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Just Got back From the National.....
fullerfun4
Posts: 385
Hello all! I just got back from the National in Anaheim. I had a table there but left a day early. I don't know about anyone else, but it didn't seem like a real National to me. Not much excitement. I saw the ex-Gretsky Honus Wagner card and it was something. There were alot of really interesting things there, but....
There was a dealer there (DSD cards of Santa Barbara) that had some of the most interesting cards and items that I'd seen it quite a while. Some great early Hockey and Football, as well as Baseball. It was stuff you don't see every day.
The prices were extreme, especially on anything pre-war. Not much demand for later date stuff unless it was a bargain. I did ok. I sold alot of my HOF tobacco cards and autographed stuff. I also sold a lot of mid grade 50's and 60's baseball as well. I guess anything will sell if it is priced right. Most of my stuff was scooped up by other dealers.
It seemed no one was there to sell. I think that Ebay has educated everyone to know what things are worth and has given even the most novice of sellers a window of opportunity to sell, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on your own point of view.
I had one person offer me a low-mid-grade 33 Goudey Babe Ruth. He said he didn't know what he wanted for it, but had seen one "just like it" sell for $2750 on Ebay. I told him that the SMR on it was $2200, and he said he wanted $2700. I thanked him for the opportunity but that he should sell it himself on Ebay.
I think that one of the main problems was that the admission price ($17.50 at the door) was exorbitant and parking was $9.00. None of the days were very crowded. People were generally pleasant but not too much excitement (as I said).
I hope anyone else who went had a good time and felt some excitement that I didn't.
Regards
Gary
There was a dealer there (DSD cards of Santa Barbara) that had some of the most interesting cards and items that I'd seen it quite a while. Some great early Hockey and Football, as well as Baseball. It was stuff you don't see every day.
The prices were extreme, especially on anything pre-war. Not much demand for later date stuff unless it was a bargain. I did ok. I sold alot of my HOF tobacco cards and autographed stuff. I also sold a lot of mid grade 50's and 60's baseball as well. I guess anything will sell if it is priced right. Most of my stuff was scooped up by other dealers.
It seemed no one was there to sell. I think that Ebay has educated everyone to know what things are worth and has given even the most novice of sellers a window of opportunity to sell, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on your own point of view.
I had one person offer me a low-mid-grade 33 Goudey Babe Ruth. He said he didn't know what he wanted for it, but had seen one "just like it" sell for $2750 on Ebay. I told him that the SMR on it was $2200, and he said he wanted $2700. I thanked him for the opportunity but that he should sell it himself on Ebay.
I think that one of the main problems was that the admission price ($17.50 at the door) was exorbitant and parking was $9.00. None of the days were very crowded. People were generally pleasant but not too much excitement (as I said).
I hope anyone else who went had a good time and felt some excitement that I didn't.
Regards
Gary
We are always better off than we deserve. 
0
Comments
Thanx for the report.
Glad you did ok anyways.
That's a bit for the gate but it is the National - and I would've thought people would ignore the high price.
I think I remember the 92 National was like 6 bucks to get in?
People from the boards have become friends over time and I would like to go - just to hang out with some of them.
I had met Griffins when he came to San Antonio - great guy! Very generous. I look forward to meeting a lot of people.
It's kind of disappointing about the crowd size. Heck, I remember when there would be like 50-60K people who would attend the show.
What is the current estimate of the amount of attendees?
And BTW, I saw the old Gretsky Honus also - and I agree - it's sharp looking - some say too sharp?
Again, thanx for the report
mike
done quite well so far. It might appear that advanced collectors
prefer to look at purchasing their primo card over buying something sight unseen on ebay, as once bought there, you're stuck with it.
I felt overall this show was much more exciting for me than Cleveland ever was for a National. The number of dealers exhibiting was
not as big as Cleveland or Chicago, but that is the loss of those
who chose not to treck to CA to support the National to sell.
