Steve Hart/BBC Exchange Story

Ripken

Those of you who are wax/cello/rack/vending fans should enjoy this piece about unopened material and Steve Hart becoming the authenticator for PSA's pack grading program. SportsCollectorsDaily story

cravetopps

great choice as far as I am concerned.

mikeschmidt

<< <i>great choice as far as I am concerned. >>



Great guy for sure. Hope that the potential conflict issues don't cause any concern.

SKINSFAN

great choice as far as I am concerned. >>



Great guy for sure. Hope that the potential conflict issues don't cause any concern.



DITTO THAT would like to see Steve sell off his wax and stay out of that end of things if he is going to work with psa

ldferg

great news for both parties...

i agree. i can't see how he can be the PSA authenticator and continue to sell unopened material without it being a conflict.

maybe he could sell it to paoutdoorsman...LOL (sorry to bring that guy back up).

grote15

I, too, think that Steve is the best choice for PSA pack authentication. His integrity and honesty are beyond question and he will be an asset to PSA, much more so than Mark Murphy was for GAI. I trust him 100%.

FJ

<< <i>I, too, think that Steve is the best choice for PSA pack authentication. His integrity and honesty are beyond question and he will be an asset to PSA, much more so than Mark Murphy was for GAI. I trust him 100%. >>



Steve is a great pickup. No question there. Mark Murphy was the gold standard from about 1989-2003. Steve's reign as the gold standand has really only been the last 3 years. During this time, Murphy lost most of what he spent 14 years to build. I would be very interested to hear that full story sometime. I think everyone knows about his fire and the move from Conneticut to California and that he and GAI separated ways shortly after starting pack grading. The entire story of the rise and fall and potential new resurrection at GAI would be for a good article.

grote15

From what I understand, Mark is now back as chief authenticator for GAI, after the Ryan Rutter fiasco, FWIW. GAI has certainly had more than its fair share of problems for sure!

FJ

<< <i>From what I understand, Mark is now back as chief authenticator for GAI, after the Ryan Rutter fiasco, FWIW. GAI has certainly had more than its fair share of problems for sure! >>



What is the whole story regarding the Ryan Rutter fiasco?

flatfoot816

on Ryan Rutter--search this site using his name. At first PSA pulled the thread, but then put it back on. Interesting reading.

As for Murhpy, desparate times call for desparate measures. How can he all of a sudden have all these GAI-9 and GAI-10 '68 wax packs (Bench and Mantle series)? Oh yeah, and how about those PSA-10 '86/7 basketball packs going for like, $1,200!! Wow, tlk about lucky to have all those high grade packs!

yankeeno7

I wonder if GAI will be grading the vintage "Christmas" rack packs???? Sorry, sometimes I just crack myself up!

packCollector

don;t think steve will stop selling. there is no way PSA could pay him enough money to give up the business that he has

SKINSFAN

PACK i think he can give up selling graded packs as most of wab he sells is non graded anyway

rvc

cant find ryan rutter story

packCollector

ART , I think that would be nice but if he would need to give up selling pre 70 items and that would not only be a loss to himself , it would be a loss to the hobby as a whole. imo

SKINSFAN

Duncan If i was Seve , he could still sell graded gai wax but just not psa.
With his rep he can always offer it raw also
Heck even with a money back if it fails to grade by psa

brianwintersfan

Well I don't really have an issue with him working for PSA and selling their graded packs. I mean if people including me trust him with our money now and are buying ungraded packs and boxes from him why would he suddenly become dishonest and start to push through resealed garbage??
He is a good guy and I have complete trust in his business practices.

