The copper Lincolns which were made years after changing to zinc

kranky

The article in NN by about Billy Crawford's find of an 1983 Lincoln on a older-style copper planchet also mentioned others that have been found. Mr. Crawford explained how he found his - painstakingly weighing every 1983 Lincoln he came across, because he strongly suspected there had to be some transitional errors out there. And he eventually found one.

The others mentioned in the article included a 1989-D and a 1990-D Lincoln known to exist on copper planchets. It didn't say anything about how those were discovered.

I can see why Mr. Crawford looked hard at the 1983 Lincolns because if there was going to be a transitional error, that is when it would be most likely to happen. But by 1989 and 1990, over six years after the switch to copper-plated zinc... the chances of having stray copper planchets still around would be infinitesimal. So my question is - how were the 1989 and 1990 copper Lincolns found? Is someone out there weighing every post-1982 cent in the hopes of finding one of these? From 1984-1990, there were 79 billion cents minted and it would seem pointless to look for an error that not only has to be weighed to be identified, but has a far less than one-in-a-billion chance of existing anyway.

I cannot think of a plausible way for these coins to have been found.

joecheck

I had the exact same thought. First, I commend Billy Crawford for weighing every 1983 cent that he came his way. That is a tremendous undertaking. I search many, many cents for varieties. I have tried weighing them for a short period of time and it is a time consuming process.

How did a 1989-D and a 1990-D Lincoln come into existence? And, what are the odds that a single person who weighed cents would come into contact with the single cent that was struck on a dislodged planchet stuck in a bin for over 6 years?

I believe there are more 1983's to be found. But, the other 3 (don't forget the 1989-D Double Struck one) are a stretch. I can't fathom a way they were found without help.

RickMilauskas

I separate my 1982 copper and zinc Lincoln's by dropping them on a countertop and listening to the "ring."

The copper ones have a distinctly "metallic" ring to them and the zinc a flatter "plastic" sound.

With a little bit of practice it's pretty easy. Make sure your coutertop is hard and not wooden for best results.

Conder101

Suppose you have some device that seperates the copper from the zinc cents (You are wanting to hoard the copper) after you do the seperation you are going through then just doing general looking and you run across a piece that should be a zincoln. You figure the machine goofed so you do a manual check and HEY it IS copper!

I'm still wondering when a 1982-D copper small date is going to show up. It's the only 1982 variety not known to exist, but if there were copper blanks around years later to create the 89-D and 90-D copper cents, there were bound to be some still around in 1982 after they switched over to the zinc planchets.

friend

Just curious, if someone was lucky enough to come across one of these coins, what would the value be? If it has to do with financial gain at all. Thank you.
Tom

joecheck

<<Suppose you have some device that seperates the copper from the zinc cents>>

As far as I know, there is no such device. The claimed device was a fraud.

kranky

<< <i>Just curious, if someone was lucky enough to come across one of these coins, what would the value be? If it has to do with financial gain at all. Thank you.
Tom >>



Mike Byers has a couple for sale now at $15,000 each, and another that is also double-struck for $25,000.

Byers

The Transitional Cents that I own (described in Billy's article) were found in the same manner. The collector who sold me all 3 went through hundreds of bags.

bigtonydallas

What are the specifics on weight for the copper vs zinc?

Couldn't you weigh a hundred cents and determine if one was off? or 10 cents at a time? Is the difference so small?

Wow another variety for me to look for? Are there any visual clues?

Thanks!!!

kranky

I just find it hard to believe that someone went through hundreds of bags of coins (200 Lincoln bags would be a million coins) on the incredibly slim chance that there was a transitional error made years after they abandoned the copper cent. I don't doubt that's the story the guy is telling... just that I personally have a very hard time believing it.

bigtonydallas, there are no visual clues that I am aware of. The copper-plated zinc (mid-1982 and later) coins weigh 2.5 grams. The copper ones weigh 3.11 grams. The number you could weigh at one time would depend on the accuracy of your scale.

friend

I guess I am a little slow on understanding, but I suppose having a 1982-D lincoln copper coin is not anything unique.
Is this correct? I have all these Lincolns here and I really have no clue what I should be looking for. LOL
Are the rare ones only 1989-D and 1990-D copper coins? Thank you.
I am only into my third week collecting, but loving every minute. I just wish I could learn a little quicker, I know I am expecting to much to fast. I think I will just slow down a little and try not to get to overwhelmed.
Thank you for your help.

kranky

friend, both copper and zinc cents were made in 1982. They switched from copper to zinc in mid-year. Any copper cent dated 1983 or later would be a real find, no matter what year or mint. It just so happens the ones that have been found are 1989-D and 1990-D. Personally, if I was going to look for them, I'd do what Billy Crawford did and look at all the 1983 Lincolns. If there are more out there, it's most likely they would be 1983 cents. But the chances of finding one are very, very, very small.

