Home PCGS Set Registry Forum

Fullstep Jefferson guys - a question

Howdy Gents.

My last couple of fullstep submittals to PCGS
have been graded a little "tight".

Any one else have similar experience
and or advice?

Regards, Steve.

Comments

  • you need to get used to it.
  • pontiacinfpontiacinf Posts: 8,915 ✭✭


    << <i>you need to get used to it. >>



    i couldnt have said that betterimage
    image

    Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
  • Yes, I suppose I will have to get used to it.

    Just a little xtra frustrating in this full step series,
    since there is no other TPG with a market to speak of.

    Regards, Steve.

  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615
    The deal with PCGS and full steps, really depends on the date but you can be certain, if you think its a liner, well then PCGS will not grade it full step. this has not always been the case, a few years ago you could slide stuff through but not today. It better be All there and they will neg a complete legit FS coin that is weak, full steps by 99.9999% of Jeff collectors but a weakness in a spot and neg it. Its rather frustrating becasue there is so much PCGS crap floating out in the market from the good ole days to make you vomit with some of the coin that get the reject button.

  • So, I take it that PCGS graders are now using a
    16x Magnifying glass with a critical eye, as standard
    grading procedure for fullsteps.

    Where as a couple years back they were using
    a lower power glass.

    Is this perhaps the difference?

    Regards, Steve.
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm inclined to say that as prices for key coins have skyrocketed, it's more a case of graders now being dead serious (and cautious) about what they're doing when Jeffs come across their desks.
    When in doubt, don't.
  • Back in the good ole days (80's and 90's)
    we use to have some disagreements among the
    hardcore fullsteppers sometimes, about what was
    fullstep and what was not.

    Usually it came down to some of the guys were in
    the habit of using a 8X glass and some of the guys
    were in the habit of using the big 16X glass.

    You just see more problems with the big 16X than
    you do with the 8X glass. And the guys that
    used the 16X always seemed to have nickels with
    screaming bold steps, but perhaps a little lower
    mint state grade.

    Of course it was no huge deal money wise then.
    The TPG were avoiding all the moderns, and
    marketing themselves as above all that cheap
    modern crap.

    But, once PCGS graders start to use the 16X,
    it's hard to imagine them going back to an 8X.

    Regards, Steve.
  • PCGS has certainly been inconsistent over the years with their full step designation. My guess is that the $ they are paying out out for grade review is forcing them to be more conservative. Ultimately it is probably a very good event for full step collectors.
    (The Corso Collection) Always looking for high quality proof and full step Jeffersons - email me with details

    My Jefferson Full Step Variety Set (1938 - Current)

    My Jefferson Proof Variety Set (1938 - Current)
  • Oh gosh ... there's no doubt that the 60-D so-called full stepper which I bought to take off the market is the cause of PCGS's tightening. They got a few bucks for certifying the coin and then they did the right thing and paid out about $10,000 to me to reholder the coin non-full steps.

    That's a bitter pill to swallow. But from what you say, nicknut12, they've learned their lesson from it well. It will be a long time before they "give" a marginal full-stepper the benefit of the doubt again. If they're attributing it as a full stepper these days, you can bet it's a real one.

    And I welcome that.

    Best wishes,


    Just Having Fun
    Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
  • Well, I have not actually seen the infamous 60-D.

    But judging from all the noise on the boards about it.
    I would guess that the coin would appear to be non fullstep
    with an 8X glass and with a 16X glass and with the naked eye.

    The thing is, if you start grading the fullsteppers with
    a 16X glass and a very critical eye. Then 80%
    of the coins currently in PCGS FS holders would not
    qualify for FS.

    The dates in the 1951-1970 era always seem to
    have steps that are never quite perfect. So in those years
    perhaps all of the PCGS FS coins would be non FS.

    The math is just off the charts.

    Regards, Steve.
  • Dear Nick Nut 12:

    The issue with the 1960-D was never one of an 8 power lens versus 16 power. I recently re-examined the coin out here in Asia, and I really don't think you, or any other full-step fanatic, would have given that a full step designation. It was a clear, obvious mistake.

    Second, you write ...

    "The thing is, if you start grading the fullsteppers with
    a 16X glass and a very critical eye. Then 80%
    of the coins currently in PCGS FS holders would not
    qualify for FS.

    "The dates in the 1951-1970 era always seem to
    have steps that are never quite perfect. So in those years
    perhaps all of the PCGS FS coins would be non FS."


    I'm not sure about a 8 power versus 16 power loupe; that's a two-edged sword. A grader can see a step pass through with a high power loupe that he might miss with a lower grade loupe.

