OK, so I need ALL veteran swappers' attention, including those that would like to participate in fut

Boom

The way I look at it, as hard as I TRY to see the good in people, IGNORANCE knows no bounds. I simply cannot and will not tolerate STUPIDITY.

Time after countless time there is alwasy needless BS involved, so here's what I want to see happen.

I want any and everybody's voices to be heard and we are going to put some very basic, VERY SIMPLE, guidelines in place. This place is open for discussion at this point in time as we are about to endeavor making this an Official Organized Coin Club. No fees, no dues ... just a few very simple rules, if you will.

There MUST BE a Roster drawn up and a Member Rating System and I'll tell all of you why. If any member of this so-called "Club" continually persists in being a pain in the ... neck, THERE WILL BE NO STRIKE 3.

There must be some way (I like the idea of a "Coin Bank") of Guaranteeing members are NOT left hung out to dry AND THERE WILL BE ACCOUNTABILITY. I WILL NOT HESITATE to personally see to it that anyone who steals is prosecuted to the fullest because screwing around with the mail across state boundaries, especially involving THEFT, IS A FELONY FEDERAL RAP.

I want to hear some feedback from any and every one that wants to have a say in this matter.

EVERY SWAP, UPON MAILING, EVERY MEMBER WILL POST DELIVERY CONFIRMATION NUMBERS FOR ALL TO SEE .... NO EXCEPTIONS. THIS CRAP IS GOING TO END NOW!!

I WANT and ASK for EVERYONE's personal, verifiable information (via PM) and it will be kept by ME and those that will work in conjunction with me to see to it that things are run smoothly and correctly around here from now on.

I will appoint my personal RIGHT HAND MAN publicly soon. The INSIDER's ID will oviously be kept secret for good reason. Obviously this is going to be an organized GROUP with Officers or hand picked assistants placed in strategic positions.

dcamp78 and BigJohnD have both stepped up to the plate and offered their services. They will be notified. I appreciate it.

RULES (KISS - Keep it Simple Stupid)

1- COMMUNICATION- An agreed upon amount will be made between swappers as well as HOW the figures are arrived at.

2- POSTING DELIVERY CONFIRMATION NUMBERS is no longer an option. IT WILL BE DONE HERE, PUBLICLY BY ALL.

3- PUBLICLY DECLARING how your respective swaps went upon culmination. No one is to DO anything with what is sent until both members are satisfied AND IS STATED SO PUBLICLY.

4- NOT PLACING unreal demands on your mate. Treat each other with dignity and respect. This is NOT a dump your undesirables on somebody club. Treat your mate as you would like to be treated.

5- KEEPING OF A REGISTRY AND INSTITUTING A MEMBER RATING SYSTEM. If you're problematic, you're outta here.

6- INSURING YOUR ITEMS against being LOST or Stolen by the evil, Phantom Mail Carrier.


Anybody have anything to say, to discuss or to add here? Things you like or do not like? SPEAK UP NOW!

If anyone can think of a better system YOU LET ME KNOW.


IT IS ALSO A GIVEN THAT NO NEWBIE SHALL TAKE PART UNTIL THOROUGHLY SCREENED BY ME. This is why I want

everyones' records. The newbies have to do it and I don't have any problems with them so, DUH, I had the Epihany that

if that concept worked so well with them then perhaps it would work well right across the board. Let's hear it.

ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY..... SOUND OFF NOW !

We will come up with an Official Coin Club Name soon.

Boom

HELLO ...please PM me with your personal info as I am recording it NOW.

Musky1011

Info sent by PM

Jim

ledzep87

PM sent with personal info per request.

ebay name: ledzep87

dcamp78

Info sent via PM as requested.

gyocomgd

The lord hath spoken! PM with personal info sent!

claychaser

Sent Boom the info:

Name
Address
Phone
e-mail

and e-bay user id

MICHAELDIXON

Boom,
Info has been sent. Thanks for your dedication to this forum!
Mike

dcamp78

Boom,

I might be a good idea to have everyone include their Ebay ID so that we can look at their Feedback scores there as well.
(if you don't have an Ebay account, say so when giving Boom your personal info)

cullenbryant

pm sent with personal info included

cullenbryant

Boom,
your ideas look good to me. I'm ready to jump in again, all my swap experiences
have been very positive. thanks for running this thing.

