<< <i>I understand it, and I feel the same way about the Orioles in the 80s, or the same way any diehard fan of any team/player does. But to ignore staitical and economic facts when making arguments whether a particular player or team deserved/s something defies logical thinking.
If I said Eddie Murray's cards were undervalued, a lot of those same Mattingly fans would rip me apart.
Lee >>
Go ahead and say it. You wont find a bigger Mattingly fan than me and I will certainly say Eddie Murrays cards are undervalued based on his career. But so are Rod Carews, and Steve Carltons. Im sure we can come up with a nice big list if we tried.
In the end nobodys cards are undervalued. They are worth what someone is willing to pay at any given time.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>BigHurt, I don't think they would lose any games due to Ortiz and his defense. They won a world series with Kevin Millar at first base. >>
As bad as Millar is at first, he's still infinitely better than Ortiz. That's why Millar was actually playing defense on the field with the rest of his teammates while the wanna-be MVP was sitting in the air conditioned comfort of the locker-room stuffing his face with burgers, wings and pies.
<< <i>Mitchell had a few priceless 'roid rage incidents that IMO give him a bump over Canseco. >>
Kevin grew up around a gang environment, and that influence has factored in his confrontations over the years. Canseco is just plain psycho.
Canseco over Mitchell by a mile................... >>
What did Canseco do, other than rat out the rest of the steroid users in MLB? When you talk Kevin Mitchell you get to talk about decapitating cats, holding Doc Gooden hostage with a Ginsu knife, and so on.
I don't know enough about Canseco to say if he did anything really, really weird over the course of his career, so my opinion can certainly be changed, but when you talk about Mitchell you're talking about one of the greatest nut jobs to ever wear an MLB uni.
<< <i>What did Canseco do, other than rat out the rest of the steroid users in MLB? When you talk Kevin Mitchell you get to talk about decapitating cats, holding Doc Gooden hostage with a Ginsu knife, and so on. >>
Canseco's always been really high-profile. His career was always far more scrutanized than Mitchell's, mainly because he was a really good player while on the juice. As for his antics... how about: high speed Porsh fight with his wife, driving down the Floriday highway... The whole NY, Madonna thing... bar fights with his brother... "A Day with Jose" auction (for some lucky fan to spend the whole day with Jose as he hung out at his place under house-arrest. The book deal.
Folks will remember Canseco long after they forget about Mitchell.
<< <i>BigHurt, I don't think they would lose any games due to Ortiz and his defense. They won a world series with Kevin Millar at first base. >>
As bad as Millar is at first, he's still infinitely better than Ortiz. That's why Millar was actually playing defense on the field with the rest of his teammates while the wanna-be MVP was sitting in the air conditioned comfort of the locker-room stuffing his face with burgers, wings and pies. >>
That's a crock of bull. Ortiz is not a Gold Glove winner, but he has performed very well in the games when the Sox have been at NL parks and Papi has been at first. Want some facts, here you go: In his 3 1/2 years with the Sox, Ortiz has played 94 games at first base, and has made 9 errors. Not exactly a nightmare. But don't let facts get in the way of making fun of the best clutch hitter in the game today.
I think Sox fans (of whom I am a big one) would take Ortiz's D any day of the week over the exploits of someone like Lastings Milledge. I seriously think after his couple of games at Fenway this week, he could pull a Rick Ankiel and become paranoid of any fly ball coming his way.
In defense of Milledge, not that his play in the field was anything but lousy, Fenway is a tough place to play for a rookie in his first couple of months, especially for a guy playing on a NY team. Just ask Melky Cabrera, he will tell you all too well how it is. I think Melky has recovered quite well since then and not suffered any Ankiel like fate as suggested.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Nobody is saying Ortiz isn't a good hitter, but give the people on this forum a little credit, will ya? We all know Ortiz is a butcher at first. There's a damn good reason why he DHs 100% of the time in AL parks. Nobody in the Red Sox organization trusts him to take the field as a first baseman. That's why he's gets the luxury of taking naps in the lockerroom and stuffing his fatface in between his at bats.
/cue Red Sox fan shouting, "OMGZORZ BUT HE IS TEH CLUTCHEST OF CLUTCH HITTERZ IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME!!!!!!1one"
You guys are hitting at the heart of why Mattingly cards are so hot. If it weren't for D. Ortiz' liability at 1B or the Canseco psycho vs. Mitchell nut case debate, Mattingly's cards would be a third of what you pay today.
<< <i>Nobody is saying Ortiz isn't a good hitter, but give the people on this forum a little credit, will ya? We all know Ortiz is a butcher at first. There's a damn good reason why he DHs 100% of the time in AL parks. Nobody in the Red Sox organization trusts him to take the field as a first baseman. That's why he's gets the luxury of taking naps in the lockerroom and stuffing his fatface in between his at bats.
/cue Red Sox fan shouting, "OMGZORZ BUT HE IS TEH CLUTCHEST OF CLUTCH HITTERZ IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME!!!!!!1one"
>>
Sorry to get off topic, but I had to reply to this....