SKINSFAN

<< <i>Well I don't really have an issue with him working for PSA and selling their graded packs. I mean if people including me trust him with our money now and are buying ungraded packs and boxes from him why would he suddenly become dishonest and start to push through resealed garbage??
He is a good guy and I have complete trust in his business practices. >>



Personal i could not agree more its not guys like yourself ,myself ,duncan any of us that know Steves rep is as good as it gets ,And personaly your not going to find a better guy to deal with.
My fear would be the pure headache just 1 A----hole can create for no good reason. AND IT HAPPENS
Thats the only reason i would want to not sell psa packs if i was Steve, it sipmle may not be worth the risk dont give the idiots any ammo in other words

Griffins

Normally I'd be pretty opposed to a dealer grading and selling the same product. But in the case of Steve Hart it greatly increases my confidence in the product. Knowledgable, personable, and honest is the perfect combination, and Steve is all of those.
He's only giving the packs a or not, the card graders will assign a numerical grade. I don't think you'll be seeing any bogus '58 or grocery cellos or Xmas racks in PSA holders.

grote15

What griffins said.

I doubt you'll see any headless 74 racks graded Mint 8.5 or 9, either!

eyebone

Don't think Steve will be grading the packs, think he is just determining if the packs are authentic and untampered with.

Eyebone

grote15

Which makes it easier to accept. I don't think it's fair if the same person both authenticates and assigns a grade to the pack. That was one of the problems that GAI had.

Ripken

Steve is NOT grading packs, just giving his own 'yay' or 'nay' on whether the pack is the genuine unopened article. PSA graders will assign the grade.

Kosmo

I do not know Steve Hart and will accept everyone's opinion that he is 100% honest. To me, the issue is not about Steve, but the appearance of a conflict of interest. Even if Steve is only authenticating packs there is still a conflict of interest if he is offering opinions on his own packs or packs from dealers and collectors he buys from. If a pack is not deemed authentic it cannot be graded and, therefore, will likely be worth less than a graded pack. This means a smaller profit if you are the orignal owner (i.e., you bought it from the candy store). If you are not the original owner and are re-selling the pack it could mean a smaller profit or a possible loss.

It is a bad precedent because the next person PSA hires with a similar conflict of interest may not be so honest or may start out honest and give in to the temptation.

ldferg

where can more info on mark murphy be found? i heard about the fire and am noticing some high graded material coming back to his store and auctions. didn't know he was back with GAI.

packCollector

<< <i> do not know Steve Hart and will accept everyone's opinion that he is 100% honest. To me, the issue is not about Steve, but the appearance of a conflict of interest. Even if Steve is only authenticating packs there is still a conflict of interest if he is offering opinions on his own packs or packs from dealers and collectors he buys from. If a pack is not deemed authentic it cannot be graded and, therefore, will likely be worth less than a graded pack. This means a smaller profit if you are the orignal owner (i.e., you bought it from the candy store). If you are not the original owner and are re-selling the pack it could mean a smaller profit or a possible loss.

It is a bad precedent because the next person PSA hires with a similar conflict of interest may not be so honest or may start out honest and give in to the temptation.
>>



kosmo, unfortunately , packs are not like cards. there are very few people who can authenticate packs with enough confidence to be deemed an expert . murphy , steve and paul wright are at the top of a very short list. therefore , it is really the only way it can be done. also, puts psa in a rough situation since there will be no backup . what if steve quits? will they suffer the same fate as gai in terms of packs? will they close shop? will they hire a less worthy authenticator that leads to a debacle(i.e the 58 and grocery cellos) and ruin the integrity of the product? this is a dangerous path for psa to take to try to put a nail in gai's coffin but competition is best and there needs to be a better alternative to service than gai so cross your fingers and wish for the best

Ripken

Steve is not the first person PSA has hired who also sells. Unfortunately, the majority of the experts in the field of sports memorabilia aren't strictly collectors. They have a business interest & are successful precisely because of their expertise and reputation. It does require the company itself to be very diligent to make sure everything is done appropriately. I suppose you could teach someone the art of authentication but it likely isn't in PSA's budget to hire and train someone, then pay them a hefty salary to work for them in that arena only.

grote15

I may be a bit biased because I've bought many vintage packs from Steve over the years, but he is the most reputable and most honest dealer of unopened material in the nation. Mark had a following for a while and was the man several years back, but Steve has easily eclipsed him over the last couple of years and he now stands alone, IMHO. Like packcollector said, grading unopened material is much different than grading cards and getting Steve to authenticate was a real coup for PSA. I just hope he stays on for an extended period of time. Part of the problem with GAI was the revolving door of unopened "experts" they signed to do the authenticating, some of whom turned out to be somewhat less than reputable.