TorinoCobra71

PM Sent.....



TorinoCobra71

MORGANHUNTER2

.


the end...

ttxp

No doubt what I type here will be the subject of at least a few flames?

This has appeared to get out of hand, the occasional member has had significant problems, no doubt. In every transaction involving the purchase of something by mail, eBay, private transactions between forum members, there is risk. There will always be risk. There is little way to avoid it.

"Personal, verifiable information" sounds good, means little.

OK, so you have a phone number and an address.

"The INSIDER's ID will oviously be kept secret for good reason."

Secret shopper or secret police, take your choice?

"RULES (KISS - Keep it Simple Stupid)"

Already appears far from that?

"POSTING DELIVERY CONFIRMATION NUMBERS"

Proves what? A box of day old newspapers was mailed, those postal numbers also have no meaning if I mail Aunt Hilda a package and use that set of numbers, it shows an item has been posted, if my intent has been dishonest, no threat anyway.

"KEEPING OF A REGISTRY AND INSTITUTING A MEMBER RATING SYSTEM."

OK, so someone has three successful transactions before they earn trust and then flake in a transaction and mail that trackable box to Aunt Hilda, instead of the secret police shopper.

"I like the idea of a "Coin Bank"

And who is watching the banker? In the real world, the banker is watched by the FDIC and the Treasury Department.

"I WILL NOT HESITATE to personally see to it that anyone who steals is prosecuted to the fullest because screwing around with the mail across state boundaries, especially involving THEFT, IS A FELONY FEDERAL RAP."

It is not in the hands of a third party, the person so wronged files a complaint, it requires no middle person? Besides, once that box of newspapers is delivered, there is little opportunity to prove a crime has been committed? A complaint and successful inditement are two different matters.

"I WANT and ASK for EVERYONE's personal, verifiable information (via PM) and it will be kept by ME and those that will work in conjunction with me to see to it that things are run smoothly and correctly around here from now on"

You better have a notarized signed hold harmless agreement that absolves you of personal liability if anything does go wrong? They can come after you or the "official club." Notwithstanding, the PCGS website owner to allow a club to be formed where attempts at prosecution by yourself or the secret shopper police will be made in violation of written rules and protocols. PCGS will not allow such a club, ask?

A surety bond may help to answer some of the aforementioned liabilities, but not all.

Its one thing to have a swap agreement between consenting adults, everything else I have read here is nothing but a huge liability for others. Unless of course you trust that others won't hold yourself or the secret shopper police from lawsuit, or drag PCGS into it if something is said or done that could be considered defamation, personal opinions are one thing, a "Clubs mandate" is something different.

Go ahead, flame away. This is all a bit overboard and will backfire badly on someone. If you don't trust two adults to carry through with a transaction, would you trust those individuals not to sue you, the secret police or PCGS if something is done that they believe wrongs them?

ajia

PM sent with personal info as requested.

DocMortar

"PM sent with personal info as requested."

BigJohnD

Boom,

Personal info sent as requested.

Guys, I couldn't agree with boom more. This is supposed to be a fun and positive experience for everyone involved. We're all adults and there is absolutely no reason for any garbage. Simple rules. Nobody is being asked to do anything other than what should be expected. This has always been a great experience for me and I think many others. Try not to be the kid who peed in the pool.

Regards,

John

Millertime

PM sent with personal info and some comments.

Millertime

p8nt

I check into this forum every couple of days to see whats happening and to read the latest news.. While it is sad that adults can't live up to their agreements and short-change each other (knowingly or unknowingly) and it sucks being on the receiving end of a scam (it's happened to me too) I'll admit that it is quite entertaining reading all of the posts.

Ajia and I have swapped a few times and everytime it has been fun and fair (I hope the same is felt on the other side of the table). I enjoy swapping and have thought about signing up in one of these public swaps, but the chaos and ever-changing rules, not to mention the abundance of requirements, turn me away from that. I know as it is right now that I probably won't be signing up for any swaps because there are too many demands. Don't you guys think this is a bit overboard?

Boom

All info sent has thus far been duly recorded. p8nt, if you have better ideas, fire away. I'M LISTENING.

There actually are no major changes or requirements etched in stone yet other than giving ME verifiable information and the posting of Delivery Confirmation numbers. This is difficult for you Ben? The coin escrow is a proposal on the floor, to be considered for everyones' protection.

