1921 Proof Morgan?

tizofthe

I was in an Antique shop near my hourse today and asked if they ahd any old coins for sale. the guy said yes two but one is a little tarnished. He had in in a zip lock bag and when I ttok it out I about feel over. It is a 1921 P Morgan that has become toned a rust color but the amazing thing about it is it looks like a proof? Thr obverse is not as proof like as the reverse but it is still very nice. If you tilt it the right way and hold any color next to it you can see it shine though the rust color toning. I would say it is a MS60 to 61. Has anyone heard of a 1921 proof?

ABC123

Chapman Proof ?

ar18

Zerbe 1921 proof's

coinguy1

There are two types of Proof 1921 Morgan Dollars (Chapman Proof and Zerbe Proof) but there are far more PL examples. Nothing in the information provided gives reason to think it was anything other than a PL business strike.

tizofthe

What is that. I amy be able to supply pictures if that will help?

tizofthe

What type of info do you need? I would like to know what type of proof it is. I am sure it was worth the 10.00?

coinguy1

<< <i>What type of info do you need? I would like to know what type of proof it is. I am sure it was worth the 10.00? >>

We'd need to see the coin in hand.

TomB

Antique shop=Not a proof

tizofthe

It would in my area. I live in a Yuppy Fishing harbor in washington state with nothing but Retired people and Mcrosoft people. This owner has no clue to coins. It came in a box from an estate when he purchased. The other was a peace dollar 1922 in AU condition. Paid 10.00 for the Morgan and 7.00 for the peace. I think it was a pretty good find. This has to be a Proof of some kind. No it has not been cleaned.

coinguy1

<<This has to be a Proof of some kind>>

No, it does not - don't kid yourself. There are very few proofs and many PL business strikes. Odds are dramatically against it being a Proof, whether the surfaces are PL or not.

Coxe

<< <i>It would in my area. I live in a Yuppy Fishing harbor in washington state with nothing but Retired people and Mcrosoft people. This owner has no clue to coins. It came in a box from an estate when he purchased. The other was a peace dollar 1922 in AU condition. Paid 10.00 for the Morgan and 7.00 for the peace. I think it was a pretty good find. This has to be a Proof of some kind. No it has not been cleaned. >>



When did you get two 90% silver dollars for $17? If recently enough, you bought them for less than melt. Actually, two silver dollars for $17 in the past decade in any condition wouldn't anything to fuss about. Everything beyond that is extra gravy. VAM the two of them. For those dates, it can be a maddening task though.

Bryan1315

I would have to agree that the chances are far better of it being a prooflike than it being a proof, although there are some Proof coins out there, they didn't make them in 1921 like they did the other dates, they just made a handful for zerbe and chapman and thats it. It could be made with the zerbe dies and still not be a proof because it would have been made for circulation so it would be a business strike coin

RWB

Based on newer research there are three "versions" of what many call a 1921 Morgan "proof."

1. The original Morgan design hubs were destroyed in 1910 under the general destruction of pattern and obsolete coin hubs and dies ordered by Director Andrew. To accommodate new production of silver dollars from metal purchased after WW-I (Pitman Act silver), the mint made new hubs from an existing coin also reducing the relief and making other alterations to the design (none of them for the better). The new version had nearly flat fields which allowed the dies to be basined to a uniform radius. Basining of dies, also gave them a polish that lasts for a few dozen to a few hundred coins. These are "proof-like" early strikes from new dies and represent most of the coins collectors mistake as "proofs."

2. A small quantity - possibly 20 or so - proof-like pieces were struck from new dies and individually caught on a cotton towel by mint cabinet curator T. Louis Comparette in May 1921. Some of these coins are deceptively close to proof quality except for the rims and slightly less sharp reeding. One example is in the Mitchelson Collection and is a good match for the best of the so-called "Zerbe" proofs. (Note that no proof 1921 dollars were struck for Farran Zerbe – who lived in San Francisco in 1921. The "Zerbe" story is an invention to sell some coins.)

3. In May 1922 Comparette sent out another batch of what he called "semi-proofs." Comparing them to the ones he sent the previous May, Comparette said:

"While these are much finer specimens and struck on a medal press, yet they are not in strict sense of the word proofs, though not a whit inferior."

These coins have the square rims and polished fields typical of 1878-1904 Morgan proofs, and although the surface mirror is not as good as the old examples (probably due to only the dies being polished), these are legitimately called "proof" coins. These are commonly called "Chapman proofs" although there is no substantiation to the tale of them being struck for Henry Chapman. The Philadelphia dealer may have acquired some examples from Comparette, however.

Hope this will be of interest. The details and rest of the story will be in "Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915" available in late 2007.

1921obsession

That is downright fascinating, RWB. What, then, of the "So-called Zerbe" die, known as VAM-47? Does it therefore just become another ordinary VAM?

RWB

Wouldn't know. That's for VAM enthusiasts to figure out. One might call a nice proof-like 1921-S a "Zerbe proof-like"if one wanted a cute but inaccurate handle by which to market a roll or two of these....

1921obsession

<< <i>Wouldn't know. That's for VAM enthusiasts to figure out. One might call a nice proof-like 1921-S a "Zerbe proof-like"if one wanted a cute but inaccurate handle by which to market a roll or two of these.... >>



That would be an Ebay idea.