My opinion!
<< <i>
And BTW, I saw the old Gretsky Honus also - and I agree - it's sharp looking - some say too sharp?
mike >>
Dumb question, Is that card graded? If so by who?
Thanks
Matt
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
<< <i>
<< <i>
And BTW, I saw the old Gretsky Honus also - and I agree - it's sharp looking - some say too sharp?
mike >>
Dumb question, Is that card graded? If so by who?
Thanks
Matt >>
It's graded an "8" by PSA.
Steve
Matt
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
The hobbyists carrying want lists are still the backbone of the industry and they were out in full force. I do agree with Maraya that high grade was driving a lot of the action but that's typical at a show like this. Yet there was one dealer who carried NOTHING but monster boxes filled with cheap post-1975 stuff (nothing over $1) and he was doing tremendous business.
Many people complain about the lack of new collectors entering the hobby. I'm not sure we necessarily "need" a National for what it offers beyond any other major show, but the industry does need a National to keep the focus on this hobby in the mainstream media. 3 LA TV stations were there, plus LA's ESPN radio station, the LA Times, Orange County Register, Yahoo sports and CNN Money. The industry makes this a major yearly event and that is how it's perceived. Sports fans who see those stories do get turned on to this hobby. Without the coverage, they might not give it a thought. So I believe the National is here to stay and that it's a necessity for those who depend upon it for a living...or like having like-minded people to coverse with on boards like this.
<< <i>The prewar was not much in demand, but demand leaned more towards high end 50's, 60's and even 70's. >>
This is a surprise. I heard other dealers saying the exact opposite. They were busy selling pre-war stuff, but couldn't get anyone to look at their 60s and 70s cards. Congrats. Nice to hear you had a nice show.
The attendance seemed really low in comparison to Cleveland and Chicago. I was there all day Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and most of the day Friday. Dealers seemed to have much less on their tables since many came from the east coast and midwest (and whined non stop about having to come out to California) but there was much more quality material.
I stopped by tonite on my way out to dinner with a few table holders and they said Anaheim had been killed for '09 in favor of Houston. It's really not about what is best for the hobby or dealers, but rather what is best for the promoter and easiest for the dealers, especially the old timers with high priority table selection.
Bottom line is ebay is killing shows. Why pay 3X ebay prices for the privelege of picking it up in person. LOTS of stuff went unsold. Cleveland was better than Chicago which was better than Anaheim. Ft. Washington is done at least for a while, Hollywood Park is a waste of time, and the SF show is in rapid decline. I printed up a clean concise wantlist, but when I tried to hand it to dealers they didn't want any part of it. One told me if he had any of those he'd put it on ebay. Service is history for many.
Fuller mentioned DCD sports having a great table. It's the first time Doug and Trevor set up, and they had decent prices on quality material, and I believe did quite well. In contrast, there is another dealer I've been consistantly winning mid grade cards for 25.-30 each. He had a few I needed and when I asked the price he told me 150. each. When I produced an invoice from him for last weeks ebay wins at 1/6 of that he told me show prices were considerably higher (I agree, but not more than double), and suggested I bid on them in a few weeks when he puts them on ebay. Idiot, now he'll pay shipping both ways and ebay fees, and alienate a customer and his friends while he is attempting to start a new business. There was a fair amount of this going on.
For me the National has become more of a social event than a buying oppurtunity. When I was a kid in the mid '70's the big show was in Anaheim (it became the national a few years later, it was the first convention, starting in '69) and if you had money left on Sunday you had to find a deal, because it was going to be a long winter without cards. Now it's not big deal if you don't buy- dealers price much higher than Mastro prices, hoping for that one big killing, and I don't have to buy anything because ebay never closes.
The lack of success in this show wasn't due to venue, it was due to changing ways of collecting.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
It amazes me how so many dealers trek all the way across the country for this and other shows. But they sure seem to have a love of the hobby (and/or business). More power to them. In looking back, I should have spoken up sooner before the show so that I could have met a few people from the boards so as to put a face with the name. For sure next time.