    But in any case, I saw a lot of PCGS full steppers and I think the 80% figure is way, way too high. From my own experience, I'd say that at most 10% of the coins currently in PCGS Full Step holders don't deserve the designation.

    As I saw it back then when I was actively putting these coins aside for my collection, many of them were judgement calls. I'd see Jeff's designated FUll Steps that had a nick that almost -- but not quite --blocked the steps. From some angles, it looked like the line blocked the steps, but at others, you could see the full step. Was that a full stepper? I never really knew, but what I decided to do with coins like these, that were on the margin, was this: I would look at the 6th step. If the coin had an extra half step for me, then it was a go. But if it didn't, I'd probably let it go.

    One last thought about this. What PCGS is doing by tightening the screws on the Full Steppers is wonderful for the Jefferson collectors. For a while, I started collecting the Franklin Halves in Full Bell lines. I find the Franklins very attractive and when well struck, they can be dazzlers. The Full Bell Lines being a metaphor for well struck.

    Well I soon found that the PCGS designations for Full Bell Lines were absurd. Coins that imho weren't even close got the designation. So I couldn't buy sight unseen, and since I live in Asia, I couldn't buy the Franklins at all. So I cleared out of Franklins entirely. Now, with PCGS having tightened up on the Full Steppers, that sort of problem for Jefferson collectors. So again, PCGS tightening up the screws on Full Steps is a boon to collectors.

    Best wishes for tons of success with your full steppers.

    Just Having Fun



    Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,342 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Well, I have not actually seen the infamous 60-D.

    But judging from all the noise on the boards about it.
    I would guess that the coin would appear to be non fullstep
    with an 8X glass and with a 16X glass and with the naked eye.

    The thing is, if you start grading the fullsteppers with
    a 16X glass and a very critical eye. Then 80%
    of the coins currently in PCGS FS holders would not
    qualify for FS.

    The dates in the 1951-1970 era always seem to
    have steps that are never quite perfect. So in those years
    perhaps all of the PCGS FS coins would be non FS.

    The math is just off the charts.

    Regards, Steve. >>



    Oh, I cry myself to sleep every night because my 1960-D does not have full steps! image
    image

    Yeah right! image

    Leo image

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • And another good point brought by Leo.

    Isn't that 60-D a desirable and valuable coin?
    Much like justhavingfun's 60-D.

    No, they are not 5 steppers worth $50,000.
    But they are high quality 4 steppers,
    and couldn't they be graded as such?
    And isn't that a very rare coin?

    There are only a dozen or so dates that might
    be worth slabbing as 4 steppers, but why can't
    PCGS do that?

    And why can't PCGS recognize that 6 steppers
    are the ultimate quality and slab those too?

    Aren't 6 steppers far more desireable than a
    5 stepper? I've always thought so. The chase for
    high quality 6 steppers was always the laser focus
    of my collecting of Jefferson's back in the olde days.

    Regards, Steve.
  • And why can't PCGS recognize that 6 steppers are the ultimate quality and slab those too?

    I asked that question to David Hall over 1 year ago his reponse was not enough collector interest in designating 6 step coins. NGC clearly has the lead here.

    BTW I totally agree that collecting 6 steps with full strikes is the ultimate Jefferson pursuit.

    Frank
    (The Corso Collection) Always looking for high quality proof and full step Jeffersons - email me with details

    My Jefferson Full Step Variety Set (1938 - Current)

    My Jefferson Proof Variety Set (1938 - Current)
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    jhf, I have some lower value full steps and full bell lines as well that just don't look complete to me




    it sure is frustrating to use them as examples and have half come back as not full steps






    I think in a Q&A answer once homerunhall said something like liners may get a 65FS or a 66


    I have noticed the same thing in my proof dimes
    a liner may get 67CAM or 68



    someone once said to send back in the liners with higher grade for designation review,
    not sure if that works or not (except I am sure it costs more money)

  • Nice to meet you, sinin 1, and yes, you're right, some liners will get 66 NOT FBL or 65 FBL. Ditto for the Jeffersons, where some will 66 NOT Full Steps or 65 Full Steps.

    It's that guarantee thing again. The 65 FS and 66 Not Full Steps are common $1,500 coins. Their exposure under their guarantee is minimal. But when they give the coin 66 Full Steps, which is a pop 1, they've created a monster coin which could go for $5,000 to $25,000. And then their guarantee exposes them. So they're understandably very reluctant to create those 66 Full steppers which you're talking about.

    That's also why the third party grading services are even talking about the 100 grading system. There's no collector demand for it. But the tpg services want it -- both for the business it will drum up, and for the opportunity to subtely downgrade coins without having to payoff on the guarantee.