If there is a better defensive option, you don't need to use Ortiz in the field. The DH is there for a reason, and AL teams have been utilizing this for 34 seasons now. Would you respect him more if they used Coco Crisp as a DH and put Ortiz in center, so he could embarrass himself? He has a role, and knows it, and is the best at it in the game.
Then again, I'm asking a Marlins fan to understand this. You're probably wondering why the Sox haven't traded Ortiz for a single-A prospect coming off Tommy John surgery.
<< <i>Then again, I'm asking a Marlins fan to understand this. You're probably wondering why the Sox haven't traded Ortiz for a single-A prospect coming off Tommy John surgery. >>
Where do you get off trying to talk smack with a Marlin fan? We have twice as many championships in the last 10 years of our franchise than you have in the last 90 years!!
As to get the discussion about MVP voting back on track, the reason I said Ortiz should not have been given the award last year was because he's such a one dimensional player. I'm not saying he's not "clutch" or important to the Red Sox.
I'm just saying he's not playing the same game Alex Rodriguez, Vlade Guerrero and other full time ballplayers play. When it's August and 120 degrees on the field in Texas, Kansas City and ballparks across the country, Ortiz is lounging in air-conditioned comfort, preparing for his next AB while his teammates and other MVP caliber players are broiling in the sun and making contributions defensively to help their team win.
"Then again, I'm asking a Marlins fan to understand this. You're probably wondering why the Sox haven't traded Ortiz for a single-A prospect coming off Tommy John surgery."
That is the single funniest thing I've read in my entire life.
<< <i>Then again, I'm asking a Marlins fan to understand this. You're probably wondering why the Sox haven't traded Ortiz for a single-A prospect coming off Tommy John surgery. >>
Where do you get off trying to talk smack with a Marlin fan? We have twice as many championships in the last 10 years of our franchise than you have in the last 90 years!!
>>
Just to be techincal, the Marlins have won the same number in the last 10 years as the Sox have in 90 -- 1918 and 2004 fall within that 90 year range! Pathetic as that fact is, we can't make it sound even worse than reality!
And I do agree, DH's do have it a bit easier than those playing in the field, and obviously many voters agree with your view. It's just that Ortiz wins SO many games with walkoff homers, singles and everything in between, that for Sox fans to see him as anything but MVP, it is difficult.
Hijacking of the link is over - now back to your regularly scheduled '84 Donruss Mattingly discussion.....
<< <i>"Then again, I'm asking a Marlins fan to understand this. You're probably wondering why the Sox haven't traded Ortiz for a single-A prospect coming off Tommy John surgery."
That is the single funniest thing I've read in my entire life.
Lee >>
Thanks Lee. I was laughing as I was typing it, and my boss came over and busted me on the PSA site and got in a bit of trouble for it. But I'm glad you enjoyed so I can say it was worth it!
<< <i>"Then again, I'm asking a Marlins fan to understand this. You're probably wondering why the Sox haven't traded Ortiz for a single-A prospect coming off Tommy John surgery."
That is the single funniest thing I've read in my entire life.
Lee >>
Thanks Lee. I was laughing as I was typing it, and my boss came over and busted me on the PSA site and got in a bit of trouble for it. But I'm glad you enjoyed so I can say it was worth it! >>
I think he would've gotten a bigger laugh if he knew you were calling a person who was MAKING FUN of Marlin fans a Marlin fan.
The text and the picture in my signature is suppose to be a sarcastic shot at their front running fans.
No, no, I get that you're making fun of them with the empty stadium and all. I thought the knock on the management (or mismanagement) of the team over th years was sheer genius. They've given away nearly every great player that helped them win. I hope the O's can get a good deal on Cabrera or Willis- it's about time to dump them. God forbid they pay more than $3 million a year for anybody.
^^The O's fans can't say much about mismanagement. Although I like the direction the club is going in. What's wrong with the Marlins? They trade aging and overpaid talent for hungry youngins.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
I wouldn't call Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell, Juan Pierre, Carlos Delgado, Paul Lo Duca, Luis Castillo, and AJ Burnett from the last two years, and Gary Sheffield, Moises Alou, Cliff Floyd, Livan Hernandez from 1997 aging veterans on the decline.
That being said, the equally baffling mismanagement of the Orioles over the last 10 years has been mentally disturbing for me.
<< <i>I wouldn't call Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell, Juan Pierre, Carlos Delgado, Paul Lo Duca, Luis Castillo, and AJ Burnett from the last two years, and Gary Sheffield, Moises Alou, Cliff Floyd, Livan Hernandez from 1997 aging veterans on the decline.
That being said, the equally baffling mismanagement of the Orioles over the last 10 years has been mentally disturbing for me.
Lee >>
Well, the owner is smart. He chooses to make a run, then cut costs. It's seems so far to be a smart business plan. Don't worry about the O's, even though I'm a Yank fan I've always lived in MD. Angelos is really starting to make some great moves and I believe the O's are closer than they appear to the rest of the AL East.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Jim Bunning - 224 wins and only 40 wins over .500 after 17 seasons?
George Kell - a .306 BA with only 78 home runs and just over 2000 hits in 15 seasons?
and Mattingly - .307 BA, 222 home runs, over 2100 hits, 1100 rbi's, .417 BA in his only postseason appearance, 9 gold gloves, 3 silver slugger awards, 1985-Major League Player of the Year, 1985-AL-MVP, 1993-Lou Gehrig Memorial Award, a batting title and a 6 time All star.