I'm glad you're enjoying your coins!

friend

I know the odds are very very slim on finding one of these coins, but I was just curious the 1983 coin you mentioned is this 1983 or does it have to have the "D"? I came across a 1983 without the "D" and I know it is not the same metal as the other "80's" I have beside them and it does not sound the same when I drop it. This all I have to go by, I do not have a coin scale. I know I am just reaching here so please forgive me for bothering anyone. Thank you.

bigtonydallas

Kranky,
If you are already measuring at 2.5 grams that would be accurate enough. I am sure there is a variance on the 2.5 & 3.11 numbers. So if I weigh 100 1983 cents they should weigh 250 grams! if they weigh 250.611 then either each one of them are 2.59 grams or i have a potential copper one! Just trying to weigh more. If I weigh 10 then they should be 25 grams. Right? Or am I missing something?

kranky

You bring up an excellent point - the number of coins you weigh at one time has to be small enough to be able to see the difference between a possible 0.61 gram weight difference for a single coin (the weight difference between copper and zinc coins) AND the possible accumulation of whatever the allowable weight tolerance is at the mint for a single planchet over a number of coins. That must be taken into account.

You'd have to know what the plus/minus allowance is for a single planchet. I don't know what that number is, but if I had to guess I would think it's in the neighborhood of 0.1g. If we knew the answer, we could work out the maximum number of coins you could weigh at one time while still being certain to detect any copper ones in the pile being weighed. My gut feeling is that five at a time would work.

moosesr

Maybe a metal detector could tell the difference?

LincolnsRule

After all the Lincoln rolls I've looked through I can tell them apart at a glance.

kranky

Teach the rest of us how to do that!

StrikeOutXXX

<< <i>Maybe a metal detector could tell the difference? >>



Many/most of the upper end ones can. For an air-waving test, mine will tell the difference fairly easily, but I would think it would still take about as long as setting it on a scale.

I wish I could do it by sight though

Conder101

<< <i>You'd have to know what the plus/minus allowance is for a single planchet. I don't know what that number is, but if I had to guess I would think it's in the neighborhood of 0.1g. >>


Very good, you happen to be exactly right. The tolerance is +/- .1 grams for zinc .13 grams for copper. You would still have to weigh them individually. Well you might be ablr to get it to work weighing three at a time but that would hardly be any time savings at all.

bigtonydallas

I wonder if an original mint bag would be a good test to do 50 coins at a pop. You could test the ones toward the high end for a copper. But if the tolerance is -.1 then you could miss one but you would not have to weigh each one! I am all for increasing my odds!!!

kranky

Thanks to Conder101 for the tolerances (I knew he'd know the answer, glad he replied! )

Weighing even 10 at a time could easily cause you to overlook the very coins you would be looking for. Even doing five at a time, there's a slight chance you could be fooled and miss a possible transitional error. I won't numb you with the figures, but I'll give you one example. Take five coins. Three are at the light end for zinc (2.4g), one is at the heavy end for zinc (2.6g), and one is the transitional error you're searching for (3.11g). The total weight is 12.91g. If you had five zinc coins, the possible range of values could be anywhere from 12.0 to 13.0g, because you have to allow for the tolerances for all five coins to be light, or all five to be heavy.

The point is that 12.91g weight for five coins (one being copper) is within the range of possible weight for five zinc coins. So if five coins weigh 12.91g, you don't really know if there's any copper ones in the pile of five or not.

You don't want to spend all that time weighing them and then possibly miss the very coin you are looking for.

I think if you want to be absolutely sure to catch a transitional Lincoln, you should weigh no more than 3 coins at a time.

LincolnsRule

The zinc cents will be clean but with perhaps some discrete marks. The copper ones even in super high grade will still have chatter. The zinc large dates always have a softer looking strike, esp on the shoulder (I think a reason pcgs hasn't give out any ms68's to them in 2.5 years, they used to not care). Also if it has tiny bubbles in the surface that's a giveaway that it is zinc. The copper ones tone and look the same as the other pre 1982 (esp late 70's) cents, and the zinc large dates are almost always red in color. The small dates are red or an orange differing from the paler copper color. If you put a 1982 cent in between a 1981 and 1983, it should be clear which it looks more like.

cladking

Some people can feel the difference in weight. I can't always tell but will ring it if suspicious.

There is a look copper can have that copper coated zinc can't, but I don't know if this applies to these coins.

bigtonydallas

Granted you could possibly miss some but if you get an average for each lot of say 50 and they are all exactly the same then it would allow me to feel that they are all the same. Now if each sample was say 5-10 grams off then you would have to sample smaller lots until you got within 1-2 gram difference. It may go back down to weighing each individual coin but its worth a shot.

How much would an 83 copper be valued at? I know grade would play a significant factor but any estimates?

bigtonydallas

What about the transition for the Jefferson nickles of WWII? Were there any non-silver 1942-S? Also any silver 1946? Is there a weight difference? If so, what is it?
Thanks,

seanq

<< <i>What about the transition for the Jefferson nickles of WWII? Were there any non-silver 1942-S? Also any silver 1946? Is there a weight difference? If so, what is it?
Thanks, >>



I believe there is at least one 1946 nickel known on a leftover silver planchet. There are three or four silver-era five-cent pieces struck on nickel blanks, i believe they were all dated 1943 and 1944. My memory on this last one is sketchy, but I recall Breen listed a 1942-S nickel on a silver planchet with the small mintmark on the reverse next to Monticallo (instead of the large mintmark over it).

I'm sure Mike Byers can fill in some of the details on the copper-nickel war era pieces, I think he might have owned one or two of them in the past.


Sean Reynolds

kwmorgan

The transitional errors I have always wanted, but will never be able to afford are the 1965 silver Roosevelt dime and 1965 silver Washington quarter. 1965 is my birthyear and I would love to have them. Since I collect Canadian as well, I have settled for a 1965 Canadian mint set. Canada's last year of 80% silver was 1967, if I remember correctly.