Kosmo

Packcollector,

your points are well taken. If it is within PSA 's budget to train and pay someone who does not buy or sell packs, they should do so. I cannot imagine it would cost more than a trainee salary and some lost productivity from the employee doing the training. There is no expensive school to send the person to. At a minimum, PSA should disclose to customers that its authenticator(s) of packs, and cards if applicable, buy and sell packs or cards. This disclosure should be on the submission form - and not hidden on the back in tiny print. Otherwise, it is like reading about a study that claims a certain product has great health benefits without being told the study was funded by the manufacturer of the product.

grote15

If it is within PSA 's budget to train and pay someone who does not buy or sell packs, they should do so. I cannot imagine it would cost more than a trainee salary and some lost productivity from the employee doing the training. There is no expensive school to send the person to

That scenario would never work and would only ensure certain failure on the part of PSA. Very few people are knowledgable or experienced enough to qualify as an unopened pack authenticator. Even long-time collectors with years of experience in this area will defer to the expert opinion of someone like Steve Hart, whose knowledge, experience and integrity are unparalleled in the hobby. If you seriously believe that you can train someone off the street to be an expert on evaluating unopened material, then you have absolutely NO IDEA about that aspect of the hobby or the area of unopened pack authentication in general.

Kosmo

people are trained to do more difficult tasks in other fields everyday.

packCollector

<< <i>people are trained to do more difficult tasks in other fields everyday. >>



most people are trained through books and procedures. Their isn't a book on packs as to how they were made , distributed , etc. Knowledge is from experience in buying collections. Sure someone can get up to speed to know 60% but that is not acceptable. Whoever is authenticating needs to know pretty much on the fly the thickness of the cello phane used by topps in what periods. were packs even made that way in that year etc. Take for example the guy at GAI, he does not have as much experience as some of the big dealers in vintage and guess what , he authenticated 2 boxes of FAKE 58 cellos. these cellos would never have gotten buy an experienced dealer.

from an outsiders perspective I can see why one would rather have an unbiased authenticated , I would too , but from someone who has bought and sold and been on the good and bad ends, you can also see why you need someone who has dealt with the items like Steve in order to have any confidence inthe product

Griffins

There is already a lot of talk and examples of cards that have been improved making into every grading companies slabs. Those are still real cards- with packs you're talking about a completely fabricated item. Pack grading is a lot harder, and a lot of it is a matter of experience and feel. Steve told me that for the most part he couldn't grade packs thru GAI holders, and they would need to be cracked out. If the best in the hobby needs to look that closely I sure don't trust someone who has gone thru a 2 week training course, no matter who is conducting it.
Some bogus '58 Cellos and grocery packs helped the pack market to take a huge hit, and eroded a lot of collector confidence in Global. I'd hate to see that happen again, and don't believe it will if Steve is doing the authenticating.

Kosmo

good discussion. I think alot of interesting points were made.

NickM

Based on what I've heard, I would actually consider Xmas packs to be a legitimate item for authentication, as a vintage aftermarket pack.

Nick

Griffins

<< <i>Based on what I've heard, I would actually consider Xmas packs to be a legitimate item for authentication, as a vintage aftermarket pack. >>



You sure Nick? How are those Xmas packs any different that me taking some old commons and packaging them up? They aren't an authorized product, created and distributed thru any normal channels by a legitimate manufacturer.
When a prominant pack "authority" approved of these he lost all credibility in my mind. They were created with an intent to deceive, nothing more.

grote15

They were created with an intent to deceive, nothing more.