Mattingly doesnt deserve the hall? Well then neither do the guys listed above.
Why not just enshrine every player who donned a New Yankee uniform. You forgot to mention Rizzuto in your argument. He doesn't belong in the hall but he gets in because he was a yankee.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
jad22 - can't remember to put all your thoughts in one reply?
Sure, Koufax was as dominating a pitcher as anyone in his day. But to compare numbers, his dont bear out a HOF career. He was every bit as good as Marichal, Gibson et al but 165 wins and he walked away? No one believes that the Yankee pinstripes get you automatic hall considerations, stats do. Mattingly is as good stat wise as quite a number already in there. He was one of the most feared hitters of his era when the game was on the line. A solid, day in, day out guy.
As for Rizzuto, we wont start another conversation about his 13 year career, his awards, losing 3 years to the military, and all those World Series infields that he anchored. He deserved it as much as Pee Wee Reese did.
Heck, if we're really going to start this, why is Jackie Robinson in the HOF? 10 years, 1500 hits, 137 homers? Please dont remind me about the struggle he endured. True baseball historians know that he wasnt the first African American in the ML. Yes, he was a good ballplayer, and was exciting to watch. Yes, he faced incredible adversity. His numbers do not bear out a HOF career.
Southern-Robinson got in because of his impact on the game. Yes he wasn't the first, but he was the most widely announced/covered and that led to a change of perception within the MLB. His impact was far greater than his numbers.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
I dont dispute that Robinson had a huge impact on the game. He was unwittingly thrown into that roll. He faced discrimination from every angle. His impact on the game was very respectable and he was to be looked upon as a giant among men. Pete Gray, Bert Shepard, Lou Brissie, Jim Abbot and others played with missing limbs. Curtis Pride is deaf. You could go on and on about people who faced adversity in way one or another.
The HOF should be about stats and what you did on the field. Not what a black man or a one armed man or a deaf man did, but what a ballplayer did.
If I had $1 for every death threat from those damn amputeeists sent Jim Abbott.....
Southern, you're way off base. Mattingly's impact on the game can't even come close to Jackie Robinson's or Sandy Koufax. Jackie Robinson was good enough to be the first black player allowed in bigs and was a dominant player in the Negro Leagues even before he entered the Majors (batted .around .390 in his one season), and Negro League success does count. I guess by your standards Satchell Page and Josh Gibson don't belong in either?
Koufax was the most feared pitcher in baseball in the time he played, and nobody ever wanted to face him. There's a difference between being one of the best (Mattingly) and the most dominant of an era (Koufax). He also set the stage for the power pitchers of the last 3 decades (Ryan and Clemens specifically).
Using your argument that only stats matter, you eliminate Ozzie, Puckett, Ashburn, and others that do deserve it. I used my example of stats to show that there were other players in the 80s who put up similar or better stats that carry significantly lower pricetags, and that is why Mattingly is not undervalued comparitively.
when you start basing your argument on your player's merit in the all on other players already there, then you know your guy doesn't deserve it.
Comparing Mattingly to Koufax? Are you NUTS?
I am by no means a Koufax apologist, but his impact on the game was astonishing, absolutely dominated in a way that few ever did. Mattingly had a solid career, but he wasn't batting .400 year in and year out.
Mattingly had a great career, but he'll be on the outside looking in.
Exactly when do the Thurman Munson backers chime in that he's deserving, too?
^^ But Donnie is comparable to Puckett and Boggs(although both have WS Championsips). Just look at the stats and compare and contrast, don't just blindly hate.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
<< <i>^^ But Donnie is comparable to Puckett and Boggs(although both have WS Championsips). Just look at the stats and compare and contrast, don't just blindly hate. >>
I am not hating.
Mattingly just wasn't great enough long enough. Them's the breaks. Puckett got a pass because he was likable and got tons of postseason exposure (hmm...much like many of the yankees of today). Boggs, on the other hand, was a monster at the plate and truly dominated the game for the better part of a decade: 5 time batting champ, 6 time league leader in OBP, 12 straight all star appearances, and, of course, 3000 hits.
Mattingly really had 4 great seasons (84-87), led the league in BA just once (had one second place finish), 1/2 the number of all star appearances as Boggs, never lead the league in OBP (best was a 5th place), but he did win one MVP award.
Mattingly just didn't put it together long enough to merit induction.
Hall of Fame or not, Mattingly is a popular and that is why his cards command relatively high prices. It does not matter that there are many Yankee fans buying them up, the price is slowly going to rise because of that.
Bo Jackson sells for more than just a common or minor star. Jackson was and is still popular in some respects and there are collectors willing to pay a premium for his PSA 10s.
People are going to buy what they like and it is not always tied to statistics.
I collect Jim Abbott and Andy Van Slyke. I am not looking at their stats, I just grew up enjoying their game and attitude. It does not matter that they are never going to the HOF-- I like them.
