Are there any "gay" FarSide/DarkSide coins?

FoundingFather

Are there any coins that depict, reference, or acknowledge homosexuality in some way?

This is not a joke - I look at coins as windows or tools to study history, from their metal content to their symbolism. Homosexuality is just another topic I am curious about in regard to seeing if coins can tell a little bit of that story as well.

coinkat

coins do not have sex...

ROBERTB

FoundingFather

I was thinkng some ancient coins might have some references.

coinkat

This should go to the open forum now... that is if it should even go there. I sincerely hope that all darksiders will choose to ignore this and not respond further because it clearly is not topical or within what should be discussed here. I am not against the 1st amendment, I just think that if I log into this forum, darkside coins should be the subject...and the direction of this thread seems to deal with issues that could and should be addressed elsewhere.

FoundingFather

Coinkat, your reaction is off to say the least. I am not familiar with foreign and ancient coins (at least not to a respectable degree) and so I am asking about any text or symbolism that exists on these coins which reference homosexuality. I am willing to bet such a thing exists in at least some of the ancient stuff, but I do not know.

I think you are over-reacting and injecting something into this thread that not appropriate or accurate. This thread is not about who likes or accepts homosexuality - it is about images or text on coins that reference it. Is that clearer to you now? Please reconsider.

Stork

I actually think this is a reasonable question. We often talk about themes and historical depictions on coins. Many coins and especially exonumia 'tell a story' or have political/religous/etc content or agendas. Think of some of the conders and Goetz medals for example.

FF--I can't think of anything in particular off the top of my head, although I have been known to post the occasional 'nekkid guy' when all the BBLs (bare breasted ladies) show up. They aren't exactly the topic you are asking about though...just guys with no clothes (St George anyone?).


Cathy

Numismatics

so far, I don't see one. But I love to see one.

FoundingFather

Thanks for the sincere reply, Stork! Studying coins in this way has always been my main motivating factor in collecting them - at least as an adult. I think I could run a decent "Founding of America" class just using the coins from that period (which is what I collect). Everything from the dies, the metal composition, the art, the contracts to mint them - so many things, all ad up to tell a great set of enlightening stories.

coinkat

FF:

I am not taking sides or over-reacting... I do not believe it is topical.


I think the dialog and answers that you may seek would be better served on a different forum... perhaps your time and energy would be better spend elsewhere.

FoundingFather

Coinkat, I'm sorry you don't find me asking about a theme represented on foreign or ancient coins to be topical in the foreign and ancient coin forum, but I think it's time for you to take your advice elsewhere. Have a good evening.

FoundingFather

Apparently, there was an Emperor named "Elagabalus" who reigned A.D. 218-222 was believed to have been gay. Lots of coins were issued under him, but I haven't yet seen any that are suggestive.

Elagabalus coins

--- snippet from web

Though Elagabalus should not only achieve notoriety with his religious fanaticism. He should also shock Roman society with his sexual practices.
Were the Romans quite used to learning of their emperors - among them even the mighty Trajan -having a liking for young boys, then they had evidently never had an emperor such as Elagabalus.
It appears most likely that Elagabalus was homosexual, for his interests lay clearly with men, and he seemed to have shown little desire for any of his wives. Further to this, Elagabalus seemed to bear the desire in him to be a woman. He had the hairs plucked from his body in order to appear more female, and delighted in appearing in public wearing make-up.
And he is said to have promised his physicians large sums of money if they would find away to operate on him and turn him into a woman.
More so, at court a blond Carian slave named Hierocles acted as the emperor's 'husband'.
Accounts also point to Elagabalus enjoying to pretend being a prostitute, offering himself naked to passers by in the palace, or even prostituting himself in the taverns and brothels of Rome. Meanwhile he would often arrange it to be caught by Hierocles, who would then be expected to punish him for his behaviour with a severe beating.

coinkat

I will not take my advise elsewhere... not now or ever.

FoundingFather

"I will not take my advise elsewhere... not now or ever. "

OK, so I should take my question about world and ancient coin symbolism out of the word and ancient coin forum, but your advice should stay. Got it.

