NOT 1 UPDATE on the National?
gaspipe26
Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭
So whats going on? In past years we would have a dozen threads by now.
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<< <i>So whats going on? In past years we would have a dozen threads by now. >>
Probably many of the people are going out, drinking, eating and hanging out with their friend/fellow collectors out there as opposed to sitting in front of their computer late at night!
I am going over this morning for the day I will try and give an update tonight
Dave
Show seems light in attendance (I've heard not radio advertising, and only saw 1 tv crew yesterday) but every dealer I spoke with said they were doing well in sales. Tables seems less stocked in terms of volume of material (Cleveland looked like a bad swap meet) but there is much less junk than usual.
Other than Norty and Scott Bradshaw I've not seem very much raw material- everything seems to be finding its way into slabs.
Speaking of slabs, PSA's new pack holder is a winner! Unfortunately they are only able to handle standard ('57 and up) initially, but it's a very solid product that holds the pack safely and securely.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Stop by booth 1445 if interested in high grade raw from 1960 to 1975, less 1971 and 1969. Sold out on those years to one collector yesterday. Bought everything I had in those years, entire boxes.
Stump,
If you read this I'll have some low pop 1969 PSA 9's with me. Gemint will be at my booth this morning. Maybe you guys will be interested. Please ask to see them. They will not be on display
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
I am here in Anaheim. I arrived at the show this morning at 10:00am. I didn't buy much but I made a few contacts that can probably help me complete some sets down the road. You didn't miss much IMO.
I met a guy who claimed he auctioned the 1969 Brock 9. He had some nice 9's so I figure he had one helluva submission.
The nicest guy that I met was Bill McAvoy. We had an interesting chat on 1967 Topps variation cards. Great guy, very knowledgeable.
The funniest thing I saw was "Laverne & Shirley" signing autographs. I don't think they said one word to each other.
All in all, it wasn't as good as Chicago or Cleveland. I am heading home tonight on the midnight flight back to Atlanta.
Regards,
Alan
Sorry I missed meeting you at the show. I was at MKW's table most of today. I flew back to NorCal tonight.
Will add my update tomorrow when I'm better rested.
Went Saturday and spent about 4 hours at the show. I did not buy a single graded card but did pick up some raw cards to finish my sets. My 58 set is now complete as I picked up a nice centered Mantle with deep orange color for 600 bucks. It will probably 7 if I sent it in but for now it will reside in my raw set.
There did not seem to be alot of high grade raw as I think it is harder to find. I am at a point with my raw sets to just finish then in Ex-Mt to NM. It seems there is more and more modern at these big shows. every now and then some new stuff hits the market but I still think its cheaper on ebay to snipe even if you only win 5% of the time It seems you can do better that way.
I saw alot of specialty booths like Jerseys Autographs and such that I usualy walk right by. I did stop by the PSA booth and they fixed 5 of my White letter 8's that I have been unable to put in my master registry set. They kept loading as Yellow so hopefully when I get home they will be added to my master set. I did bring a Clendenon 9 with me (Houston version) that says Expos on the label but it broke on the flight. I am not sure if I will get a downgrade because of this. It lokks ok but you never know. They were not able to fix my C.L. card 582. It loads as a white circle but is the Red circle variation. They said they were unsure what was wrong. I will most likely email a scan and see if it is some kind of data problem inside PSA's system.
Saw alot of kids running around and the dealers I talked to said they were doing ok. I usually spend 5-8K when I am ther but only was able to blow 2k this time aroung. Tried to find a Kaline rookie in 8 but was not able to locate one. Almost bout a 52 Jackie in 6 but decided against it.
Anyway all in all in was kind of boring. I may stay away from the nationals for a couple years. Maybe there will be a influx in material but I doubt it.
Treetop
Went to the show before you posted. Sorry I miised you on the 69 low pops. I would have liked to have seen them. I must haved walked right by your table without noticing them.