As for you ttxp, while I do appreciate your time, effort and energy, suppose you channel it in a positive direction and look for solutions. You have NOT taken part in any swap nor have you submitted the requested info therefore at this juncture you, Carolyn, are not a factor and have no say-so, whatsoever.

If you want in, kindly submit the requested info as everyone else has and you will then be considered.

As for who watches ME, I am the One that suggested people work WITH me. It would also serve you quite well to know that I run a successful Christmas Charity each and every year, right here, in the Names of ALL Numismatists.

I am attempting to make this as simple & efficient as possible. With all due respect, if YOU do not care for the proposed guidelines, either think of better ones or kindly show yourself out.

1- COMMON SENSE
2- COMMUNICATION
3- COURTESY

IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT ACTUALLY.

Best to all,

BOOM

p8nt

<< <i>All info sent has thus far been duly recorded. p8nt, if you have better ideas, fire away. I'M LISTENING.

There actually are no major changes or requirements etched in stone yet other than giving ME verifiable information and the posting of Delivery Confirmation numbers. This is difficult for you Ben? The coin escrow is a proposal on the floor, to be considered for everyones' protection. >>



It's not difficult and I suppose it really isn't that big of a deal, it just seems like it would be unnecessary. However that point has been proven wrong so I am going to shut up and go back to reading

eyoung429

Gave my info to Boom (just moved and changed everything!!)

I will be a continuing sponsor and supporter to the swaps....

Numismatist American Regional Coin Swappers.....ie....N.A.R.C.S

Ya screw up and you will be ratted to the world!!!!

ajia

Ben,

It has absolutely been a pleasure trading with you.

Here's a bit of my obsernations....nothing not already stated by Boom, just reworded.......

1- COMMUNICATION- An agreed upon amount will be made between swappers as well as HOW the figures are arrived at.
So many times value amount is agreed upon, but not how to figure these values. Price dealers are charging? PCGS (or some other magazine/online) guide? Online Auctions?
Make an agreement beforehand! Be prepared though if you pick value guides that MANY PR69DCAM are way overpriced.

2- POSTING DELIVERY CONFIRMATION NUMBERS is no longer an option. IT WILL BE DONE HERE, PUBLICLY BY ALL.
Delivery Confirmation is FREE if you send a package Priority shipping if you print the label online. If you want to ship 1st class the package should be over 3/4" thick. I understand you can send 1st class with delivery confirmation sent via Paypal, can you also do this directly from www.USPS.com??

3- PUBLICLY DECLARING how your respective swaps went upon culmination. No one is to DO anything with what is sent until both members are satisfied AND IS STATED SO PUBLICLY.
Agree....to a point. There should be a time limit (IMO) that a swapper would need to wait before he could consider the swap culminated.
Even though we don't like to think sheet happens, it does.......isn't that why we're were we are?
Since we will be sending del. conf. when we send the packages, we all should know that the coins were sent. If after (2 weeks?) there is no responce yea or nay on the swap, it should be considered a completed swap.....what say all of you?

4- NOT PLACING unreal demands on your mate. Treat each other with dignity and respect. This is NOT a dump your undesirables on somebody club. Treat your mate as you would like to be treated.
Personally I think you should know what you have to swap, and NOT have any preconceived ideas on what you want.
This shouldn't be a 'go buy me a coin worth $XX' & shouldn't be 'I'll go buy you the coin(s) you want'
Why swap for a coin you want if you're going to go out & buy another with the same value?
The coins we swap should be nice coins that don't fit into our collection. Maybe an upgraded coin (but still a nice one), wrong TPG, or you no longer collect that series.

5- KEEPING OF A REGISTRY AND INSTITUTING A MEMBER RATING SYSTEM. If you're problematic, you're outta here.
Public or Private? Some brainstorming needed me thinks.

6- INSURING YOUR ITEMS against being LOST or Stolen by the evil, Phantom Mail Carrier.
Delivery Confirmation AND Insurance? If it's a $50 swap, adding another $10 doesn't make much sense (to me).
Higher value swaps, absolutely. Just use your common sense.