    Best wishes,


    Just Having Fun
    Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
  • JHF....

    I've always thought that the one basic flaw in the TPG business
    model was: That they are basically in the business of putting themselves
    out of business.

    That's why I collected/dealt in the fullsteppers back in the 80's/90's.
    I loved old coins, but I also thought that sooner or later the TPG would
    get around to the fullsteppers. It just took them a lot longer than I had
    thought it might.

    Regards, Steve.
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,342 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>And another good point brought by Leo.

    Isn't that 60-D a desirable and valuable coin?
    Much like justhavingfun's 60-D.

    No, they are not 5 steppers worth $50,000.
    But they are high quality 4 steppers,
    and couldn't they be graded as such?
    And isn't that a very rare coin?

    There are only a dozen or so dates that might
    be worth slabbing as 4 steppers, but why can't
    PCGS do that?

    And why can't PCGS recognize that 6 steppers
    are the ultimate quality and slab those too?

    Aren't 6 steppers far more desireable than a
    5 stepper? I've always thought so. The chase for
    high quality 6 steppers was always the laser focus
    of my collecting of Jefferson's back in the olde days.

    Regards, Steve. >>



    Steve,

    Nothing has changed in the way true coin collectors collect these nickels.
    Here's one of those $20,000 ultimate 6 steppers! ANACS graded only two 6 steppers!
    image

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • Leo...

    Beautiful coin.
    Those six steppers just make my
    mouth water.

    When will PCGS start to recognize the
    KING of full step collecting? (six steppers)

    Maybe we can get Ray to post a picture of
    his beautiful six step 46-P ????

    Regards, Steve.
  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615
    Ahhh, 6 step coins ... here is a very tough issue in 5 steps much less 6. This has 6 steps.
    6 Step MS65FS 1968-S
  • Clack....

    Nice looking coin, but I cannot see the steps.

    It's only mouth watering good with a step close up.

    I would imagine a 68-S in a PCGS holder with a 6 step
    on the holder would be a five figure coin.

    Regards, Steve,
  • rayovacrayovac Posts: 192 ✭✭
    Steve,

    I wish I could take nice pictures of some of my 6 step coins and their steps. I have a number in PCGS holders I would like to do: 39P 66FS R40, 39S 65FS R40 PL, 40PD 67FS, 40S 66FS, 41P 66FS, 41D 67FS, 42T1 65FS, 42D 67FS, 42S 66FS, 43DS 67FS, 44P 65FS, 44D 67FS, 45P 66FS, 45D 67FS, 46PD 66FS, 47D 66FS, 48D 65FS, 49S 65FS, 57P 65FS, 58D 66FS, and 59P 65FS.

    I am still looking for 6 step coins for any R38 coins (38PDS/39PDS R38), 39D, 41S, 42P, 44S, 45S, 46S, 47PS, 48S, 49D, 50D, 51D, 57D, 58P and 59D. These dates I believe exist in 6 steps but I have not run into them yet........

    I think that the "tight" grading of FS nickels will only help those who collect and invest in them. I also see the "tight" grading as a signal to purchase the newly graded coins where ever possible. I am very picky about what coins I purchase in PCGS holders but have probably found more of the newly graded items to my standards than the older ones. Like always, buy the coin, not the holder.
    CS 65-Present FS Jefferson nickel set at myurl
    RayOverby
  • Ray showed me that 46-P at a recent show.
    Just a lovely coin. Fully struck, mostly mark free, lustrous.
    And screaming bold 6 steps just like a 41-D.

    I never would have thought there was a 46-P that
    existed in that condition.

    That's the thing about these 6 steppers.
    They are wondrous and mysterious. You can spend so much
    time/money/effort chasing the 5 steppers and then there is
    this whole other area of wonder.

    Some of these 6 steppers are million to one shots.

    Regards, Steve.
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Its rather frustrating becasue there is so much PCGS crap floating out in the market from the good ole days to make you vomit with some of the coin that get the reject button.

    this has become such a disgusting ocurrence that i posted about it at the US forum about a week ago(strangely, it received no replies and quickly sank to oblivion). i've all but removed myself from collecting Mint State coins, having sold all but a few of the more common issues, the 1938 PDS, some varieties and a few misc. coins. PCGS has flooded the market with FS designated coins which are junk with bridges and perhaps only four full steps. there's currently a 1950 graded PCGS MS65FS listed by Heritage which has an obvious mark under the third pillar and a nasty contact on the cheek.