DJJ
I went back to my '69 set and checked #582 CL. I have a black circle. I don't see that variation listed. I might be missing something. Maybe I am not looking in the right area for the circle. Can you post a pic of the back of the card?
"I can't really discount these because the're pretty tough to find"
1) 1914 Cracker Jack commons
2) Vintage Tobacco commons
3) 1966 Topps commons in VG/EX condition.
If you guessed "3" ... you're right!
I am working on completing a collector grade set of 1966's (that I started as a kid) where I really dont give a flip about condition. No...I didn't laugh out loud at him but I probably rolled my eyes. He was holding firm on a buck fifty for low number commons that were roughly 50 cents everywhere else.
Regards,
Alan
Alan,
Don't recall meeting you or discussing the Block. Curious as to who was saying they were the seller.
Stump,
I never put the 9's out, But did end up selling the McDowell to a Friend.
Here's what I have and you can email me at jjtmmw@aol.com if interested.
#187 Wagner
#189 Red Sox Rookies
#207 Face
#46 Peterson
#202 Wilson
#508 Drabowsky
#391 Culp
#248 Priddy
#49 Alyea
#230 Staub
#232 Ricketts
#258 Hernandez
#326 Sutherland
#277 Hendricks
#271 Stahl
#254 Schultz
Thanks,
Mark
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
Auctions seem to be the only way cards are moving these days which is pretty unbelievable when you have to pay 20% over whatever jacked up price you win the auction at. Plus, who knows what kind of shill bidding is going on. Identities aren't made public. Only Mastro et al. know who is after what and it's not hard to see if you have a chaser on hand. Even if an auctioneer wins his own auction via a shill, it only raises the market on a specific issue. It doesn't cost the auctioneer any money. He does lose a little in terms of space in his catalog, but I think these guys can afford it.
Also, I'd be very surprised if GAI and SGC cards were selling at all. With nothing crossing over, you might as well price the cards a grade less. The registry has killed GAI and SGC. Before, you'd consider a card for its merits. Now, it's all slab hunting. You could have an SGC 92 that should be a PSA 10, but the best you're going to do is a PSA 8. Nobody is interested in spending large amounts of money to see their GPAs stand still or fall.
I don't consider the management at PSA to be anywhere near brilliant, but the registry has really changed the hobby. They got that one right and they are reaping the rewards. Dealers have tried to get around PSA, but GAI and SGC's half grade bump has proved to mean nothing. Plus, GAI and SGC are ridiculously lenient when it comes to centering. With no qualifiers, their grades are complete nonsense. PSA, at least, adheres to some formula on centering. Of course, it changes with the submitter and the graders, but there's some rationale.
Overall, the National is an outdated concept and I wouldn't be surprised to see it vanish at some point. It's turned into a museum trip. Nobody can afford the cards and nothing new is being presented. If you want Laverne and Shirley autographs, then it's a great outing.
The hobby has gone through quite a few changes over the past ten years. Some of the changes have been positive and some have been negative. Other changes are hard to classify. Grading has been good in terms of authentifying cards, but I don't think any grading company has gotten it right yet. The Registry is the biggest change. Did you ever think 1969 commons in high grade condition would be worth the same as mid-grade 1950 Mays, Aarons and Clementes?
The internet has changed buying cards too. Ebay is now the legitimate SMR. All pricing guides have no basis other than what the guy who writes the prices feels like printing.
In closing, this is a transitional period for the hobby. I don't think it will clearly take shape for another few years. You have dealers forced to compete for cards with hobbyists because new stock isn't flowing in. Also, set builders are going at it with big dollars on cards with relatively high pops to meet GPAs. This will stop. Card population is starting to really be a key factor and Regionals and obscure issues look to gain the most. And, grading costs are only going in one direction. It's not economically feasible to send in a ton of cards unless they can return the cost. I believe certain cards, i.e. a 1961 Bob Gibson Topps in a PSA 5, will command more out of the holder than in. I don't know what a 1961 Gibson PSA 5 goes for, but I know it's peanuts. Don't be surprised to see a new area of collectors emerge who chase HOFers in good condition and keep their cards out of slabs. I wouldn't mind having Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Sandy Koufax and Roberto Clemente in every year possible sitting in plastic sleeves. It used to be about acquiring your heroes and I think there's still allure to that even if the edges aren't perfect or there's some slight wear. It's not an investment type of approach, rather, it's a enjoyment type of approach and I think that's is what has been lost over the last few years.