I agree 100% with that statement. That is why, most of the time, the bidding for these "Christmas" racks on ebay is private.

NickM

<<<< Based on what I've heard, I would actually consider Xmas packs to be a legitimate item for authentication, as a vintage aftermarket pack. >>



You sure Nick? How are those Xmas packs any different that me taking some old commons and packaging them up? They aren't an authorized product, created and distributed thru any normal channels by a legitimate manufacturer.
When a prominant pack "authority" approved of these he lost all credibility in my mind. They were created with an intent to deceive, nothing more. >>

The Xmas packs first appeared in the 1960s, and they apparently were not sorted to remove high-value cards. Where is an intent to deceive? As long as the approval clearly indicates that they were an aftermarket pack (i.e., repackaged by someone other than the original manufacturer), where is the harm?

Nick

grote15

The Xmas packs first appeared in the 1960s, and they apparently were not sorted to remove high-value cards. Where is an intent to deceive? As long as the approval clearly indicates that they were an aftermarket pack (i.e., repackaged by someone other than the original manufacturer), where is the harm?

The harm is that unsuspecting collectors believe these are legitimate Topps issued rack packs, when they are anything but. Cards in these infamous "Christmas" racks will grade out EX-MT at best and are not nearly worth the premium one would normally associate with legitimate or authentic unopened product. These rack are on the same level as all those bogus, basement-made "grocery" cello packs from 1970-1973 that have been floating around on ebay over the last year and no true or experienced collector of unopened material would ever bid on them as such.

NickM

<<The Xmas packs first appeared in the 1960s, and they apparently were not sorted to remove high-value cards. Where is an intent to deceive? As long as the approval clearly indicates that they were an aftermarket pack (i.e., repackaged by someone other than the original manufacturer), where is the harm?

The harm is that unsuspecting collectors believe these are legitimate Topps issued rack packs, when they are anything but. Cards in these infamous "Christmas" racks will grade out EX-MT at best and are not nearly worth the premium one would normally associate with legitimate or authentic unopened product. These rack are on the same level as all those bogus, basement-made "grocery" cello packs from 1970-1973 that have been floating around on ebay over the last year and no true or experienced collector of unopened material would ever bid on them as such. >>

If it's labeled as an aftermarket pack, a collector who thinks it's Topps-issued is more than unsuspecting; he's clueless. That word means it's not factory-original.

I agree that they will not normally produce NM or better cards (although I expect there will be exceptions) and are not worth anywhere near the premium associated with original unopened material. But that doesn't make them the same as the fake early 70s cellos that have been auctioned and sold on eBay widely. Those are cherry-picked cards, are a modern creation, and are falsely presented as being Topps originals.

Bidding on the fake early 1970s cellos is rewarding a scammer. Buying a Xmas rack pack, as long as you understand what you are getting, is still getting a collectible vintage item with some value - the cards are real and almost certainly unaltered - and it may be a great display item for a player collector who can't afford (or wouldn't want to spend the money for) an original Topps pack with his favorite superstar on the front.

Nick

packCollector

I have some packs that I made 20 years ago, they are easter packs with the cards packed inside a chocolate bunny. They were not cherry picked but I suspect the choclate may make them a little off grade. I am sending them to Global for submission to be labeled as aftermarket bunny packs.

GIVE ME A BREAK , there is no reason to grade or holder them. they are an aftermarket package and nobody knows when and where they were made. the fact that murphy sold them without pointing out what they really were is a joke and just as bad as any of the scammers out there since he used his reputation to push a bunch of homemade crap.

grote15

But that doesn't make them the same as the fake early 70s cellos that have been auctioned and sold on eBay widely. Those are cherry-picked cards

Not true. There have been many bogus grocery cellos from 1970-1974 with "star" cards on top. Despite that, however, these packs are certainly not "unopened" or "authentic" and should never have been labeled as such. As packcollector correctly pointed out, NO ONE knows when or where or by whom these "Christmas" racks were packaged, so to say that these racks should be AUTHENTICATED as unopened as you suggested defies logic and is utterly ridiculous. It's either an unopened or authentic product or it's not. And those Christmas racks are anything but authentic.