Regards
Gary
I did note that of those dealers selling graded cards, 99 percent seemed to be PSA. I think the only SGC I saw was at BMWs table; some dealers had a smattering of GAI. The PSA booth was really busy with a lot of submissions. A rep told me that they had half of their grading force at the show. I was a little disappointed in the booth inasmuch I would have liked to talk with someone about the ins and out of the grading process; everyone working there seemed to be of the rank and file.
All in all, I am glad I went. In my opinion, it would be a shame to lose shows like these. To me, there is nothing like being surrounded by sports cards and others who love them. It also brought back memories for me of my first National, in S.F. in the 80s, when I went with my grandparents who got me in the hobby and who are now no longer with me. I like to think my grandfather was with me yesterday smiling down on me and all my purchases...
I agree with the thoughts about the pre-war stuff, a lot of it there to be had.
I went for two days and would do it again.
Your experiences, perceptions and accounts are much appreciated. It's almost like I was there.
Just like the market has its corrections, it seems the same has hit our hobby.
I'm optimistic. The modern market which I support and like is trying to move in the right direction and the vintage which I have an affection for seems very strong.
I look at some of the "boom" years as a spike or anomaly in the cycle that may happen from time to time.
The next few years will be interesting...
Let's hope Topps and UD have something to smile about?
mike
<< <i>The hobby took some bashing in the LA Times, talking about before there were 100,000 at the 92 Anaheim show, and only 30,000 expected for this show. ComicCon gets over 100,000 each year.
I agree with the thoughts about the pre-war stuff, a lot of it there to be had.
I went for two days and would do it again. >>
re: the L.A. Times article, a sample quote:
"Some collectors say the card and memorabilia industry is trying to manufacture scarcity."
not a very flattering statement
also, no mention of PSA or CU anywhere....i thot there would be some sort of reference to 3rd party grading as a transition in the marketplace, but no, only gloom and doom about how the rise and fall of the market killed speculators
dumba$$es....thanks for the great promotion
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
<< <i>I think that one of the main problems was that the admission price ($17.50 at the door) was exorbitant and parking was $9.00. >>
You probably hit the nail on the head. Shows with admission fees are doomed to begin with.
Looking for alot of crap.
Spinning Their Wheels
Baseball card market has gone flat since the glory days of 1991
By Greg Johnson
Times Staff Writer
July 29, 2006
David Rima sat cross-legged on the concrete floor of the Anaheim Convention Center this week, gazing at a dozen century-old baseball trading cards. The corporate headhunter had just spent about $300 to augment his collection of the tiny cards that were distributed long ago by tobacco companies, and he still had more money to spend.
"They're so beautiful, so fascinating," Rima said.
No matter, he conceded, that it is virtually impossible for "a working man" to snare all 700 cards in the 1909 set that is best known for the mint-condition Honus Wagner card that in 2001 sold for $1.25 million. That card is on display at the National Sports Collectors Convention in Anaheim, the biggest collectors show of the season, which runs through Sunday.
This year's show is expected to draw about 35,000 visitors, a stark contrast to the 1991 event that was held in Anaheim at the height of a sports card collecting frenzy. More than 100,000 treasure seekers in 1991 jammed the convention center, forcing a harried fire marshal to repeatedly close the show doors.
The sports memorabilia industry continues to suffer from the glut of new baseball cards that entered the market and overwhelmed many longtime collectors who simply stopped collecting. And the industry that is synonymous with bubble gum suffered a classic speculative bubble that burst, leaving many hobbyists saddled with cartons of essentially worthless cards.
"There was a fascination with sports trading cards that was fueled by the belief that you could get rich quick," said Tracy Hackler, an associate publisher with Dallas-based Beckett Media, which publishes sports collectibles magazines.