The way Mattingly's rookies are valued, it seems that he is in the HOF. I don't want to argue his stats here since its been done already in many places. I like the argument that Mattingly is to generation X as Mantle is to the baby boomers. It has a social explanation, not a logical one, so whatever one wants to argue, the reality is, Mattingly means something to a considerable amount of people.
I wonder what would happen in 10 years with the veterans committee. The way they have been voting, I would not be surprised if they put in Joe Torre, Jack Morris or Don Mattingly. I can't imagine Wade Boggs not voting for him. We can argue here all we want about Mattingly's stats, but in the end, the Veterans Committe don't think like all of us. They use a different criteria than we do. Some might be excited at their decision, some not. Whatever happens, will happen.
I personally am not holding my breath about Mattingly one way or another. He is my favorite player and that's all I need to know. If you like him, great. If you don't, that's fine. But the old HOF argument is futile. It won't change my positive opinion of him one or the other.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
Nobody really knows what the veterans committee will do in the future. If I remember correctly, Mattingly had the hightest fielding percentage for a first basemen of all time. Ozzie Smith gets in and he was a one dimensional player, Mattingly played his postion as well as Smith. Maybe Pee Reese doesn't belong either but I am bias, the guy did not sign my card when I was younger. Ashburn, Rizzuto, Tony Perez all are suspect. As a side note, does Jeff Kent get in the hall, his numbers are better than Joe Morgan. Mo Vaughn had good years as well and I am not lobbying for his fat butt to be in the hall.
Koufax was a great pitcher, yes. He only had 300 strikeouts 3 times, only won 20+ games 3 times (plus one 18 and 19 win season). His first 5 years he was like 36-40. He dominating for his era. In the 80's, Mattingly was equally as dominating as a hitter. I'd vote Mattingly in way before Ashburn or Tony Perez.
Koufax had the advantage of pitching in Dodger's Stadium and that gave him an edge to get many ERA titles. If adjusted for ball parks (ERA+), he would only be leading the league once or twice. If Mattingly's OPS was adjusted for ballparks too, he would be leading the league twice (only a handful of players led the league more than once in OPS+). I never knew about this until recently.
"So many of our DREAMS at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we SUMMON THE WILL they soon become INEVITABLE "- Christopher Reeve
<< <i>Koufax was a great pitcher, yes. He only had 300 strikeouts 3 times, only won 20+ games 3 times (plus one 18 and 19 win season). His first 5 years he was like 36-40. He dominating for his era. In the 80's, Mattingly was equally as dominating as a hitter. I'd vote Mattingly in way before Ashburn or Tony Perez. >>
Mattingly didn't approach Koufax's dominance EVER. Mattingly wasn't even the most dominant hitter of his era, that would be Boggs hands down.
Instead of looking at strikeouts, why don't you look at ERA? 5 straight years of leading the league in ERA, which is 4 more times than Mattingly led the league in batting average.
How about comparing Cy Young awards to MVP? Three for Koufax, one for Mattingly. Hell, Koufax has as many MVP awards as Mattingly!
It is ignorant statements like these being made by southerncards that cast such a negative light on yankee fans. To say that Mattingly was as dominant in his era as Koufax was in his is absolutely, positively ignorant. There are no other words to describe it.
I understand he's your favorite player, but damn, man, look at the numbers objectively. Don't pick out a random stat like 300 strike out seasons (but if you want to, Koufax has 3 times as many 300 K seasons as Mattingly led the league in batting average).
I have already stated very emphatically that despite being a HUUUUUGGGEE Mattingly fan I dont think he did it long enough to get into the hall.
Having restated that Ax, you have got to be out of your damn mind to think Wade Boggs was a more dominant offensive player than Mattingly. Boggs was a slap hitter who used the green monster as his personal step child, slapping everything off it for yrs. He had zero power, zero ability to take over and dominate a game as Mattingly did in his prime. Throw in the fact that Boggs spent the better half of his prime being a mediocre fielder at best as well as a guy who didnt have 1/100th of Mattinglys leadership qualities. Boggs is in the hall because he was able to sustain his gig long enough to get to 3,000 hits.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Mattingly should be in the HOF simply because he was one of the top 10 Yankees of all time, he holds numerous Yankess records and MLB records...that should be enough...he was the Yankee captain, and was a leader on and off the field...The hall of fame should not be purely about the numbers, mattingly had intangibles that cannot be measured, and anyone who saw mattingly play at the stadium knows what DONNIE BASEBALL is!
ps that boggs /mattinlgy comparison in last post was right on! MATTINGLY LEAD LEAGUE IN OPS 4 years in a row, boggs never came close..OPS is the best stat to gauge a hitters true abilities...
First off, I never claimed that Mattingly was all time my favorite player. I loved to watch him dearly but my favorite growing up was Dan Pasqua because I knew him through a friend. Mattingly was easily in my top 3 though when I was growing up. To compare Boggs to Mattingly is a joke. Boggs was never, ever the fielder that Donnie was. Boggs was a darn singles hitter while Matty often killed opposing pitchers with doubles and homers. To watch Mattingly play first in the 80's was like watching Clemente play the outfield for a Pirate fan in the 60's. Mattingly was one of the smartest hitters of his era.
and by the way, I dont see Boggs being the batting coach for the bosox now, is he?