I've always wondered about the Zerbe dies, anyways - I have an example, it meets the exact definitions of VAM-47 and the Zerbe die markers, but it's Infrequently Reeded......

messydesk

The "so-called Zerbe dies" moniker is often attached to a 1921 Morgan just because it is a D1 reverse (17 berries, scratches in top arrowhead). Up until VAM 47 was designated, the "Zerbe die" coins would have been cataloged as VAM 1, although it was known what the subtle die characteristics of the Zerbe "proofs" were. VAM 47 was designated after careful study of these coins of higher quality than normal that had long been collected as Zerbe proofs and for the sake of identifying later business strikes made after the prooflike attributes of the dies had faded. It also provides a definitive set of diagnostics that precludes other D1 reverse 1921 Morgans from being legitimately called "Zerbe die" coins. All of this irrespective of the fact that Zerbe had nothing to do with these.

morgannut2

There are so-called Zerb Proofs with the supposted paper work. Genarally the cins are well struck and characterised by die polish marks in the fields, along with ticks.small abrasions die to mint mistratment. The dies, which from he bought these so-called proofs, are distiguished by a die polish line obverse inside the second U of "Unum", and the reverse will have a slightly doubled line own the "t" of United., It extends down the right side of the shaft to the lower cross of the "t" and is then perpendular to the crossing lower shaft line. OF coarse, other 21P Morgans are obviously PL too, but these lack the die characterists indications. Many with the right die states are either a true Zerbe Maketed "proof", or more often made from the same die pair later. The later ones lack full 4" prooflike mirrors in most cases. The later 1921-P stikes fom used Zerbe dies may arely also show a die crack connecting the 9 and the 2 of the date.

morgannut2

Why doesn't someone pst a Vam 47 to evaluate the die states/pairs??. Or is there an image online?? The mint probablly gave Zerbe a bunch of 1921-P's off some polished dies--but historically he did market them as his idea of the proofs.

Longacre

<< <i>Based on newer research there are three "versions" of what many call a 1921 Morgan "proof."

1. The original Morgan design hubs were destroyed in 1910 under the general destruction of pattern and obsolete coin hubs and dies ordered by Director Andrew. To accommodate new production of silver dollars from metal purchased after WW-I (Pitman Act silver), the mint made new hubs from an existing coin also reducing the relief and making other alterations to the design (none of them for the better). The new version had nearly flat fields which allowed the dies to be basined to a uniform radius. Basining of dies, also gave them a polish that lasts for a few dozen to a few hundred coins. These are "proof-like" early strikes from new dies and represent most of the coins collectors mistake as "proofs."

2. A small quantity - possibly 20 or so - proof-like pieces were struck from new dies and individually caught on a cotton towel by mint cabinet curator T. Louis Comparette in May 1921. Some of these coins are deceptively close to proof quality except for the rims and slightly less sharp reeding. One example is in the Mitchelson Collection and is a good match for the best of the so-called "Zerbe" proofs. (Note that no proof 1921 dollars were struck for Farran Zerbe – who lived in San Francisco in 1921. The "Zerbe" story is an invention to sell some coins.)

3. In May 1922 Comparette sent out another batch of what he called "semi-proofs." Comparing them to the ones he sent the previous May, Comparette said:

"While these are much finer specimens and struck on a medal press, yet they are not in strict sense of the word proofs, though not a whit inferior."

These coins have the square rims and polished fields typical of 1878-1904 Morgan proofs, and although the surface mirror is not as good as the old examples (probably due to only the dies being polished), these are legitimately called "proof" coins. These are commonly called "Chapman proofs" although there is no substantiation to the tale of them being struck for Henry Chapman. The Philadelphia dealer may have acquired some examples from Comparette, however.

Hope this will be of interest. The details and rest of the story will be in "Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915" available in late 2007. >>




Your answers are incredible.

seateddime

2 kinds of 21 proofs - rare

PL's are rare

CarlWohlforth

That is interesting stuff RWB! I'm looking forward to reading more...

tiz: some better struck coins with reflective fields often confuse people into thinking they have proofs. Some Seated coins of the late 1800s are very deceptive. It is doubtful you have a proof 1921 Morgan. That's OK, it is also doubtful I hold a winning lottery ticket.

morgannut2

If no one else wants to state the obvious, the percentage chances are you bought 2 common Morgans that were "whizzed" (polished with a wire brush) in the 1950-60's and sold to suckers
in telephone scams as proofs. By now most of these have taken on a darker--sometimes bluish brown
tone from oxidation. At $17, that's the percentages---but still a photo here would give you an idea.

RWB

It might prove informative for someone - maybe a VAM specialist - to locate the origin of the "Zerbe proof" moniker, and any contemporary documentation relating to it.

In searching all of the 1920-22 Mint archives for material relating to the 1921 Morgan and 1921 Peace dollars, I saw nothing relating to Zerbe. (The Peace dollar info is in "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921.") Archive files include the occasional letter from one coin dealer or another asking for mintage figures or enclosing their current price list, and collector letters asking about availability of new coins.

From an economic point of view, the Treasury's interest was in replacing the silver dollars melted under the Pittman Act with new coins made from domestic silver.

MikeKing

I ditto what Carl said. Thanks RWB and Morgannut2. This has become a great post!

1921obsession

It figures. All this time I've spent looking for a nice PL Zerbe Morgan, I finally find one (which was_not, as I previously thought, Infrequently Reeded - I was just Infrequently Observant), and it isn't. A Zerbe, that is. Typical luck for me. Well, I have this VAM-47 Something, it's nicely PL, maybe DMPL, it's real shiny and I like it.

RWB

...and that you get pleasure from owing it and discussing the coin is what collecting is all about.