During the 1991 Anaheim show, thousands of youngsters scrambled to grab free promotional cards being distributed by manufacturers. "They'd get 10 of their friends to stand in line and collect 10 bags," said Jeff Rosenberg, president of Houston-based Tristar Productions, which produces sports collectible shows and authenticates memorabilia. "Then they turned around and sold them to collectors inside the show who were paying hundreds of dollars."
Although there are trading cards for other sports — football, basketball, hockey and tennis — baseball cards have long dominated sales. In 1991, the wholesale value of all new sports trading cards soared to a record $1.2 billion; last year sales fell to $250 million, according to Card Trade, an Iola, Wisc.-based trade magazine. The card glut can be tied to a 1981 court decision that stripped Topps Co. of its exclusive contract to produce baseball cards. Donruss, Fleet, Upper Deck and other rivals quickly issued their own baseball cards.
By the late 1980s, many collectors had embraced a risky strategy. Rather than buying cards of proven players, they spent freely on cases of cards to find rookie cards for promising newcomers, hoping that their value would skyrocket if the players enjoyed successful careers.
Bo Jackson's 1987 rookie cards by Fleer and Donruss sold for $15 to $20 in 1991, according to Card Trade magazine, but his cards plummeted in value after a severe hip injury forced him to retire. Today, they sell for about $1. Todd Van Poppel, touted as a pitching phenom when he was drafted out of high school by the Oakland A's, saw his Upper Deck rookie cards sell for $3.50 in 1991. Van Poppel's career fizzled and his rookie card now sells for less than a dime, according to Card Trade.
Card companies also fed the trading card frenzy by introducing multiple 700-card sets of the same baseball players. "A lot of companies felt like they'd struck gold in 1991," said Don Williams, public relations manager for Carlsbad-based The Upper Deck Inc. "They were trying to get the fast buck by continually putting product out there, which got the marketplace out of alignment."
The industry still is trying to recover from the burst bubble. Last year, Fleer was forced to sell its assets to Upper Deck. And venerable Topps on Friday agreed to nominate dissident shareholders — some of them former card collectors frustrated by the company's business strategy — to its board of directors.
To try to revive interest, players and sports leagues are reducing the number of licensed manufacturers and product lines sold. Topps and Upper Deck are now the only card companies licensed by Major League Baseball, and Upper Deck is the only licensed hockey card distributor.
Despite the widespread slump in sports collectibles, some older and scarcer items continue to increase in value. The 1909 Wagner card that sold for $1.25 million in 2001, for example, last sold in 1996 for $640,000. In December, the bat Babe Ruth used to hit the first home run in Yankee Stadium sold for $1.256 million, the most ever paid for a baseball bat.
Some collectors say the card and memorabilia industry is trying to manufacture scarcity.
Older memorabilia, critics say, is scarce by its very nature. But there's no way to tell the long-term value of "game-used" jerseys, bats, balls and other gear that's being pushed into the market by active players.
The industry also is struggling to coexist with the Internet, where shady operators compete with established dealers and use TV commercials to lure youngsters who've grown up with digital toys and seem flummoxed by the thought of playing with pieces of cardboard.
Many existing collectors are "increasingly disenchanted with the modern game, what with the steroids, the price of tickets and the whole bureaucracy it's turned into," said Michael Hefner, president of Lelands, a Seaford, N.Y.-based company that in 2005 auctioned off $15 million in sports memorabilia. "They want to get back to a simpler time."
Still, at the Anaheim show it was clear that some athletes continue to have a magnetic appeal.
Alan Shih, a Corona-based doctor, paid nearly $300 Wednesday for a pair of autographs from former USC football stars Reggie Bush and Matt Leinart. Shih doesn't view the autographs as an investment. "It's simply nostalgia," he said. "It's something for me to hold onto."
But the sports memorabilia industry could find it difficult to control supply and demand, said Robert Shiller, a Yale economics professor who published "Irrational Exuberance," a book that took its name from the phrase made famous by former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan.