    it's been fun, by i'm stayin' raw for now except for the absolute choicest or toughest coins.
  • HighReliefHighRelief Posts: 3,654 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PCGS has been really tight about grading full steps.
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,342 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Steve,

    I wish I could take nice pictures of some of my 6 step coins and their steps. I have a number in PCGS holders I would like to do: 39P 66FS R40, 39S 65FS R40 PL, 40PD 67FS, 40S 66FS, 41P 66FS, 41D 67FS, 42T1 65FS, 42D 67FS, 42S 66FS, 43DS 67FS, 44P 65FS, 44D 67FS, 45P 66FS, 45D 67FS, 46PD 66FS, 47D 66FS, 48D 65FS, 49S 65FS, 57P 65FS, 58D 66FS, and 59P 65FS.

    I am still looking for 6 step coins for any R38 coins (38PDS/39PDS R38), 39D, 41S, 42P, 44S, 45S, 46S, 47PS, 48S, 49D, 50D, 51D, 57D, 58P and 59D. These dates I believe exist in 6 steps but I have not run into them yet........

    I think that the "tight" grading of FS nickels will only help those who collect and invest in them. I also see the "tight" grading as a signal to purchase the newly graded coins where ever possible. I am very picky about what coins I purchase in PCGS holders but have probably found more of the newly graded items to my standards than the older ones. Like always, buy the coin, not the holder. >>



    Ray,

    I have most of the dates you mentioned in 6 except the 39P 66FS R40(know someone who does, ANACS had only a couple graded at one time), 39S 65FS R40 PL(close), 41-S with a nick, 43S 67FS (have one that's very close, nevadaman had one), 44P 65FS, 45P 66FS, 49S 65FS(Sisti's sold one years ago) I also have a 47-S and 50-D in 6. You shouldn't have any problems finding a 50-D, heck, NGC has certified only about 50 of them! image NGC really sucks when it comes to grading these nickels! I have a 38 proof with a thin 6th, almost had a 39 rev. of 38 proof in 6 that was lost in mail. I've heard there's a 53-D and 61-D in 6 and I too believe most of the coins you've mentioned are possible in 6. You've heard of an off-centered 53-S with 6 and seen my oc 49 with a near 6, I think these dates and others are possible is 6.

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • Leo.

    I've never actually seen a 50-D that has had
    6 step. I've had people tell me they are out there,
    I've had people tell me they are common.
    But, I've never actually seen one.
    And I've seen a lot of Jeffersons.

    I do have a few of the lesser known dates in
    6 step: 42-S, 49-D, 57-P, 57-D, 59-P, 77-P, 80-D, 83-P

    I have never seen: 41-S, 49-S, 50-D, 56-P, 58-P, 59-D
    (excluding very weak strikes)

    Regards, Steve.
  • rayovacrayovac Posts: 192 ✭✭
    I have owned 3-4 old NGC 1950D FS coins which are supposed to be 6 steps. None of them were close. I will continue to look. I also have several of the old NGC 1947D and 1939P FS nickels and none of them are 6 steps either.

    I too have looked at a lot of 1950D FS nickels and have not found a 6 step coin yet.
    CS 65-Present FS Jefferson nickel set at myurl
    RayOverby
  • clackamasclackamas Posts: 5,615
    I have an MS66FS 50-D with 6 steps. I have sold a few 65's with 6 as well.
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,342 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Leo.

    I've never actually seen a 50-D that has had
    6 step. I've had people tell me they are out there,
    I've had people tell me they are common.
    But, I've never actually seen one.
    And I've seen a lot of Jeffersons.

    I do have a few of the lesser known dates in
    6 step: 42-S, 49-D, 57-P, 57-D, 59-P, 77-P, 80-D, 83-P

    I have never seen: 41-S, 49-S, 50-D, 56-P, 58-P, 59-D
    (excluding very weak strikes)

    Regards, Steve. >>



    Steve,

    Look no further! You can see much of my collection in my profile or click on the Jefferson nickels link!
    You might have to do some navigating down the page to see the different groups of nickels I have posted.

    And don't let Ray know you have a 1949-D in 6!

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • Leo.

    By the way, though I have never actually seen a 6 step 50-D.
    I did indeed have an entire roll of 7 step 50-D's at one time.

    I presume they were die struck conterfeits. They looked just
    like a normal 50-D except for the abnormal xtra step.
    Although, the color of the coin was a little odd too.

    I resold the roll rather quickly after realizing what I had.
    Wish I had kept them now, they were a neat little oddity.
    But at the time, $240 for a roll of nickels was a lot of
    money to me.

    Regards, Steve.
Sign In or Register to comment.