How can a numismatic researcher be sure of emission sequences if a die might have been lapped in-bet

Longacre

The new Whitman book on early gold and die states has me thinking. I am sure this is probably covered in the book, but because I am an impatient fellow, I will see if anyone knows. For those who study die states and determine emission sequences for particular dies, how is it possible to determine, with any degree of certainty, the sequences if the dies were lapped at a point in time? What evidence is there that a die is lapped (documentary evidence)? For example, do the mint records document when a particular die is lapped? Is there an easy way to determine the sequence, or does a lapping represent a new sequence in the coin's production (similar to a new die being used)?

slumlord98

On early coinage, the edge die is a key element in determining E/S. But for determining if a die was lapped, you need to have enough specimens in hand to determine that. The mint never recorded such minor procedures as this; sometimes they were given a quick dressing to remove die clashes or a minor die crack, and quickly returned to service. Other times they were sent back to the cage and left for more extensive service. A lapped die can be considered a new or different die state, but isn't considered a break or change in the emission sequence.

Edit- sorry to take your thread away from the gold context, but I can only answer confidently in regard to half dollars. But the method is the same.

MrEureka

Lapping causes a loss of die detail in general - look for things like smaller stars, pools of PL luster in the die recesses, and shorter dentils - but it can also erase things like clash marks and die breaks. Therefore, a coin with a die break may actually be from an earlier state of a die than another coin that doesn't show the break. But when you compare enough coins and look at enough die markers, you can almost always figure out which came first.

slumlord98

<< <i>Lapping causes a loss of die detail in general >>



Depends on the severity of the lapping. My only experience is with half dollars, and within the series, there are examples of where lapped dies bring out more detail. Some halves have no central detail on early die states, but with progressive lappings, more detail is struck up. 1822 O.105 is one die marriage that comes to mind. Terminal die state shows all 13 stars with full detail, and superb central detail. Of course, some die marriages, like 1818 O.105 were struck from such severely lapped dies that some stars are almost gone.

seateddime

seek the cause for the lapping and view before and after coins. I should show up.

MrEureka

1822 O.105 is one die marriage that comes to mind. Terminal die state shows all 13 stars with full detail, and superb central detail.

Slumlord - Are the stars smaller on the terminal die state? If so, perhaps the reason for the stars being sharper is that the deepest recesses of the stars (on the die) are no longer as deep as they were before lapping.

Edited to say that if that's the case, it's a case of there being more detail on the coin because there is less detail on the die. Amusing, ain't it?

slumlord98

The cause isn't always to be found. One example from my previous post, 1818 O.105 is struck from a previously used obverse die, and all examples are severely lapped. Someone must have gotten lost in a fog and not followed his progress, as this is the most severely lapped obverse die in the entire series. But no transition coin exists. It may have happened when reverse dies were swapped, and someone wasn't paying attention, or else someone dropped the die, or dropped something on the die to severely damage it, necessitating such a severe lapping.

messydesk

Die cracks and breaks can't be polished away, so they can be used to tie together the emission sequence. If there are no die cracks, I'm not sure how you could connect the dots. Emission sequences are pieced together forensically, with only the only mint documentation being hints as to how often dies were lapped or changed, such as complaints about quality of die steel, strikability of designs, planchet misfeeds causing clashes, "&c."

MrEureka

Die cracks and breaks can't be polished away

Not true. Shallow cracks can be lapped away.

slumlord98

Die cracks were most assuredly lapped away. In the half dollar series, there are instances of later die states not exhibiting cracks found on earlier die state coins. However, if the crack traveled up the shaft of the die, obviously it couldn't be lapped off.

slumlord98

<< <i>Slumlord - Are the stars smaller on the terminal die state? If so, perhaps the reason for the stars being sharper is that the deepest recesses of the stars (on the die) are no longer as deep as they were before lapping. >>



The stars aren't smaller, but I believe you are correct as to the reason. Some 1818 and 1819 halves always have weak detail on the portrait, despite being otherwise well struck. I presume this is because the dies were hubbed too deeply.

If this confuses anyone reading this, think of a flat round piece of playdough as a die. If you push a coin into the p/d, you have just hubbed the die. The coin acted as the hub, and p/d acted as the die. Now imagine that you could harden that hunk of p/d and use it to stamp out "coins" made of a very soft substance. All the detail would be there, and facing in the same direction as on your original coin that was used as a hub. But if you observe the "die" or hunk of p/d, everything is opposite. If you hub your die too deeply by pushing the original coin too deeply into the p/d, even by a little bit, it will be much more difficult to properly strike up new p/d "coins".

Leiana

This is a very interesting thread! Thanks for posing the question, Longacre!

-Amanda

Longacre

<< <i>This is a very interesting thread! Thanks for posing the question, Longacre!

-Amanda >>




Thanks. I wish I knew as much as these guys.

DaveG

Well, if you'd start reading some serious numismatic books instead of those fluffy things you've been reading, you would!

Nysoto

Coins with lettered edges make it possible to determine the emission placement of a die marriage that is not die linked - the only usage of the obv and rev dies is one die marriage. The die set for the edge lettering, however, is linked to other die marriages and edge dies also have die cracks and other deterioration.

With early dimes (and probably other denominations without edge lettering), die deterioration is the primary determinant of the emission order, such as the usual die cracks, clash marks, and metal flow lines, and also die bulges that appear on bust dimes. Lapping is also a determinant for emission, if the lapping is great enough to remove shallow detail (arrow shafts, recut letters). Lapping reduces the relief of a coin, the metal flow is more efficient, and strikes can sometimes show better detail as Slumlord said. Punch deterioration is also used to develop the emission order. Historical evidence such as 16 stars that was later changed to 13. Midyear punch style changes. Bill Subjack determined the multidenominational die emission from the six reverse dies shared by quarter eagles and dimes, gold came first in 5 instances. The edge reeding was of no use in the development of the emission order on dimes.

I have done some emission analysis with draped bust halves, it is interesting and a lot of fun. It is best to use many examples and collaboration with other collectors. The 1806 overdates were struck after several other knobbed six varieties were struck, and I have some evidence from punch differences that a couple of 1806 reverse dies were actually fabricated in 1805, but not used until 1806.

Conder101

<< <i>Not true. Shallow cracks can be lapped away. >>


Yes shallow cracks can be lapped away, but even for shallow cracks such a lapping would be rather extensive and would most likely result in loss, possibly severe loss, of low relief detail.



<< <i>Lapping reduces the relief of a coin, the metal flow is more efficient, and strikes can sometimes show better detail as Slumlord said. >>


Better central and deep relief, but at the expense of the shallow relief details some of which may be polished away completely.

IGWT

Do any of the specialty clubs pool their coins for purposes of studying die states?

ziggy29

<< <i>Do any of the specialty clubs pool their coins for purposes of studying die states? >>

I would imagine some do, as do some specialists in the series.

For example, when I discovered a new variety of seated dime a few months back, I sent it out to Gerry Fortin and he was able to look at that coin along with his example of another variety which used the same obverse. From there it became a bit more clear that his coin, which he thought was a very early die state, wasn't the first die state used with this obverse as my coin had an earlier die state.

slumlord98

<< <i>Do any of the specialty clubs pool their coins for purposes of studying die states? >>



Absolutely! At the BHNC corn roast, there will be quite a bit of this, and after the BHNC open meeting at the ANA on Thursday (everyone is invited, please stop by!), Glenn Peterson leads a whist of die state comparison for 2 years of coinage that is announced in advance.