggio's arch supporters. Stephan says many borderline calls - hits that could have been errors - were ruled hits for DiMaggio.
"This is one of baseball's dirty little secrets," said Stephan, a baseball historian specializing in hitting streaks. "DiMaggio's streak is a scandal. Dan Daniel made many questionable calls in DiMaggio's favor and it was widely talked about at the time. The writers and players played cards together on the trains. It was very incestuous."
>>
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"Until the 1980s, official scoring in baseball was done by baseball writers who covered the home teams."
And yet no one but one of the best pure hitter ever in the game got close to Joe D's record. Hmmm. Makes you think eh?
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So I guess at least Joe D's hits on the road had to be solid for the streak to continue.
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<< <i>It's a pretty widely held assumption, if you look around and read accounts of people who were there back then, you'll see that. Here's an example -
>>
see, this is what is so funny man. Jerry, did you know that Ted Williams "supposed" .400 batting average was bull$hit too if these "questionable" calls were really counted by those who wish to do nothing but cry? I doubt you would put stock in THAT would ya?
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
<< <i>It's a pretty widely held assumption, if you look around and read accounts of people who were there back then, you'll see that. Here's an example -
>>
see, this is what is so funny man. Jerry, did you know that Ted Williams "supposed" .400 batting average was bull$hit too if these "questionable" calls were really counted by those who wish to do nothing but cry? I doubt you would put stock in THAT would ya? >>
I don't recall seeing the same criticism of Williams .406 season, but if there's some evidence out there, bring it on!
<< <i>I definitely get what you're saying ToppsCollector, just pointing out that a lot of people have issues with the 56 game streak, and it's been mentioned many, many times over the years. By people who were around back then, not just people from our era. >>
ALOT of people have issues with the YANKEES. The average Joe all the way up to media guys who have a much bigger soap box in which to yell from. And they will go to GREAT lengths to MAKE SURE that the Yankees and everything that has been accomplished by them as a team and as individual players are minimized as much as possible. The same rules the critics use to tear down these stats are not used in other instances such as Ted Williams .400 plus season .....
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
I don't recall seeing the same criticism of Williams .406 season, but if there's some evidence out there, bring it on! >>
Jerry, you are missing the point. Joe D's streak is critized because he was a Yankee. There is NO doubt that you would be able to find enough "border line" calls to bring Ted's average down below .400 if you wanted to cry enough. But Ted was not a Yankee .... thus no crying
and that "evidence" you speak of is mere SPECUALTION. You can bring up all of the articles you want about so and so saying this and so and so saying that. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE unless you come forth with actual video tape to PROVE these things. So, what you are doing is taking the critcs words and running with them because this is what you would like to believe.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
For example, if an outfielder loses the ball in the sun (or the lights in the domes), were they always scored as hits like they are now? I seem to remember they were scored as errors back in the 1970s.
<< <i> The same rules the critics use to tear down these stats are not used in other instances such as Ted Williams .400 plus season ..... >>
Thats because Teddy Ballgame was the greatest hitter to ever live.
I do agree that people want bad things to happen to the Yankees I know I do but a record like Joey D's is a tremendous accomplishment, the bottom line is you can hack it up anyway you want and at the end of EVERY day its 56 games and nobody can touch it.
The point that connecticutcoin was making was based on your excerpt above which stated that because the local writers doubled as the official scorers during this era in baseball, that it was naturally to rule in favor of the home team when deciding if a play should be called a hit or an error. If Joe D. benefitted from that type of an arrangement, certainly other ballplayers like Ted Williams did, too. It's just that Joe D.'s streak gets much more scrutiny because it is such a milestone record in MLB history while Ted Williams's .406 average, while certainly significant, is not on that same level as far as being a baseball record. I also think that Ted was more popular a player than Joe D. was, for various reasons, so criticism of him is not as intense as a result. After all, the guy lost many prime years in his career fighting for our country in the military, and it wasn't an "Elvis" kind of military service either. He was involved in combat, too, while serving the U.S.
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Next one's on me soft!
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<< <i>Maybe I am not remembering the 1970's very well, but it seems to me that scoring then was tougher than it is now.
For example, if an outfielder loses the ball in the sun (or the lights in the domes), were they always scored as hits like they are now? I seem to remember they were scored as errors back in the 1970s. >>
I've found even in the past TEN years calling has been more and more favorable toward the hitter and the fielder(less errors called; more fielders choices and unexplained dropps that are listed as hits).