How about helping me do some googling and research to see if any homo-eroticism exists on coins in history?

cacheman

coinkat, this place went to Hell in a hand-basket over a year ago....

FoundingFather

A GAY DESIGN FROM FROM CZECHOSLOVAKIA?

This old silver 20 Korun coin from Czechoslovakia has an unusual design. The coin shows a topless beefy construction worker and a farmer, staring lovingly into each others eyes while holding hands with a naked young man. The design is supposed to symbolize industry, agriculture and business - but at first glance one might easily get other ideas. The reverse of the coin shows the Czechoslovakian arms. The coin is 34mm in diameter and contains .27 ounces of silver. It was issued only two years, 1933 and 1934, before it was discontinued.

coinpictures

Brokeback numismatics... is this topic really necessary?

FoundingFather

I find my initial post as "necessary" as yours. How about adding to the knowledge base and helping me instead of complaining that this topic doesn't interest you?

FoundingFather

There seems to be a lot of homosexuality in Greek and Roman art, so I wonder if that made its way to any coinage. Must ... research.

WillieBoyd2

England had King James I (of Bible and Mayflower fame).
He produced some interesting coins.

Of course if one goes back to the Roman Empire, lots of guys.
Hadrian issued a lot of coins commemorating the death of his young boyfriend Antinous (not Antoninius Pius).

Lynch

I think the question is reasonable and appropriate for this forum, although I understand that some might be uncomfortable with the subject matter.

FF, I don't know of any coins/tokens/medals that feature homosexual themes. They might well exist, but if they do, I don't know about them.

It is my understanding that homosexuality was accepted in Ancient Greece, so that would be the first place I would suggest looking.

In terms of heterosexual themes, there is a group of tokens (?) known collectively as "Spintriae" that might be of interest. The originals are quite rare and bring significant sums when offered. They might be the ancient counterpart of modern brothel tokens.

Search on "Spintria" or "Spintriae" for links featuring these.

Sorry that I cannot be more helpful.

dcamp78

I would definitely look at Greek and Roman coins.
I remember from History class that they were quite
open about their sexual behaviour.

1jester

<< <i>England had King James I (of Bible and Mayflower fame).
He produced some interesting coins. >>



To my knowledge, the claim that James I was gay is completely unsubstantiated and propogated by those who had less than noble intentions.

crito

I dunno, I always heard those British people were kind of fruity. Just look at 1jester's icon... what kind of queer hat is that guy wearing? And Ancient Egypt is full of tall pointy phallic symbols, so I'd dig deeper there too. Canada recently issued a Daffodil silver proof. In school I learned that's a universally accepted symbol of gayness, or is it gayhood.. anyway. Can't wait for the Pansy proofs myself. We all know what THAT means (wink-wink, nudge-nudge). Not that I could be reading into it what I want to hear, or anything like that.

1jester

FoundingFather

Thanks for the great posts and info leads, people!

Conder101

The problem as I see it would be how do you show a reference to homosexuality, or heterosexuality for that matter, on a coin? Short of showing two people of the same sex passionately kissing or actually engaged sexual activity, I'm not sure how you would. I don't think simply holding hands (as in the Czec coin referenced earlier) or an arm around the shoulder or waist would be enough to definitely indicate homosexuality.

I also think they have not gotten the symbolism quite right on that coin either. The nude third figure that they are referencing as business I think actually represents medicine. A nude figure (The body) holding a caduses says medicine to me, not business.

On the ancient Greek coins be careful that you don't ascribe homosexual references to them simply on the use of two nude men on them. Greek coins sometimes referenced athletics or the Olympic games and the contestants in these events competed in the nude. (Which I imagine could be rather awkward in the wrestling events.)