I would also ask we think about same type swap.....raw coins for raw coins; slabbed coins for slabbed coins (those other than PCGS, NGC, ANACS, possibly ICG will be considered raw). When we sign up for a swap the type wanted should be stated, i.e. "I'm in. Have raw coins to swap"

ttxp

Maybe I am the Devils advocate. Or maybe your just shooting the messenger? Although people can be burned in a trade, some things are better left as they are. My only suggestion. People take it upon themself to send a small coin gift to someone who is ripped off. If people made such an offer, heck, let someone rip me off, I would probably like more what members who felt sorry for me sent. That's simple, very simple. (KISS)




<< <i>therefore at this juncture you, Carolyn, are not a factor and have no say-so, whatsoever. >>



Having not participated in a swap does not diminish my ability to offer feedback on the dissertation of suggestions. Nor does it invalidate the things I said. I am quite capable of suggesting my opinion as your opinion also matters little to me to validate or invalidate what it is I commented on.



<< <i>I run a successful Christmas Charity each and every year, right here, in the Names of ALL Numismatists. >>



However running a Christmas Charity does however shed tremendous credibility, as that makes you or anyone else who does same above reproach, absolutely. Sorry for my inability to see that? I commend you on your consideration for all Numismatists. I am sorry for my comment.


The suggestions I have read carry inherent liabilities for you and any who take on CO-responsibilities to guarantee
no abuse of a quasi contractual agreement in coin swaps. The idea of anyone holding any coins or monies is so full of liabilities as to be absurd. That person would be acting as a Fiduciary Agent on one level or another and would be susceptible to all manner of accusation for impropriety.

I had read earlier that someone suggested sending coins for another to hold. Sounds logical, what if the person sent a certified dime for deposit and demanded their gold coin back later? Or my $10.00 deposit and my expectations that you won't be robbed, drop dead, go bankrupt or whatever.

I am less worried about someone stealing $300.00 in deposits than of the exposure that exists to that person doing so. That is often called holding money in trust. Banks have oversight, and both serve and hold accountable people with other peoples money. Oversight can also protect you.

A recent member of this forum was quite late in completing his trade for whatever reason, sad but true. The forum went naturally negative and quite vocal against this, however they did so as individual forum members and not represented by a "club."



<< <i>"The INSIDER's ID will oviously be kept secret for good reason." >>



That's a good one, your idea?

That's good for the trader so wronged as I then have a reasonable expectation that my trade is somewhat safe, you after all do have security measures in place? Hopefully, the secret shopper makes no inaccurate claim of fraud against another? Did you take my suggestion and bounce these ideas with the sponsor of these forums? I rather doubt it. Even if they (PCGS) claim in their TOS for users of these boards that they are held harmless for any transgressions, that in no way is legally binding. The courts have ruled that blanket disclaimers of liability are worthless.

Go ahead, as a club or officer of an "almost sorta club" start demanding justice or inciting some form of board member instigation towards a member for failure to follow through according to the clubs web site protocol, and without a written contactual agreement, and legally sustainable evidence handled by a duly authorized person, PCGS will pay for it in a quiet settlement. After all it was allowed on their boards. Board monitors exist for a reason?

Fiduciary agents and the owners of these boards are all covered by insurance for valid reason, people when angry start pointing fingers and looking for someone else to blame. As I said in my prior thread, an insurance bond would perhaps cover some of these areas, an errors and omissions policy might cover others, you need an attorney to offer written comment?

Lets see, I forget to add tracking to my package, three weeks pass and although I say it was mailed, no one quite believes me, but I was smart enough to insure it, but misplaced the receipt, cool, no evidence of that per se that is verifiable on the web. People start ranting and hanging out the noose, insults fly, all is documented on this site (forever). Package is delivered 7 weeks late, signed for and I can then prove it. That's quite the lawsuit. And while the person expecting the package may be able to slide on some off color comments, the 3rd party person waving the noose, and the owner of the forum where I was raked across the coals unjustly better have an insurance agent on hold.



<< <i>either think of better ones or kindly show yourself out. >>



And while I have yet to offer counter-suggestions, because I don't see it your way and you don't like hearing what it is I have written, that is hardly reason to show myself out? Grow up.