Most advanced measurements include ballpark effect on a player. However, it isn't always accurate, especially for L or R hitters. IN Boggs' case, an opposite field hitting left handed hitter has much more of an advantage at Fenway than what the overall park effect shows for a batter. So Boggs' park adjustment needs to be adjusted more.
IN 4,950 at bats at home and on the road for his career here are Bogg's lines...
HOME BA .342, OB% .442, and SLG .491 AWAY BA .302, OB% .387, and SLG .395
Playing in a home park other than Fenway for his career, it isn't out of the realm to expect him to be a career .307 hitter with .397 OB%, and .401 SLG%. Nice numbers, but not as pretty as they look now.
Boggs had 7 straight 200 hits seasons, that is pretty impressive. Mattingly did not have 7 good seasons. People should not be put in the hall just because they played for the Yankees. If Koufax had played for the Yankees nobody whould even think twice about him being in the hall instead we would hear how unhittable he was. Jim Rice was more dominate than Mattingly and he is having a hard time getting in. It is amazing how Yankee fans push Mattingly, Guidry, Munson and no doubt we will have Bernie "Adequate Baseball" jammed down our throats on day. Nobody would even care about Reggie Jackson and his garbage stats if he had not played for the Yankees. MO VAUGHN had more good seasons than Mattingly. Stop the Yankee madness. Ok NY players are not great and are not automatic hall of famers.
He's a Yankee hater who doesn't realize had Koufax pitched for the Yanks he would've ended up with probably twice as many wins. Mo Vaughn?? Yeesh, another Roid Boy. Comparing Rice to Mattingly? Lol.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
<< <i>Boggs had 7 straight 200 hits seasons, that is pretty impressive. Mattingly did not have 7 good seasons. People should not be put in the hall just because they played for the Yankees. If Koufax had played for the Yankees nobody whould even think twice about him being in the hall instead we would hear how unhittable he was. Jim Rice was more dominate than Mattingly and he is having a hard time getting in. It is amazing how Yankee fans push Mattingly, Guidry, Munson and no doubt we will have Bernie "Adequate Baseball" jammed down our throats on day. Nobody would even care about Reggie Jackson and his garbage stats if he had not played for the Yankees. MO VAUGHN had more good seasons than Mattingly. Stop the Yankee madness. Ok NY players are not great and are not automatic hall of famers. >>
There is NO question that being a Yankee already puts you about 50% closer to the hall than someone else with similar stats. It is not usually enough to get you IN, but it does not hurt.
Reggie Jackson had more strikeouts than hits for his career 2597 strikeouts and 2584. That is sad and pathetic. Harmon Killebrew who had a reputation for striking out does not even come close to this. In fact the only person who comes close to this feat with that many homeruns would be Jose Canseco. At least Jose could run. Maybe Jose should have played for the Yankees longer then he would also qualify for the hall of fame.
Comments
<< <i>I understand it, and I feel the same way about the Orioles in the 80s, or the same way any diehard fan of any team/player does. But to ignore staitical and economic facts when making arguments whether a particular player or team deserved/s something defies logical thinking.
If I said Eddie Murray's cards were undervalued, a lot of those same Mattingly fans would rip me apart.
Lee >>
Go ahead and say it. You wont find a bigger Mattingly fan than me and I will certainly say Eddie Murrays cards are undervalued based on his career. But so are Rod Carews, and Steve Carltons. Im sure we can come up with a nice big list if we tried.
In the end nobodys cards are undervalued. They are worth what someone is willing to pay at any given time.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>BigHurt, I don't think they would lose any games due to Ortiz and his defense. They won a world series with Kevin Millar at first base. >>
As bad as Millar is at first, he's still infinitely better than Ortiz. That's why Millar was actually playing defense on the field with the rest of his teammates while the wanna-be MVP was sitting in the air conditioned comfort of the locker-room stuffing his face with burgers, wings and pies.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Mitchell had a few priceless 'roid rage incidents that IMO give him a bump over Canseco. >>
Kevin grew up around a gang environment, and that influence has factored in his confrontations over the years. Canseco is just plain psycho.
Canseco over Mitchell by a mile................... >>
What did Canseco do, other than rat out the rest of the steroid users in MLB? When you talk Kevin Mitchell you get to talk about decapitating cats, holding Doc Gooden hostage with a Ginsu knife, and so on.
I don't know enough about Canseco to say if he did anything really, really weird over the course of his career, so my opinion can certainly be changed, but when you talk about Mitchell you're talking about one of the greatest nut jobs to ever wear an MLB uni.
<< <i>What did Canseco do, other than rat out the rest of the steroid users in MLB? When you talk Kevin Mitchell you get to talk about decapitating cats, holding Doc Gooden hostage with a Ginsu knife, and so on. >>
Canseco's always been really high-profile. His career was always far more scrutanized than Mitchell's, mainly because he was a really good player while on the juice. As for his antics... how about:
high speed Porsh fight with his wife, driving down the Floriday highway...
The whole NY, Madonna thing...
bar fights with his brother...
"A Day with Jose" auction (for some lucky fan to spend the whole day with Jose as he hung out at his place under house-arrest.
The book deal.