If you want to argue the above, do so in an intelligent manner. I'm sure there will be difference is opinion, but don't base overviews on one card you bought at a discount or something you heard from a friend's friend. I've been on the inside of the hobby for a number of years. I'm trying to make educated statements. I'm not here to fight. It would be nice to have an intelligent debate. That's been missing on this forum for three or four years.
Best,
JLC
"I have one word for you, Ben... Spastics. Got it? Good. Enough said."
1959 Home Run Derby Aaron
1960 Lake to Lake Aaron
1954 Spic & Span Aaron
1966 Kahn's Aaron
1969 Kahn's Aaron
1968 Kahn's Aaron
1969 Sports Illustraded Poster Aaron
1972 Milton Bradley Aaron
1961, 62 Post Cereal Aaron
1964 Venezulean #11 Aaron Ldr Card
1966 Venezulean Yaz Ldr card
1962 Baseball Buck Yaz
196X Atlantic Oil Aaron
I probably picked up a few more but that is all I can remember for now. I bought about 700-800 raw cards that should grade pretty well. Unfortunately, I bought from dealer that are all at the Fort. I was hoping for a better regional turnout. All in all I would rate this National a C+ or B-. I had to work really hard to find the cards. Last year in Chicago was much better.
Doug
Eric McNair and Rube Walberg autograph cuts (for my Philadelphia Athletics 30s collection)
A ton of cards for my raw 72 set; got almost all the high numbers I needed
A handful of graded 71s for my registry set
Unopened boxes of 79 and 80 Topps baseball
Unopened 5th series 72 Topps pack; question is whether to open this one
75 Topps pack
77 Topps pack
4 or 5 78 Topps packs
Again, I had a lot of fun and was able to meet a few dealers I have purchased from over the Internet and such. Probably spent way too much but it was a lot of fun! I also had my picture taken next to the PSA 8 Wagner; kind of surprised they let you do that and there really was not any security around it. Again, maybe I am in the minority, but I had a blast.
Returned tonight after spending Wednesday night, and all day Thursday and Friday there.
The pickings were fairly slim compared to the recent Midwestern shows.
Mainly because the location made it too expensive for many of the regular dealers to transport their entire inventory.
Still, after pounding the pavement and looking at thousands upon thousands of cards at dozens of tables
for hours on end I managed to pick up nearly 100 raw cards that will upgrade my raw sets or be submitted for grading.
Also picked up a great complete set at a bargain price.
It was a lot of work, but very enjoyable at the same time.
It takes about a year for me to find that many nice cards on eBay so it was well worth the effort.
Actually, just hanging out with old friends
and meeting new ones made the whole experience more than worthwhile.
Most of these guys I only get a chance to talk with at the National every year.
Plus, PSA put on a free Set Registry Luncheon with fantastic food
where we got to ask Joe Orlando questions and got to hear a fun speech from Davalillo.
Woundn't miss a National for the world.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
I enjoyed the show overall, however did not do much buying. I found that most dealers brought very little if any graded commons from the 60's. I did not see any graded Golf cards (1981 - 1982 Donruss). I did make some progress on my raw sets. Plenty of raw cards available in all years and all grades. Many dealers were pricing high end raw as if it was already graded. Tables were not very crowded so it was easy to see everything. Many dealers seemed uninterested in speding time with potential buyers, they appeared to be more involved with other dealers. I saw a lot of dealer to dealer trades and sales happening.