If everyone played by the rules, then there would never have been a need to have this thread in the first place. However, because people don't play fair, I would be a little paranoid that something could go wrong and open up some liability when someone insulted turns out to be guilty by fire for nothing. If Ray/Kingpin can prove that he in fact did mail a package prior to the noose being set, he could sue, it would take a lawyer to better focus the direction, but C/U would be one of them. The negative PR for the board owner would cost more than to just settle the matter.


Given I am not a lawyer, I can be criticized on many, many points, but a lawyer would no doubt say that some of what was mentioned here is possible and that if only one of these points is valid, a potential exists for a serious headache for someone.

Sorry if my opinion bothers you Boom, it is after all my opinion. If you recall, I did contact you a while back for information related to joining a swap but held off jumping in till I felt I had something reasonable to offer, obviously playing by the rules of what I believed would be others expectations. So my interest should represent my motivation for what seems like fun, so I obviously support the concept of swaps. One comment you made does disturb me directly.




<< <i>If you want in, kindly submit the requested info as everyone else has and you will then be considered. >>



If you did openly refuse someone, based on conjecture, I believe they could sue you quite easily for discrimination, be it unfounded or not, its up to a jury if its founded. We live in a litigant society, my points above just consider that.

Ajia, you have made some calm, well though out suggestions.

TheKidCollector1991

All Personal detail sent!

Thanks again BOOM!

TKC!

MORGANHUNTER2

<< Given I am not a lawyer, I can be criticized on many, many points, but a lawyer would no doubt say that some of what was mentioned here is possible and that if only one of these points is valid, a potential exists for a serious headache for someone.>>


From the conjecture of your post, ttxp(Carol), you are either a law student just in the beginning of contract law or you work for an attorney and get very winded.

If you have not participated in any swaps that Boom has run over thelast 2 years I do believe he has the right to express his opinion as he has to you- provide the information that is requested and become a member of the swap- a SIMPLE SOLUTION. If you do not wish to participate- then offer your suggestions in a PM to him- seeing this on the board makes me NOT want to play in htis anymore.

In all reality this is getting out of hand- some rules do need to be defined and set, some information needs to be given to one person and that person should be noted as the Secretary or Sgt. at Arms- a very simple solution.

As for how the swap itself goes- IT IS BETWEEN THE @ PARTIES CONJOINED FOR THE SWAP.
SET YOUR RULES AS SUCH.

I have the right to disagree on a few things, but when all this crap settles down, maybe I'll get involved more.

WE have yet to agree upon a name for the club- that should be 1st PRIORITY.

THE UGLY REDHEADED STEPCHILD COIN SWAPPERS SOCIETY..

enough- it's almost time for a LABOUR DAY SWAP.

ttxp

<< <i>I do believe he has the right to express his opinion >>


Yes, he does, as do I, although it was pointed out I did not?

I shall be quiet on the matter after these last comments, I do honestly believe many things got way out of hand on the last swap gone bad.

Something occurred during that last trade issue that has me concerned about significant liabilities for well intentioned folks, when I read all other club rules being considered that could backfire badly, I became long winded as you mention.

I will follow this clubs development, when the rules are established, I will file my request for approval to join.

Fortunately for me thus far, when I have received higher value coins on approval from other members, or when I have sent checks firsthand, all went well as expected. Those transactions were built on nothing more than word, that makes this board and its members special.

I apologize to all and especially to Boom for my past dissertations.

Carol

Boom

OK, so far, so good. I have now a record of all parties that willingly complied by sending the requested information.

Basically, at this point in time, nothing has really changed except for the fact that I need a Master list of all swappers' info so that #1- I can verify that they are who they say they are #2- It affords me a way to contact people should I need to.

Got to get off here for now. I just got this box right and there's a storm coming.

friend

PM sent with requested personal info. Thank you Boom you cleard up some things I had on my mind.

UncleWiggly

Boom, I'd be happy to be the Coin Bank guy. Just let me know when, what and how many people are swapping and I'll have stuff ready to go in case something goes haywire.



Jerry

Boom

Thank you Jerry.

mojoman

Boom you should have my info. if not I will resend it.
One thing that should be pointed out AGAIN, is do not qoute PCGS price guide prices for RAW coins or coins certified by someone other than PCGS and it is just that, a guide. MoJo

asnovell

Pm sent, Thanks!

Boom

Thanks for responding, all. Yet more work and no rest for the weary. I'll have to re-write all this info and create a file.