Folks will remember Canseco long after they forget about Mitchell.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>BigHurt, I don't think they would lose any games due to Ortiz and his defense. They won a world series with Kevin Millar at first base. >>
As bad as Millar is at first, he's still infinitely better than Ortiz. That's why Millar was actually playing defense on the field with the rest of his teammates while the wanna-be MVP was sitting in the air conditioned comfort of the locker-room stuffing his face with burgers, wings and pies. >>
That's a crock of bull. Ortiz is not a Gold Glove winner, but he has performed very well in the games when the Sox have been at NL parks and Papi has been at first. Want some facts, here you go: In his 3 1/2 years with the Sox, Ortiz has played 94 games at first base, and has made 9 errors. Not exactly a nightmare. But don't let facts get in the way of making fun of the best clutch hitter in the game today.
I think Sox fans (of whom I am a big one) would take Ortiz's D any day of the week over the exploits of someone like Lastings Milledge. I seriously think after his couple of games at Fenway this week, he could pull a Rick Ankiel and become paranoid of any fly ball coming his way.
-- Yogi Berra
/cue Red Sox fan shouting, "OMGZORZ BUT HE IS TEH CLUTCHEST OF CLUTCH HITTERZ IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME!!!!!!1one"
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
See, it pays to read all these posts!
<< <i>Nobody is saying Ortiz isn't a good hitter, but give the people on this forum a little credit, will ya? We all know Ortiz is a butcher at first. There's a damn good reason why he DHs 100% of the time in AL parks. Nobody in the Red Sox organization trusts him to take the field as a first baseman. That's why he's gets the luxury of taking naps in the lockerroom and stuffing his fatface in between his at bats.
/cue Red Sox fan shouting, "OMGZORZ BUT HE IS TEH CLUTCHEST OF CLUTCH HITTERZ IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME!!!!!!1one"
Sorry to get off topic, but I had to reply to this....
If there is a better defensive option, you don't need to use Ortiz in the field. The DH is there for a reason, and AL teams have been utilizing this for 34 seasons now. Would you respect him more if they used Coco Crisp as a DH and put Ortiz in center, so he could embarrass himself? He has a role, and knows it, and is the best at it in the game.
Then again, I'm asking a Marlins fan to understand this. You're probably wondering why the Sox haven't traded Ortiz for a single-A prospect coming off Tommy John surgery.
<< <i>Then again, I'm asking a Marlins fan to understand this. You're probably wondering why the Sox haven't traded Ortiz for a single-A prospect coming off Tommy John surgery. >>
Where do you get off trying to talk smack with a Marlin fan? We have twice as many championships in the last 10 years of our franchise than you have in the last 90 years!!
As to get the discussion about MVP voting back on track, the reason I said Ortiz should not have been given the award last year was because he's such a one dimensional player. I'm not saying he's not "clutch" or important to the Red Sox.
I'm just saying he's not playing the same game Alex Rodriguez, Vlade Guerrero and other full time ballplayers play. When it's August and 120 degrees on the field in Texas, Kansas City and ballparks across the country, Ortiz is lounging in air-conditioned comfort, preparing for his next AB while his teammates and other MVP caliber players are broiling in the sun and making contributions defensively to help their team win.
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That is the single funniest thing I've read in my entire life.
Lee
<< <i>
<< <i>Then again, I'm asking a Marlins fan to understand this. You're probably wondering why the Sox haven't traded Ortiz for a single-A prospect coming off Tommy John surgery. >>
Where do you get off trying to talk smack with a Marlin fan? We have twice as many championships in the last 10 years of our franchise than you have in the last 90 years!!
>>
Just to be techincal, the Marlins have won the same number in the last 10 years as the Sox have in 90 -- 1918 and 2004 fall within that 90 year range! Pathetic as that fact is, we can't make it sound even worse than reality!
And I do agree, DH's do have it a bit easier than those playing in the field, and obviously many voters agree with your view. It's just that Ortiz wins SO many games with walkoff homers, singles and everything in between, that for Sox fans to see him as anything but MVP, it is difficult.
Hijacking of the link is over - now back to your regularly scheduled '84 Donruss Mattingly discussion.....
<< <i>"Then again, I'm asking a Marlins fan to understand this. You're probably wondering why the Sox haven't traded Ortiz for a single-A prospect coming off Tommy John surgery."
That is the single funniest thing I've read in my entire life.
Lee >>
Thanks Lee. I was laughing as I was typing it, and my boss came over and busted me on the PSA site and got in a bit of trouble for it. But I'm glad you enjoyed so I can say it was worth it!
<< <i>
<< <i>"Then again, I'm asking a Marlins fan to understand this. You're probably wondering why the Sox haven't traded Ortiz for a single-A prospect coming off Tommy John surgery."
That is the single funniest thing I've read in my entire life.
Lee >>
Thanks Lee. I was laughing as I was typing it, and my boss came over and busted me on the PSA site and got in a bit of trouble for it. But I'm glad you enjoyed so I can say it was worth it! >>
I think he would've gotten a bigger laugh if he knew you were calling a person who was MAKING FUN of Marlin fans a Marlin fan.
The text and the picture in my signature is suppose to be a sarcastic shot at their front running fans.