"Alan Greenspan and, now, Ben Bernanke have been charged with managing the scarcity of our currency," Shiller said, "and some people are pessimistic about their ability to do even that."
If the powerful Fed chairman can't control the economy, the concept of a baseball card price bubble shouldn't surprise anyone. "Fundamental value is so intangible in this industry and speculative bubbles are especially likely," Shiller said.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Every day should have been a kids free day. The cost for a dad and two kids to attend would be over $60.
Other hobbies are doing extremely well (Comic Con, Coins). The strength of the leagues isn't what it once was, but you'd think the state of the hobby would be healthier than it is today.
AJ Adande wasn't there letting people play w/ his balls? I heard he was busted trying to scalp press passes in the lobby?
Amazing!
Julen
RIP GURU
When i used to be a dealer i would rather have 2,000 people show up and make 10,000
then have 20,000 show up and only make 1,000
So before you bash and kill a show because of attendance ask the dealers what they thought and how well they made out.
I know i made a lot of dealers happy they didn't bring all that heavy wax for nothing.
NASCC will mail ballots to all dealers who participated at the National. Anaheim being off the books is someone's rumour who hopes this will be so. The just passed Anaheim show was a success and I found most dealers very happy with it. Cleveland is not a good National and has not been for years. A National in Houston with roaches big as birds is definitely off the book for me, time to take my 1 in 5 vacation. Regarding Ebay shmeebay....
if ya'll want to buy PSA 8's with fuzzy corners, dings, bubbles,
indentations ya can't see in a scan, that card is for you but don't try to resell that card to me. The future will see less and less nice
material offered on ebay. Lots of collectors have been disappointed
with purchases on ebay - there's something to be said to selectively pick up the centered high end 8 or even 9, maybe a nice 7 over
a doggy one on ebay which can't be returned. And yes, an 8 is
not always an 8....grading is a matter of opinion. Buy the card not the grade.
Again, my opinion.
Furthermore, how do you see things falling into place after '07? I assume Chicago is still the venue for '08, but then what? What other venues are you hearing? I know you know (or at least have a pretty good idea which way the wind is blowing).....
Eyebone
<< <i>The future will see less and less nice less nice material offered on ebay >>
that's a bold statement. and why do you think this is the case?
if it is the case, i would gather that these "nice items" would go straight to mastro, sothebys, leland et al before it goes to a card show.
I took a skip this year. I am sure that if I setup at Anaheim I would have had a very successful show. I made a decision not to travel to Anaheim and took that into consideration in my business plan this year, so I already made up profits I would have made there, as well as inventory purchases, etc.
If I would fly to Anaheim with my full compliment of inventory, I would have to ship alot of it. I wish there was an easy, not too expensive way to get inventory cross-country. No offense to the west coast collectors, but there is no way on earth I am driving 66 hours round trip to anywhere to do anything. So I got extra rounds of golf in last week.
I know alot of dealers who skipped this year or took one booth instead of 2 or more. Next year in Cleveland I am su rethere will be alot of west coast dealers in the same boat.
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
Let's be realistic here...
Whenever someone doesn't make a show, they have to come up with some kind of excuse...don't they?
If a guy has good stuff and could make money, he would fly in from Saigon!
I closed out 1961 Fleer baseball, 1964 Philadelphia Gum football (Rams team set) and 1965 Topps Embossed, and fell two cards short of finishing off my ultimate goal - 1957 Topps. I'm down to the Wes Covington and Bobby Richardson - never even saw a Covington, and all the guys with Richardsons wanted way more than the condition dictated. Deals were to be had if you did some looking, and asked for them. I did very well with Roger Neufeldt, Bill Henderson, Kevin Savage, Dave and Adam's Card World (their singles table had some amazing 90% off deals!) and Jack's Cards. Waited in line at the Topps booth all four days I was there so I could pick up that day's Allen & Ginter promos. Just missing the Leinert and White cards - anyone pick up extras? Bought a box of '06 Topps Series 2 to open for the A&G promos and pulled the rare Soler RC1 card - gonna flip that on the 'Bay and use the dough towards picking up one of the 1952 high number HOF Dodgers I need.
