Is this a new VAM? 1888-P with M clash

Leiana · July 24, 2006 5:37PM

I have an 1888 P Morgan dollar that was my great-grandfathers. I looked at the VAM website and it's kinda like VAM-11a in the top 100. Only it definitely does not have a doubled ear. The die clashes are very similar, yet a little bit different, almost like a later state. The reverse, though is very interesting. It has visible clash marks, nothing like I was finding on the Vam site. Is this a known VAM, yet not a Top 100 or Hot 50? Or is it simply too late at night and I am seeing things? I have marked Die clashes with red and Obverse die cracks with blue. I'm sorry the pics aren't too good.

Thanks for the help!

-Amanda

messydesk · July 24, 2006 11:02PM

For the clashes alone to establish an entry in the VAM listings, there has to be a transfer of a letter, or part of a letter, from one side to the other. The best candidate on yours is for the bottom right of the 'n' from 'In' to show up in front of Liberty's neck.

Leiana · July 25, 2006 12:04AM

<< For the clashes alone to establish an entry in the VAM listings, there has to be a transfer of a letter, or part of a letter, from one side to the other. The best candidate on yours is for the bottom right of the 'n' from 'In' to show up in front of Liberty's neck. >>

I have been looking very hard for that N and I have yet to find it. So I guess if I don't find it then it's not a VAM. Thanks for your reply!

-Amanda

Leiana · July 25, 2006 2:54AM

Bump?

-Amanda

MajorDuty · July 25, 2006 2:57AM

I would like to know where that clash comes from you have highlighted there next to the wreath on the right. I have a few different Morgans with that exact same mark. I haven't been able to figure out with certainty where it is coming from.

Anyone?

Leiana · July 25, 2006 3:13AM

It comes from this part of the obverse.

-Amanda

EDIT- No it doesn't.

nesvt · July 25, 2006 3:17AM

Check this link to see the clash overlays.

Amanda, be sure to look over the D in GOD for a clashed initial M.

Leiana · July 25, 2006 3:29AM

<< Check this link to see the clash overlays.

Amanda, be sure to look over the D in GOD for a clashed initial M. >>

The M is there! You can only see it at a certain angle, though.

This is like a treasure hunt!

-Amanda

EDIT- I think I found the N too...

nesvt · July 25, 2006 3:39AM

That's super!

I was just checking the recent VAM updates. I don't see ANY 1888-P's with a clashed M over GOD. I may have missed it. It could be a new VAM. It could be a new diagnostic for an existing VAM. Let's see what the afternoon experts have to say.

Leiana · July 25, 2006 3:42AM

<< That's super!

I was just checking the recent VAM updates. I don't see ANY 1888-P's with a clashed M over GOD. I may have missed it. It could be a new VAM. It could be a new diagnostic for an existing VAM. Let's see what the afternoon experts have to say. >>

So you see the M too?

Yay! This is fun! That would be very exciting, I think.

-Amanda

MajorDuty · July 25, 2006 3:50AM

<<

It comes from this part of the obverse.

-Amanda

EDIT- No it doesn't.

>>

It doesn't? Looking at that clash overlay it appears to come from there, but things are upside down and backwards and I'm all turned around. So where does that mark come from again?

Leiana · July 25, 2006 3:53AM

<< 

<<

It comes from this part of the obverse.

-Amanda

EDIT- No it doesn't.

>>

It doesn't? Looking at that clash overlay it appears to come from there, but things are upside down and backwards and I'm all turned around. So where does that mark come from again? >>

I'm not sure, the overlays really confused me too.

-Amanda

EDIT- after another look at the overlays, I think it comes from Liberty's nose.

messydesk · July 25, 2006 3:57AM

Tough call on that M. They're almost always hard to see. First time I saw one, it looked like the Bat-signal. If it is there and it is new, it'll have to go to Leroy Van Allen for inclusion in the VAM listings. I've been authorized by the promotions department of the Variety Slabbing Service to issue you a "YN Freebie" gift certificate for this coin. I'll take a closer look and send it to Leroy with some other coins I have going to him. When I get it back, I'll send it back to you in a VAMSlab. PM me if that sounds good to you.

nesvt · July 25, 2006 3:58AM

<< So you see the M too?

Yay! This is fun! That would be very exciting, I think. >>

I have hard time seeing anything. My eyes are too old!

Sometimes it's very subtle... like this...

nesvt · July 25, 2006 3:59AM

Nice idea John! And a generous one too!