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Lee
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I mean, we would probably have to hold out for at least two players coming off of Tommy John surgery and a has been to be named later.
But, those youngsters are really trying their butts off and making some nice strides in the standings lately!
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That being said, the equally baffling mismanagement of the Orioles over the last 10 years has been mentally disturbing for me.
Lee
<< <i>I wouldn't call Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell, Juan Pierre, Carlos Delgado, Paul Lo Duca, Luis Castillo, and AJ Burnett from the last two years, and Gary Sheffield, Moises Alou, Cliff Floyd, Livan Hernandez from 1997 aging veterans on the decline.
That being said, the equally baffling mismanagement of the Orioles over the last 10 years has been mentally disturbing for me.
Lee >>
Well, the owner is smart. He chooses to make a run, then cut costs. It's seems so far to be a smart business plan. Don't worry about the O's, even though I'm a Yank fan I've always lived in MD. Angelos is really starting to make some great moves and I believe the O's are closer than they appear to the rest of the AL East.
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<< <i>The Bighurt just has it out for Ortiz. I believe he tried to allude to Ortiz steroid use in the past. Bitter little girl >>
You must practice being wrong all the time, because I've never mentioned Ortiz and steroids. Thanks for playing our game though.
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Jim Bunning - 224 wins and only 40 wins over .500 after 17 seasons?
George Kell - a .306 BA with only 78 home runs and just over 2000 hits in 15 seasons?
and Mattingly -
.307 BA, 222 home runs, over 2100 hits, 1100 rbi's, .417 BA in his only postseason appearance, 9 gold gloves, 3 silver slugger awards, 1985-Major League Player of the Year, 1985-AL-MVP, 1993-Lou Gehrig Memorial Award, a batting title and a 6 time All star.
Mattingly doesnt deserve the hall? Well then neither do the guys listed above.
Yet another Yankee hater.
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Sure, Koufax was as dominating a pitcher as anyone in his day. But to compare numbers, his dont bear out a HOF career. He was every bit as good as Marichal, Gibson et al but 165 wins and he walked away? No one believes that the Yankee pinstripes get you automatic hall considerations, stats do. Mattingly is as good stat wise as quite a number already in there. He was one of the most feared hitters of his era when the game was on the line. A solid, day in, day out guy.
As for Rizzuto, we wont start another conversation about his 13 year career, his awards, losing 3 years to the military, and all those World Series infields that he anchored. He deserved it as much as Pee Wee Reese did.
Heck, if we're really going to start this, why is Jackie Robinson in the HOF? 10 years, 1500 hits, 137 homers? Please dont remind me about the struggle he endured. True baseball historians know that he wasnt the first African American in the ML. Yes, he was a good ballplayer, and was exciting to watch. Yes, he faced incredible adversity. His numbers do not bear out a HOF career.
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The HOF should be about stats and what you did on the field. Not what a black man or a one armed man or a deaf man did, but what a ballplayer did.
Southern, you're way off base. Mattingly's impact on the game can't even come close to Jackie Robinson's or Sandy Koufax. Jackie Robinson was good enough to be the first black player allowed in bigs and was a dominant player in the Negro Leagues even before he entered the Majors (batted .around .390 in his one season), and Negro League success does count. I guess by your standards Satchell Page and Josh Gibson don't belong in either?
Koufax was the most feared pitcher in baseball in the time he played, and nobody ever wanted to face him. There's a difference between being one of the best (Mattingly) and the most dominant of an era (Koufax). He also set the stage for the power pitchers of the last 3 decades (Ryan and Clemens specifically).
Using your argument that only stats matter, you eliminate Ozzie, Puckett, Ashburn, and others that do deserve it. I used my example of stats to show that there were other players in the 80s who put up similar or better stats that carry significantly lower pricetags, and that is why Mattingly is not undervalued comparitively.
Lee
when you start basing your argument on your player's merit in the all on other players already there, then you know your guy doesn't deserve it.
Comparing Mattingly to Koufax? Are you NUTS?
I am by no means a Koufax apologist, but his impact on the game was astonishing, absolutely dominated in a way that few ever did. Mattingly had a solid career, but he wasn't batting .400 year in and year out.
Mattingly had a great career, but he'll be on the outside looking in.
Exactly when do the Thurman Munson backers chime in that he's deserving, too?
But Donnie is comparable to Puckett and Boggs(although both have WS Championsips). Just look at the stats and compare and contrast, don't just blindly hate.
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<< <i>^^
But Donnie is comparable to Puckett and Boggs(although both have WS Championsips). Just look at the stats and compare and contrast, don't just blindly hate. >>
I am not hating.
Mattingly just wasn't great enough long enough. Them's the breaks. Puckett got a pass because he was likable and got tons of postseason exposure (hmm...much like many of the yankees of today). Boggs, on the other hand, was a monster at the plate and truly dominated the game for the better part of a decade: 5 time batting champ, 6 time league leader in OBP, 12 straight all star appearances, and, of course, 3000 hits.
Mattingly really had 4 great seasons (84-87), led the league in BA just once (had one second place finish), 1/2 the number of all star appearances as Boggs, never lead the league in OBP (best was a 5th place), but he did win one MVP award.