FoundingFather

Hi Conder,

First let me say thanks again for the attribution and other help you gave me when I first came to the board years ago. As to your points on sexual symbolism - I hear you. I am aware that I need to be careful and not assume much. I am not looking to force anything and I am not looking to fit an agenda. I am skeptical and objective and just looking for facts. Sometimes imagery on a coin can be referenced to historical writings that may shed light. Sometimes the reason for the coin is recorded, and that may shed light. Perhaps symbols or other small items that indicate or suggest a particular sexual practice or culture is embedded within - I don't know. That's why I am searching. This is one of my long-term "research projects" since there is a lot to analyze and learn. I don't expect answers, just leads. Thanks for your time and help.

construct

<< <i>Of course if one goes back to the Roman Empire, lots of guys.
Hadrian issued a lot of coins commemorating the death of his young boyfriend Antinous (not Antoninius Pius). >>



Here is a rather interesting link telling the story of Antinous and showing several of the coins related to him. You'd really have to know the backstory before you would know that there was any sort of "gay" reference.

Interesting thread.

JZrarities

>>>I would definitely look at Greek and Roman coins.

"tetradrachm of Naxos, shortly after 461 BC
Obv. head Dionysos, bearded. Hair in knot and guirlanded with ivy
Rev. nude Silen sitting with footless kantharos; NAXION"

XXX

<< <i>Brokeback numismatics... is this topic really necessary? >>




Now that is funny. I fell out of the chair when I read your post............

Brokeback numismatics too funny.

FoundingFather

JZrarities, good one to check out!

TitusFlavius

I think the nude, muscular, male figure was considered the ideal representation of human beauty in ancient Greek culture. It is the rough equivalent of the scantily-clad, half-starved young woman in the modern West. The engraver of the Naxos Tetradrachma probably just wanted to portray Selinos in a manner reflecting the culture's ideal of beauty. I don't see any refrence to sexuallity in it.

I'm an undergraduate History major with an interest in art history. Just my two Sesterces.

HighRelief

<< <i>Brokeback numismatics... is this topic really necessary? >>

cladking

Homosexuality is normally suppressed in all cultures with only one possible exception
and they didn't issue coins. These were tha Amazonians and very little is really known
about them I think.

There was relatively open male homosexuality in pre-war Germany and Nazi-Germany.
While hardly rampant it was common and less hidden than in other places. Hitler killed
many homosexuals in around 1938 I believe during one of his cleansings.

I don't believe any of the coinage of this era fits your criteria but you might investigate
the artists as some could. Look especially at the patterns.

As has been pointed out; coins are pretty much asexual. But like all art the viewer can
attribute to it more than the artist intended.

FoundingFather

Thanks for the great comments.

Sylvestius

<< <i>It is my understanding that homosexuality was accepted in Ancient Greece, so that would be the first place I would suggest looking. >>




As an aside note, which you may find interesting. Back in Ancient Greece/Rome homosexuality didn't exist, that's not to say a man would not have sex with another man because that almost certainly did occur. However, the term 'homosexual' is a nineteenth century term conjoured up to indicate a way of life. I.e a one or other scenario, a straight man is 'heterosexual' because he likes women and not men, a 'homosexual' was a man who liked men and not women.

People in ancient times did not think in those 'either/or' terms, infact it was quite common and acceptable for a man to have sexual relations with either men or women and be regarded as a normal man, so long as he was conducting himself actively. So for instance Emperor Hadrian was presumably the active partner in his relationship with his male lover and thus it was considered 'normal', he was still manly because he was still fulfilling the male role. In Ancient times male/male relations were fixed, one took the place of the woman, one of the man and they did not switch so far as sources indicate.

Now Elagabalus on the other hand was derided because he preferred the passive, female role. And that's where the ancients had problems. The key terminology is; penetrator = good/male/strong/active, penetratee = bad/weak/effeminate/passive.

That might explain why some historic figures that have been deemed 'gay', are revered regardless of it; Richard the Lionheart, Alexander the Great, Hadrian etc.

Whilst others have been heavily criticised for it; Edward II, Elagabalus etc.

There's alot of work been done on these kind of topics, and if it interests you then Bullagh/Bullugh (sp?) and Brundage are two authors to consult.

Glad to see i learned something from my history degree...

FoundingFather

Thanks Sylvestius, that was awesome!

bidask

NO!