NickM

<<But that doesn't make them the same as the fake early 70s cellos that have been auctioned and sold on eBay widely. Those are cherry-picked cards

Not true. There have been many bogus grocery cellos from 1970-1974 with "star" cards on top. Despite that, however, these packs are certainly not "unopened" or "authentic" and should never have been labeled as such. As packcollector correctly pointed out, NO ONE knows when or where or by whom these "Christmas" racks were packaged, so to say that these racks should be AUTHENTICATED as unopened as you suggested defies logic and is utterly ridiculous. It's either an unopened or authentic product or it's not. And those Christmas racks are anything but authentic. >>

Can the hyperbole.

The fake early 1970s cellos don't have any stars inside. They were cherry-picked.

The Xmas racks were produced at least as far back as 1963, based on the statements from some collectors as to having received them as kids for Christmas that long ago.

They weren't homemade - they were made in fairly large quantities and sold in five-and dime stores and drugstores in the Northeast, which strongly suggests that a distributor of Topps products made these using leftovers which were returned.

As to whether the packs are unopened, if no one has tampered with them since the time they were sealed in the early 1960s, they're unopened. That doesn't make them Topps packs; it makes them vintage aftermarket packs, and authentication should be clear as to what they are.

Nick

grote15

I truly doubt that Steve Hart would ever authenticate any Christmas racks as unopened product, after-market or otherwise. GAI didn't either, for very good reason.

packCollector

if GAI (Grade Anything Inc.) won't grade them , nobody will. they are bogus they were not made in the early 60's contrary to what you have heard 2nd hand , they were made 25-30 years ago. That is 1st hand knowledge from the person who bought them with mark Murphy. The staples that were used to seal them are dated to 30 years ago is what I was told right from the source.

Not sure why you are so hung up on them Nick, are you stuck with a large pile of them that you got suckered into buying for top dollar?

ever here of anyone pulling stars from them? how do you know they weren't cherry picked? they are what they are and let it go. a 30 year old pack that will have modest value to certain collectors. similar to those blister packs that were made in the early 80's with 30 "vintage" cards" or something like that .

bishop

Oh oh. Now we need someone who can authenticate the age of staples.

grote15

Oh oh. Now we need someone who can authenticate the age of staples.

Wouldn't you rather know the real story? I know I would, but that's just me. Lack of knowledge about authentic unopened material is the main reason that Steve Hart himself in a recent article estimated that up to 50% of the unopened material up for sale on ebay is resealed junk or bogus product like those Christmas racks.

NickM

<<if GAI (Grade Anything Inc.) won't grade them , nobody will. they are bogus they were not made in the early 60's contrary to what you have heard 2nd hand , they were made 25-30 years ago. That is 1st hand knowledge from the person who bought them with mark Murphy. The staples that were used to seal them are dated to 30 years ago is what I was told right from the source.

Not sure why you are so hung up on them Nick, are you stuck with a large pile of them that you got suckered into buying for top dollar?

ever here of anyone pulling stars from them? how do you know they weren't cherry picked? they are what they are and let it go. a 30 year old pack that will have modest value to certain collectors. similar to those blister packs that were made in the early 80's with 30 "vintage" cards" or something like that . >>

I never bought any. But I know people who got these as kids in the 1960s - and were not happy that they got old cards where lots of the guys had changed teams.

Nick

Enigma

...

bishop

Yes, I would like to know the true story, and now I have several to pick from. But at least I do now know that I can readily buy old staples, and that if these "packs" are good for nothing else, at least they make interesting conversation pieces

NickM

Why do I think Ylder Riza is back with a new fake identity?

Nick