Mattingly just didn't put it together long enough to merit induction.
Bo Jackson sells for more than just a common or minor star. Jackson was and is still popular in some respects and there are collectors willing to pay a premium for his PSA 10s.
People are going to buy what they like and it is not always tied to statistics.
I collect Jim Abbott and Andy Van Slyke. I am not looking at their stats, I just grew up enjoying their game and attitude. It does not matter that they are never going to the HOF-- I like them.
The way Mattingly's rookies are valued, it seems that he is in the HOF. I don't want to argue his stats here since its been done already in many places. I like the argument that Mattingly is to generation X as Mantle is to the baby boomers. It has a social explanation, not a logical one, so whatever one wants to argue, the reality is, Mattingly means something to a considerable amount of people.
I wonder what would happen in 10 years with the veterans committee. The way they have been voting, I would not be surprised if they put in Joe Torre, Jack Morris or Don Mattingly. I can't imagine Wade Boggs not voting for him. We can argue here all we want about Mattingly's stats, but in the end, the Veterans Committe don't think like all of us. They use a different criteria than we do. Some might be excited at their decision, some not. Whatever happens, will happen.
I personally am not holding my breath about Mattingly one way or another. He is my favorite player and that's all I need to know. If you like him, great. If you don't, that's fine. But the old HOF argument is futile. It won't change my positive opinion of him one or the other.
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Koufax had the advantage of pitching in Dodger's Stadium and that gave him an edge to get many ERA titles. If adjusted for ball parks (ERA+), he would only be leading the league once or twice. If Mattingly's OPS was adjusted for ballparks too, he would be leading the league twice (only a handful of players led the league more than once in OPS+). I never knew about this until recently.
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<< <i>Koufax was a great pitcher, yes. He only had 300 strikeouts 3 times, only won 20+ games 3 times (plus one 18 and 19 win season). His first 5 years he was like 36-40. He dominating for his era. In the 80's, Mattingly was equally as dominating as a hitter. I'd vote Mattingly in way before Ashburn or Tony Perez. >>
Mattingly didn't approach Koufax's dominance EVER. Mattingly wasn't even the most dominant hitter of his era, that would be Boggs hands down.
Instead of looking at strikeouts, why don't you look at ERA? 5 straight years of leading the league in ERA, which is 4 more times than Mattingly led the league in batting average.
How about comparing Cy Young awards to MVP? Three for Koufax, one for Mattingly. Hell, Koufax has as many MVP awards as Mattingly!
It is ignorant statements like these being made by southerncards that cast such a negative light on yankee fans. To say that Mattingly was as dominant in his era as Koufax was in his is absolutely, positively ignorant. There are no other words to describe it.
I understand he's your favorite player, but damn, man, look at the numbers objectively. Don't pick out a random stat like 300 strike out seasons (but if you want to, Koufax has 3 times as many 300 K seasons as Mattingly led the league in batting average).
<< <i>
Mattingly just didn't put it together long enough to merit induction. >>
Well said!
Case closed
I liked Mattingly but you cant argue with the facts.
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Having restated that Ax, you have got to be out of your damn mind to think Wade Boggs was a more dominant offensive player than Mattingly. Boggs was a slap hitter who used the green monster as his personal step child, slapping everything off it for yrs. He had zero power, zero ability to take over and dominate a game as Mattingly did in his prime. Throw in the fact that Boggs spent the better half of his prime being a mediocre fielder at best as well as a guy who didnt have 1/100th of Mattinglys leadership qualities. Boggs is in the hall because he was able to sustain his gig long enough to get to 3,000 hits.
-- Yogi Berra
ps that boggs /mattinlgy comparison in last post was right on! MATTINGLY LEAD LEAGUE IN OPS 4 years in a row, boggs never came close..OPS is the best stat to gauge a hitters true abilities...
and by the way, I dont see Boggs being the batting coach for the bosox now, is he?
IN 4,950 at bats at home and on the road for his career here are Bogg's lines...
HOME BA .342, OB% .442, and SLG .491
AWAY BA .302, OB% .387, and SLG .395
Playing in a home park other than Fenway for his career, it isn't out of the realm to expect him to be a career .307 hitter with .397 OB%, and .401 SLG%. Nice numbers, but not as pretty as they look now.
For your sake I hope there is a telethon in your immediate future.
Someday, we may find a cure.
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<< <i>Boggs had 7 straight 200 hits seasons, that is pretty impressive. Mattingly did not have 7 good seasons. People should not be put in the hall just because they played for the Yankees. If Koufax had played for the Yankees nobody whould even think twice about him being in the hall instead we would hear how unhittable he was. Jim Rice was more dominate than Mattingly and he is having a hard time getting in. It is amazing how Yankee fans push Mattingly, Guidry, Munson and no doubt we will have Bernie "Adequate Baseball" jammed down our throats on day. Nobody would even care about Reggie Jackson and his garbage stats if he had not played for the Yankees. MO VAUGHN had more good seasons than Mattingly. Stop the Yankee madness. Ok NY players are not great and are not automatic hall of famers. >>
There is NO question that being a Yankee already puts you about 50% closer to the hall than someone else with similar stats. It is not usually enough to get you IN, but it does not hurt.