Options
PCGS Gold Dollar arrived today - Got Error Questions
Cladiator
Posts: 18,233 ✭✭✭✭✭
Picked this tiny coin up a short while back, it's going to be a gift to a "non-collector". It just arrived in the mail today and when I looked at the coin I was pleased, intrigued and puzzled. The coin has a good look to it with nice luster. Being a half dime collector I'm all about die state stuff so when I saw the die cracks coming from multiple obverse stars I was unexpectedly and happily surprised.
Now there are three issues on the reverse that I'd like some help on...
First, note the red crap on the reverse of the coin. Particularly around the LL in DOLLAR, the 185 in the date and the E in UNITED. What is this stuff? I've had coins with gobs of PVC that look very similar but they have always been green. I've never seen red goo.
Second, note the area of NIT in UNITED and the extreme weakness it features. The letters are barely even recognizable. The area in question also extends under TED ST of UNITED STATES as seen in the extreme weakness along the top left part of the wreath. My first instinct when viewing this with the naked eye was a cud but I don't think that's what it is. There are no clearly defined edges of the area that a cud would have from the die brakes that cause cuds. The area just "melts" into it's surrounding areas. Also, there is no weak strike issues on the corresponding spot of the obverse of the coin that there should be if it were a cud. Could this be a strike through, lamination, other?
Lastly, is doubling common on these coins? The coin has some pretty heavy doubling in some areas and it's pretty neat if you ask me. It's noticeable on most all details of the coin when inspected under a loupe but it's easily recognizable with zero magnification at the ER of AMERICA, the E in particular.
Now there are three issues on the reverse that I'd like some help on...
First, note the red crap on the reverse of the coin. Particularly around the LL in DOLLAR, the 185 in the date and the E in UNITED. What is this stuff? I've had coins with gobs of PVC that look very similar but they have always been green. I've never seen red goo.
Second, note the area of NIT in UNITED and the extreme weakness it features. The letters are barely even recognizable. The area in question also extends under TED ST of UNITED STATES as seen in the extreme weakness along the top left part of the wreath. My first instinct when viewing this with the naked eye was a cud but I don't think that's what it is. There are no clearly defined edges of the area that a cud would have from the die brakes that cause cuds. The area just "melts" into it's surrounding areas. Also, there is no weak strike issues on the corresponding spot of the obverse of the coin that there should be if it were a cud. Could this be a strike through, lamination, other?
Lastly, is doubling common on these coins? The coin has some pretty heavy doubling in some areas and it's pretty neat if you ask me. It's noticeable on most all details of the coin when inspected under a loupe but it's easily recognizable with zero magnification at the ER of AMERICA, the E in particular.
0
Comments
Grade would probably be AU-53.
Dennis
Like VOC Numismatics on facebook
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>cast counterfiet is my first thought. >>
Mee too--it has that "mushy" look to it.
<< <i>Cool die clash. >>
I agree.
<< <i> Just to ease the minds of those saying it's a counterfeit I've added another pic of the coin.
I don't see much "to ease the minds" here--just try to find your rights, protection and recourse under the so-called PCGS guarantee of authenticity.
If you don't end-up asking yourself "Where's Waldo?", please help us all by explaining your entitlements in the unlikely event the coin should prove to be bogus.
In my "gold novice" mind I can clearly see that the area with weak strike on the reverse is not due to the coin being counterfeit but due to something that went wrong when the coin was struck. Struck through something, possibly something liquid seems to be the most likely culprit.
I honestly don't see a single thing on this coin that would point toward it being counterfeit. Enlighten me.
<<Mee too--it has that "mushy" look to it. >>
Cast coins don't have luster because they weren't pressed in a coining press. The squeezing produces metal flow lines which we see as luster.
This coin has plenty of luster, therefore it cannot be a cast coin.
PC
<< <i>Cast coins don't have luster because they weren't pressed in a coining press. The squeezing produces metal flow lines which we see as luster. >>
What a beautifully succinct way of saying it!
<< <i>Cast coins don't have luster because they weren't pressed in a coining press. The squeezing produces metal flow lines which we see as luster. >>
A cast coin can have flow lines just like the struck coin it was molded after.........