Leiana · July 25, 2006 4:12AM

<< Tough call on that M. They're almost always hard to see. First time I saw one, it looked like the Bat-signal. If it is there and it is new, it'll have to go to Leroy Van Allen for inclusion in the VAM listings. I've been authorized by the promotions department of the Variety Slabbing Service to issue you a "YN Freebie" gift certificate for this coin. I'll take a closer look and send it to Leroy with some other coins I have going to him. When I get it back, I'll send it back to you in a VAMSlab. PM me if that sounds good to you. >>

That a very generous offer, I'll have to talk with my parents when they get home from work. It's kinda a family heirloom because it belonged to my mom's grampa and my dad is the one who gave it to him and it's been in the same capitol holder for almost 30 years. So I'm really not sure how open to that they would be, and I would DEFINITELY need their permission. I think it's a great idea and that it would be really cool to find a new VAM. Thanks! I'll let you know.

-Amanda

eyoung429 · July 25, 2006 5:20AM

Ok, I can't believe that nobody else has stated the obviouse

Maybe that will change the tune if this is the same coin......

Also, how about a close-up of "Liberty"

Leiana · July 25, 2006 5:30AM

eyoung- that is from the same coin. What does it mean? It kinda looks like part of an A. Here is a larger view of Liberty.

-Amanda

nesvt · July 25, 2006 5:57AM

eyoung429, that's a blow up of Amanda's coin, right? You're pointing to clashing caused by the wreath on the reverse.

Leiana · July 25, 2006 6:27AM

I found a clash here, too.

-Amanda

Leiana · July 25, 2006 7:25AM

Bump

MAD4MORGANS · July 25, 2006 7:59AM

Leiana · July 25, 2006 9:36AM

Thanks for the die-rotation pics, MAD4MORGANS! Anybody else have an opinion on this?

-Amanda

Coxe · July 25, 2006 11:47AM

OK. I sent a later state of that same one to Leroy last Spring. The one I have has a second clash close to the same rotation as the first. It is a very well struck PCGS 63. (And one of the few OGHs that really looks like a potential upgrade.) His response:

VAM 1. Date at left edge of normal position. No clashed letters visible. Vertical clash lines from wing up to just left of G means n is too far left of clash to transfer to obv.

He wouldn't validate a t clash, as too faint to photograph or not there at all. The M clashes are very tough to validate. The incuse nature combined with their tendency to get lost in or confused by local field die erosion makes it maddening even on the strong clashes and strong strikes. They tend to become phantoms moreso than even E clashes the longer you look for them.

RobJoyce1921dVAMguy · July 25, 2006 11:53AM

Amanda,
Nice find. I'd send it to Leroy.
Rob

Coxe · July 25, 2006 12:02PM

I agree. It is always a good experience to send a stumper to him, regardless of everything else. Good luck with it!

Leiana · July 25, 2006 12:11PM

Thanks for your thoughts! I truly appreciate them!

-Amanda

MAD4MORGANS · July 25, 2006 9:06PM

<< The incuse nature combined with their tendency to get lost in or confused by local field die erosion makes it maddening even on the strong clashes and strong strikes. They tend to become phantoms moreso than even E clashes the longer you look for them. >>

Looking at Leiana's coin the "M" sure looks like its visible and the angle looks right as well.

I've found looking for clashes under the fluorescent light over our vanity, the clashes are a lot more visible to see under that "hard" lighting compared to an incandescent bulb.

Leiana · July 26, 2006 2:05AM

My M is in the same place as that one. You're right, it is alot easier to see under flourescent light. You have to look for it with a loupe and tilt the coin so the light catches on the M. It's not very obvious unless you know where to look, but it's definitely there!

-Amanda

messydesk · July 26, 2006 2:55AM

If the bat signal is there, he should give it a designation. Sometime it all depends on if he can photograph it well enough for someone to be able to attribute their coin to the picture.

Coxe · July 26, 2006 2:59AM

Is the M in the right place though for the rotation? If that is an M, perhaps from a different clash? I have a couple Morgans with clashed obverse and reverse where they are definitely from different clashes and had not clashed with each other.

Leiana · July 26, 2006 9:27AM

<< Is the M in the right place though for the rotation? If that is an M, perhaps from a different clash? I have a couple Morgans with clashed obverse and reverse where they are definitely from different clashes and had not clashed with each other. >>

After thinking about your comment and studying the rotation pics and comparing them with my coin, I think the clash has a little rotation, like -3 degrees.

My parents have decided that we should send it to be verified.

-Amanda

nesvt · July 26, 2006 9:30AM

<< My parents have decided that we should send it to be verified. >>

MAD4MORGANS · July 26, 2006 10:28AM

<< 

<< My parents have decided that we should send it to be verified. >>

>>

YOU GO GIRL!!

Is this a new VAM? 1888-P with M clash

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