I did not spend much time in the corporate area. Although it was cool to see the PSA 8 Wagner card and the 1958 Topps Baseball highest graded complete set....
The Registry luncheon was very good. Jim Crandell had a nice speach as the guest speaker, the food was good and I met a few of the people from these boards.
I would like to attend again next year... any idea where it will be held?
Collecting all cards - Gus Zernial
Post Cereal both raw and PSA Graded (1961-1963)
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
Interesting post - I think I only agree with your assessments of the other grading companies. SGC will always be perceived as #2 (not that that hurts Hertz) and GAI is so hopelessly tarnishing their own reputation that they'll never catch up.
However, I don't think the concept of the Nat'l is dead by any means. You have to remember that we are the 1%ers - many many many card collectors are not nearly as obsessive as we are, and they look forward to the material that comes out at a National. There are also many many many card collectors who do not buy through ebay; eschewing the faith required in sending money across the country to somebody who may not even exist in the hopes that they'll get something back that somehow resembles the picture in the auction. I've talked to casual collectors who wouldn't think of offering money for a card they haven't held in their hands, even if it's graded.
I don't believe card show prices are terribly inflated; I think prices realized on ebay are deflated because of the blind faith angle. When assessing collection costs from ebay, how many people factor in all the money spent on cards that didn't measure up but couldn't, for one reason or another, be returned?
I also don't believe this: "Even if an auctioneer wins his own auction via a shill, it only raises the market on a specific issue." Savvy collectors know when an item has closed for stupid money. As an example, I recently won a Mastro card for stupid money - I stupidly outbid myself by making a mistake on the bidding process and, of course, I won the card at roughly $2300; with the vig it came to close to $2800. It should have been around 1800 or 1900. A month later, the same grade card showed up on ebay, with a rave about how this card had sold recently in Mastro for $2800. Needless to say, it ended up just under $1800.
How many of us see auctions and hold our breath until it's over, hoping that other collectors don't see it? There is a gambling element to ebay that a lot of collectors aren't comfortable with. Card shows serve a very useful purpose, and the Nat'l is the cream of the crop.
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
I saw people in the autograph lines with Heisman helmets signed by what looked to be at least 25 Heisman winners. There is nowhere but at a major show that they can realistically hope to add to the helmet (and this show had 6 Heisman winners that I can think of off the top of my head - Bush, Leinart, Sanders, Allen, White, and Cappelletti). Similar things hold true for collectors of lots of other themed autographs - Rookies of the Year, MVPs, Cy Young winners, batting title winners, no-hit pitchers, etc.
For modern card collectors, the VIP giveaways, manufacturer booths, and wrapper redemptions can be the highlight of their year. I talked to someone today who pulled a Chris Paul autograph from an Upper Deck redemption pack, and I heard about Pujols, Gretzky, Jordan (by a 10 year old), and Roethlisberger also being pulled.
The National is also the best place to find oddball items that may not get listed on eBay because the market is so thin for them that one bidder on vacation may mean the difference between a successful or unsuccessful auction, as well as low-end items that shipping costs make it impractical to sell online (everything from raw '70s commons to junk wax to bobbleheads/figurines).
You don't go to the National to buy things that you can find cheaper regularly on eBay - you go to buy things you like but wouldn't or can't buy on eBay, as well as for making contacts and friends and taking advantage of the freebies.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
Minus the stupid comment above mine----I had my "eyes" out at the show looking for some specific cards for me as i was not able to make the trip. His opinion was first griping to me about the fee to get in and parking. He heard this all day long friday and saturday walking around the tables. He even heard a couple of big time dealers talking about it, and they were not happy and were going to cut out early sunday.
Price wise he said there were very few deals to be had. After selling a few of his H/E vintage 9's baseball cards that he brought with him (mostly Dodgers), he left with more money than he came in with. He said the Chicago show was 10 times better than this fiasco.