As far as pointing out what looks fake about it is the things you mentioned in your original post. After seeing 100's of fake $1 coins over the years you get leery of them ALL.
<< <i>I don't see much "to ease the minds" here--just try to find your rights, protection and recourse under the so-called PCGS guarantee of authenticity.
If you don't end-up asking yourself "Where's Waldo?", please help us all by explaining your entitlements in the unlikely event the coin should prove to be bogus. >>
Oh, Jeez...
Nice affordable sample of a decent coin. I like all the die "complications". I have seen other coins with that reddish sort of waxy substance - I wonder if at one point it was secured with wax or otherwise played with, where most came off but left a little residual in the tight placed.
The mushy lettering looks like, as was mentioned before, a strike-through.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Nice affordable sample of a decent coin. I like all the die "complications". I have seen other coins with that reddish sort of waxy substance - I wonder if at one point it was secured with wax or otherwise played with, where most came off but left a little residual in the tight placed. >>
I have seen residue left over from the mold- another reason I questioned the authenticity of the coin before it was shown in a PCGS slab- not that that proves it real but that the buyer has some protection.
<< <i>Geez,as PCGS doesn't know their stuff when it comes to counterfiets. I wonder if they've ever even slabbed a counterfiet? >>
Actually, Hayden they did!PCGS use to slab the micro O 96-O, 00-O, & 02-O Morgans until they found out they were all counterfeit.
<< <i>[not that that proves it real but that the buyer has some protection. >>
Smoe protection? What are your rights, protection and recourse under the PCGS guarantee of authenticity.
Read it and weep. If you don't end-up asking yourself "Where's Waldo?", please help us all by explaining your entitlements in the unlikely event a PCGS coin should prove to be bogus.
<< <i>
<< <i>Geez,as PCGS doesn't know their stuff when it comes to counterfiets. I wonder if they've ever even slabbed a counterfiet? >>
Actually, Hayden they did!PCGS use to slab the micro O 96-O, 00-O, & 02-O Morgans until they found out they were all counterfeit. >>
Thanks John,I totaly forgot about that.
<< <i>A quick search of coins currently for sale on eBay has located two other 1854 T1 Gold $'s that have the same obverse die as my coin. Note the same die cracks at the stars. Would multiple examples of a die and die state point towards an authentic coin? >>
No. Most counterfeits are made from transfer dies using a real coin as a model to produce the die. Any defects (including die cracks, bag marks, heavy die polish, etc) are transfered to the copy die.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>A quick search of coins currently for sale on eBay has located two other 1854 T1 Gold $'s that have the same obverse die as my coin. Note the same die cracks at the stars. Would multiple examples of a die and die state point towards an authentic coin? >>
No. Most counterfeits are made from transfer dies using a real coin as a model to produce the die. Any defects (including die cracks, bag marks, heavy die polish, etc) are transfered to the copy die. >>
Ok cool. Fair enough explanation. I've emailed photos to an expert in the field and will update when he gives his opinion.
<< <i>
<< <i>Geez,as PCGS doesn't know their stuff when it comes to counterfiets. I wonder if they've ever even slabbed a counterfiet? >>
Actually, Hayden they did!PCGS use to slab the micro O 96-O, 00-O, & 02-O Morgans until they found out they were all counterfeit. >>
And, If I remember correctly, PCGS offered fair market value for the return of those coins. Some, but not all, decided to keep them as "error" coins.
I found the article published by PCGS here.
It states:
<< <i>PCGS has certified 95 of the contemporary counterfeit "Micro O" Morgan dollars over the years: 26 of the 1896-O; 31 1900-O; and 38 1902-O specimens.
"We will reimburse the owners of PCGS-graded examples of these contemporary counterfeits for the current market value of the coin(s) under the terms of the PCGS Grading Guarantee," said David Hall, PCGS President and Founder. "Owners of PCGS-certified 'Micro O' Morgan dollars can contact PCGS Customer Service at (800) 447-8848." >>
which to me equates to a pretty good authenticity quarantee.
The name is LEE!
reverse".