Did major damage to these lists: 1969 and 1970 Topps football and 1970-73 Topps baseball. Picked up a '52 Topps #1 Pafko for $100. Also got a great deal on a 1957 Topps Bazooka 3/4 checklist. Picked up some key tough cards for my 1952 Bowman large and small Rams sets.
All in all, I had a great time. Saw some great cards. Bought some great cards. I really hope the National comes back to Anaheim as scheduled in '09. We may not have as many people out here, but from the indications I got, the dealers that came out weren't disappointed.
Geordie
p.s. - Maraya - what lower end cards did you bring out?
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i> Houston ... it is inappropriate to bash it as a possible future site ...Ron >>
You're got to be kidding!
Does Texas even have electricity and indoor plumbing yet?
Maybe in the governor's mansion ( a double-wide trailer ), but I doubt anywhere else ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>
<< <i> Houston ... it is inappropriate to bash it as a possible future site ...Ron >>
You're got to be kidding!
Does Texas even have electricity and indoor plumbing yet?
Maybe in the governor's mansion ( a double-wide trailer ), but I doubt anywhere else ...
Shoot Wolfie
We even have "town bread!"
all inventory. I was concerned that Anaheim might not work out
but to my surprise it has. Thus I'm voting for Anaheim in 09 (and a
batch of other dealers I know are planning to do the same)
<< <i>Thus I'm voting for Anaheim in 09 (and a batch of other dealers I know are planning to do the same) >>
Thanks for that!! Us left coasters need a major card show now & again.
Maraya - what lower end stuff did you bring to the show?
Geordie
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
not too many cities offer venues of the size required to host a National. Cleveland is for certain in 07, then Chicago, then perhaps
either Anaheim or Houston, depending upon dealer voting. NASCC had looked at other CA option such as San Francisco which really
does not offer any halls large enough (Cow Palace?? never, Ft. Mason? no parking - Concourse - not big enough and no parking,
parking there is $15 for a van/car - trailers double) San Diego was
also looked at but a no go, some other cities were mentioned but would not work, not big enough or other reasons.
City of Industry. Bringing a few high end ones too; however, the
baseball collector base in really no longer visiting F&S like they used
to. What's there is mostly hot wheels, Star Wars type toys, CD's,
some new wax, supplies etc.
However, I've never heard as much b**ching about a show location as this one, and I've been at the last 3. All table holders get a vote, but I get the distinct impression some votes count more than others. I talked to a few dozen of the larger dealers and they said they were the same or lower in sales, but the costs were much higher. And there were a fair amount of empty tables, especially starting on Saturday.
Overall the National is a good time to get together with old friends, and make contacts for deals later in the year, but overall can't compare to ebay and catalog auctions. I don't think the venue is going to change that fact significantly.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
It was in Houston, I believe, many years ago? And one of the complaints had to do with the quality of stuff coming into the show - they felt it wasn't up to other places it was held.
And don't worry, we'll be ready! Maybe even have a ceement pond or two?
<< <i>It was at the George R. Brown Convention Center. All in all, I thought that one was a pretty good success as I was living outside of Houston at the time....... >>
I went to a tristar show there last year - I stayed at the hotel such that you can walk across a ramp and don't even have to go outside!
Show was slow but I liked it - the dealers were very friendly and there was an ok array of stuff to look at.
mike
And I'm speaking of Novi Michigan at the Rock Financial Showplace. Brand new building. Plenty of hotels in the surrounding area. We just hosted the All Star Game and Superbowl so it can't be all that bad here in the Big D
Would be a change from the Cleveland/Chicago circuit.
Just my two cents.