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<< <i>ctsoxfan,
The point that connecticutcoin was making was based on your excerpt above which stated that because the local writers doubled as the official scorers during this era in baseball, that it was naturally to rule in favor of the home team when deciding if a play should be called a hit or an error. If Joe D. benefitted from that type of an arrangement, certainly other ballplayers like Ted Williams did, too. It's just that Joe D.'s streak gets much more scrutiny because it is such a milestone record in MLB history while Ted Williams's .406 average, while certainly significant, is not on that same level as far as being a baseball record. I also think that Ted was more popular a player than Joe D. was, for various reasons, so criticism of him is not as intense as a result. After all, the guy lost many prime years in his career fighting for our country in the military, and it wasn't an "Elvis" kind of military service either. He was involved in combat, too, while serving the U.S. >>
I see this point - and I'm not saying the same couldn't be said about Williams streak. Your point is also true that Williams would be held to less scrutiny because of his popularity.
<< <i>I am not so sure there has always been this widespread "hatred" of the Yankees on a nationwide basis, as you seem to imply Dan. I could be wrong, but it seems like - while people have always generally not liked the Yankees, it seems more pronounced in our era due to the arrogance of the organization (for example, watch the YES network for 5 minutes) and the crazy spending of George which causes a lot of small market team fans to find the Yankees as being all that is wrong with baseball (perhaps they are right). It seems like people were commenting on the favoritism in the streak back then, not just now. Just a thought. >>
Well, the YES network is self-serving. Sortof like TNT and Braves baseball. When you turn it on, you know what to expect(completely biased opinions). Well, the KC Royals and the NY Yankees were very "chum-my" to say the least back in the 50's and that outraged a lot of fans and owners. Let's add to the fact by the time Joey D donned the pinstripes the Yankees had just conceieved the most dominant era EVER for any one team in any sports league. Although millions loved them, it was the same way with the "hatred" towards them.
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Those die hard baseball fans will watch no matter what's happening, but for baseball to regain some traction, and get back fans its lost to football and other sports, it needs more compelling stories, it needs records to be broken, it needs to have its players embraced and promoted - something that the NBA does infinitely better than MLB.
Bring on the records - and let em all fall.
Well, today's players certainly have better pharmacists that's for sure!
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<< <i> I like it when records fall...it shows that today's players are every bit as good as the ones of years past, and then some.Text
Well, today's players certainly have better pharmacists that's for sure!
And more strict workout routines, better diets, more advanced medical procedures.
You forgot cleaner needles, and "personal trainers" too.
And Babe Ruth did pretty well on hotdogs and beer!
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<< <i>And more strict workout routines, better diets, more advanced medical procedures.
You forgot cleaner needles, and "personal trainers" too.
And Babe Ruth did pretty well on hotdogs and beer!
Imagine what he would have done had he had today's fitness and workout knowledge, as well as the liveball era? 1000 HRs?
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<< <i>
And Babe Ruth did pretty well on hotdogs and beer!
Imagine what he would have done had he had today's fitness and workout knowledge, as well as the liveball era? 1000 HRs? >>
Orrrrr, todays fast food joints like McDonalds and KFC would have done him in much quicker
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<< <i>Today's scorekeeping is far more generous to the batter. It seems like in the 80s if the defensive player got a glove on it but couldn't make the play it was an error. Now if it's a tough play or tough throw, the batter gets the hit. >>
Yep, if anyone was watching the Mets game last night there was a clear example. David Wright CLEARLY made an error attempting a backhand grab of a wormburner. It took a short hop and bounced off the wrist of his glove, and the hitter was credited for a hit.
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<< <i>Today's scorekeeping is far more generous to the batter. It seems like in the 80s if the defensive player got a glove on it but couldn't make the play it was an error. Now if it's a tough play or tough throw, the batter gets the hit. >>
That's a pretty broad statement that's next to impossible to back up.
But back on D's streak, it's widely known that he was given credit for at least 3 hits that were clearly errors.
Ax, if you saw the Mets game yesterday I gave a clearcut example. Tough play yes, but the fact is Wright got a glove on the ball and made an error in the field of play without diving for it. But, it was ruled a hit by whoever runs that.
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<< <i>Ax, could you provide when these errors were charged as hits and who that was there(reports, pressbox guys, stat keepers)?
Ax, if you saw the Mets game yesterday I gave a clearcut example. Tough play yes, but the fact is Wright got a glove on the ball and made an error in the field of play without diving for it. But, it was ruled a hit by whoever runs that. >>
Link
"...DiMaggio hit two grounders in back-to-back games (Nos. 30 and 31) that Chicago shortstop Luke Appling failed to field. They could have been called errors. Instead, both went down as hits. They were DiMaggio's only hits in those two games.
It helped that DiMaggio's friend, newspaperman Dan Daniel, was the official scorer in both games."
Link 2
"The first of his two hits that day came on a scoring decision so outrageous that even the New York writers held their noses. "