On the 54' Bowman baseball cards i had him look for i pretty much paid top dollar for quality ungraded commons ( he thought a couple commons could 9). He stated several of the top dealers were buying the 9's he had and didn't have much interest in his 8's.
Looks like my next show i will be attending is in the Windy City...
<< <i>Norty did mention he missed you leading the charge at the opening bell!
Show seems light in attendance (I've heard not radio advertising, and only saw 1 tv crew yesterday) but every dealer I spoke with said they were doing well in sales. Tables seems less stocked in terms of volume of material (Cleveland looked like a bad swap meet) but there is much less junk than usual.
Other than Norty and Scott Bradshaw I've not seem very much raw material- everything seems to be finding its way into slabs.
Speaking of slabs, PSA's new pack holder is a winner! Unfortunately they are only able to handle standard ('57 and up) initially, but it's a very solid product that holds the pack safely and securely. >>
some guy referred to it as a "Mall show". I did get three cards from real vintage sets i am almost done with now however!
I'll buy graded cards on eBay all day long...I know what I'm getting...
I will NEVER buy ungraded cards on eBay...sorry but these I have to see...and the National is still the only place to see them...in volume that is...and contrary to what some might think...you still can find gradedable cards in ungraded fashion...not many stars, but commons for sure...the only problem is that many of the dealers are selling these cards at graded prices...without the grade...something that can bite you in the ass...because no matter how careful you are...the card you think should be an 8 will not be graded by PSA as an 8...there it becomes a crap-shoot...I'm sorry but here there is no consistency...(I could go on an on...enough said)...
I don't know enough about auctions to comment on any of that subject...
As to the comment about PSA 5 cards getting value out of the holder...almost any card under a PSA 8 will get you more value out of a holder than in!!! Especially if the card looks good...
I was happy to see some younger people at the show...in past shows the halls were filled only with baby-boomers...
I just discovered the GAI-PSA crossover problem...I bought some really nice GAI 8's 1958 cards...sure to cross-over...all three were denied...I nor anyone else that I showed the cards to could explain...
Finally...I love meeting all the people...exchanging thoughts...learning about the hobby...and just the noise of the hall...I suggest...don't buy from the dealers that are over-charging...there always is someone that will deal...
Thanks for your comments...
Collector
Topps 58,59,60,61,62,63,64 Sets
Fleer 60, 61-62 Sets
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>you have to crack GAI cards out most of the time to get them to grade at PSA. SGC's will cross in the holders often. >>
if he is lucky considering GAI likes to grade trimmed,altered and cards with text missing. They will not be in business in four years from now is my guess.
<< <i>by the way...stupid comment was bobscards... want the credit to go to the right person >>
What was stupid about it? Did you go to the luncheon? My guess is that you didn't. Here is the opening of Jim's speech (to the best of my recollection):
I'm sure all of you know that Joe Orlando is a big gun enthusiast and hunter. Well, Joe was out hunting one day and saw a small brown bear. He shot it. He immediately felt a tap on his shoulder. He turned around and there was a large black bear. The bear said, "Joe. You shouldn't have done that. You have two choices. Either I can maul you, or we can have rough sex." Joe thought it over for a minute and decided on the second option. Joe, sore to say the least, limped home afterwards.
A while later, vowing revenge, Joe returned to the wild. He saw the brown bear in the woods, took aim, fired, and the bear dropped. No sooner had he pulled the trigger then he felt another tap on his shoulder. He turned around and there was a very large grizzly bear. The bear said, "Joe. You shouldn't have done that. You have two choices. Either I can maul you, or we can have rough sex." Again, Joe thought about it for a second or two, and once more, chose not to be mauled.
After months of bed rest (and reconstructive surgery), Joe returned to the wilderness. He found the grizzly and shot it. Once again, he felt a tap on his shoulder. When he turned around, he was face to face with an enormous polar bear. The bear said, "Joe. You're not here for the hunting, are you."
(laughter)
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets